Jericho, effectiveness of hasty militias

[cheygriz]

Sticking STRICTLY to the OPs Jericho scenario, would you rather have a bunch of untrained people out there with un-zeroed rifles, or with baseball bats?

Even a NEW York City "soccer mom" is going to be more effective with an AK-47 than a baseball bat or butcher knife.

And BTW, MOST small town and farm folk from rural Kansas are quite proficient in handling rifles, including knowing how to zero them.

And in the Jerico scenario, they are fighting another untrained, undiscipled militia, not a professional army.

 

[Kaylee]

It sure was an interesting presentation, but yeah, sucky leadership in the initial defense. But I guess that's not unrealistic.. people do stupid things when they're put in new situations sometimes.

Seems to me what they really needed was to organize their militia months ago, rather than just assuming everything would work out okay. More than anything, I think they needed an honest-to-gosh sniper corp put together.. in all that open country, seems there's no excuse for running up to "whites of their eyes" range when it looks like near everyone has access to a scoped deer rifle.

It is kinda neat seeing more "real" weapons pop up as time goes on. I liked seeing the M1As. Looked like a great choice for all that open country.

-K

 

[Boats]

Yeah, they should have been raiding the county animal shelter by now. Cat stew would be preferable to starving.

I also love that the local salt mine is such a bone of contention. It's been a little early to run out of Morton's. Maybe their salt is such a rapidly needed trade commodity worth fighting and dying over because other folks need to make salt licks for livestock or de-ice some backroads?

Curiously there is no shortage of ammo for all of the missing that has been going on.

Jericho would have been better if it were written in a much darker tone, not stuffed to the gills with cliches done better elsewhere (Troubled father/son relationships/retarded love triangles/silly political struggles).

The show should have been on FOX in the 2100 time slot with about half of the characters cut, more character development spent on the main characters, and people dropping like flies in a world where life is cheap and the law is what you can make of it. Jericho should be set in a dog eat dog world, but it has too much Golden Retriever puppy in it to survive as is.

 

[Patriot-Brewer]

As Kaylee said, the arrival of M14's means things should start turning for the better.

 

[Leanwolf]

It's just a soap opera, folks.

In Hollywood, very, very few writers, directors, actors, or producers, have ever served in the military. They know nothing about military tactics and weapons -- or most any other kinds of firearms -- other than when they buy a couple copies of "Soldier of Fortune," or a book or two from Barnes & Noble, or buy a copy of the monthly "Guns & Ammo."

I watched some of "Jericho," but could not take the premise that "evil, right wing reactionary, red necked, power mad, malevolent capitalist pigs" who had gotten nukes and nuked the entire metropolitain areas of the United States. Plus, the absurd idea that the "good guys" are the communist and socialist countries who air drop supplies to the worker peasants out in the boondocks. You know, the good guys from China, Germany, places where socialism and communism are the great saviour ideologies of the world.

That plot line or premise, has been done on teeeveee and in the flicks a couple thousands times. Gets kinda old, to me.


Oh well... it's show biz, boys & girls.

L.W.

 

[MudCamper]

Jericho is both refreshingly cool and monumentally stupid at the same time.

That about sums it up. It's a network TV show, and as such comes with all the lame plot elements and terrible hollywood gunplay, but it's in a post-nuked fractured Armerica, which makes it very interesting.

 

[sacp81170a]

One thing that often gets ignored in military scenarios on TV and in the movies is that bullets penetrate. Yeah, yeah, I know, paintball training is a lot of fun, but IMHO I feel that it feeds some non-combat effective behavior that must be trained out of a unit in order to survive on the battlefield. As marksmen in the civilian world, we have the "see your target before you shoot" rule drilled into our heads. In a combat situation, lead flying in the direction of the enemy can be effective even if you can't see who you're shooting at. Fire superiority is the name of the game. Massed fire in the same direction is more effective against an enemy than waiting to see him and trying to take a bead on him. Effective officers and NCO's know this, and they know how to direct the fire of their forces to achieve the most effect on a battlefield. Shoot something, but above all, shoot!

In this scenario, effective leadership and fire control are more effective than trying to teach everyone to become a sharpshooter all of a sudden.

 

[Limeyfellow]

Investing in a good machinest and chemist would be as helpful as anything. Then you can put together IEDs and mines with a little knowledge.

You could work on other defensives along with it. They have a hospital, moonshining operation, gravesites and so on so you should be able to put something together.

A proper barrier around the town is a must in these Jericho siturations. Even if its around one small area of vital interest. If they had a year to build up defenses and know there are dangerous gangs out there and haven't invest in some earthworks its kind of lazy. You probrobly want some bunker type operations built from shelter from mortars.

Raid the nearest military and police installations if they still survive. I wouldn't use chemical or biological weapons they have there. They are just too dangerous and theres a good chance you wipe out a fair number of yourself too. Artillary fire, machine guns, transports for quick movement around the town for reinforcement. You could find a whole bunch of stuff in the National Guard Armory here in town. What you get out of it in the end will really vary though. Again a good machinest and chemist would really help make up supplies here.

Of course you can't forget the important growing food. You need crops and water obtained otherwise you are going to starve fairly soon. Without that it doesn't matter how well armed you are.

 

[tmajors]

Of course you can't forget the important growing food. You need crops and water obtained otherwise you are going to starve fairly soon.

Crops take time to grow unfortunately. For a Jericho situation long term food storage is HIGHLY nessecary, including crop seed. Eat storage while crops grow, eat crops and store extra, eat storage, rinse/repeat. Learn how to get new seed from crops.

No matter how you feel about the LDS Church one thing they have right that I don't think anyone can deny is 1-year food/water supply.

 

[bdutton]

Someon mentioned that Jericho had an Abrahms MBT. Did't the fake soldiers get secretly disarmed and had to march out of town with the tank?

I recall in the episode two weeks ago the girl 'soldier' who reappeared mentioned that a tank doesn't go very far without gas.

 

[Boats]

No matter how you feel about the LDS Church one thing they have right that I don't think anyone can deny is 1-year food/water supply.

Yeah, but I have heard the crack that Mormon households in a true SHTF scenario are more like convenience stores as they have tied themselves to hard to move larders and many of them don't bother with guns anymore like their pioneering forebears did.

 

[TonyB]

They kept the tank and put it in Stanley's barn..I wonder if they'll use it in the finally?
I like the show..for network tv,I am surprised it doesn't take a MORE touchy feely,guns are bad slant.A major plot point seems to be the need for guns.I fear the show will not return though,due to all the gun control talk lately.Plus the main star is named SKEET(Ulrich)gotta love that......is his brother named TRAP?

 

[tmajors]

many of them don't bother with guns anymore like their pioneering forebears

Me thinks if people think that in my area they gonna be in for a suprise. Your right though, many LDS think about the food/water but don't think about other stuff like guns and ammo. Think it has more to do with the area of the country then anything else. My area the ammo is right next to the buckets of grain.

 

[MrDig]

I was Impressed with the show to this point, I have some misgivings as was pointed out it is a Hollywood Soap Opera.
The first episodes were the ne'r do well son attempting to redeem himself with his father amidst the Baloon going up and his own PTSD issues. So the "Super Jake Episodes" have some merit in that respect.
I like Gerald McCreney as an actor and always have. Even if his personal life was a tabloid fiasco for a time.

 

[Caimlas]

My wife and I have been watching Jericho fairly religiously. Sometime after Wednesday @ 10pm Central but likely before the weekend, we'll sit in front of the computer and watch it.

In such a situation, what's the worth of such militia compared to a guy or gal who'd already had a rifle he's familiar and capable with - 4:1, 10:1? If he can engage them out at 200 or 300m with ease, that's a large advantage. But in general, would the hasty militia be best used in offence or defence, and likewise for the trained riflemen?

I'd say at least anyone who's done much hunting could, adrennaline not withstanding, hit a man-sized target at 100 - 200 yards with a scoped rifle without much effort. In Kansas, I imagine at least 80% of the male populace has had at least recreational trigger time at 100 yards by the time they're 16. From what I hear, they hunt a lot of deer there...

If I were to organize such an affair, I'd give the best marksmen (with the most mettle) the weapon of their choice with a preference for rapid target acquisition and elimination, and then work down from there. Those who can reliably hit a 6" target at 50 yards get the 'extra' rifles, and everyone else is either relegated to pistols or simple support. Ideally, you could assess marksmanship quality by asking them (quickly) questions like, "How many deer have you bagged, and how long did you generally have to track them?" or "How large is your typical group at 100 yards and how long have you been shooting?" - et cetera - and then assess their basic stances.

ETA: Put everyone in 5 or 6-man such groups and have them practice moving and covering together, and I think you'd be able to drastically improve your overall fighting chance by a significant margin. ALl the more so without modern comm methods.

I'd also do a quick, improvised training course if time allowed with .22LR rifles, 50 rounds scoped and 50 rounds unscoped, for anyone of questionable marksmanship. YOu may get a couple positive surprises.

(I'm probably going to mention a spoiler or two here, for those who haven't been paying attention to the show...)

For those who haven't seen the show, all the episodes are available from http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/ (Flash and WMP and/or RealPlayer req'd)

Something I noted is that while they were in the storage shed, all the rifles were "assault" weapons: M1As, M16s/AR-15s, M4s, AKs, and I think I may have seen some FALs/G3s. However, not a one was an 'assault' rifle except for the one that Farmer Boy (what's his name) took out - what looked like an SBR AR of some sort. They were all scoped bolt actions and lever guns. The "good guys" very rarely have anything but "hunting rifles" in that show, and it's irritating.

Also, when they tried to ambush the mortar team in one of the last two episodes, they moved in from 100 yards. Uh, what? A bunch of Kansas good ol' boys who have been trained to be "Rangers" (or at least from the Ranger handbook) made a frontal attack, starting at 100 yards, instead of flanking and opening fire? I doubt there are all that many Jim Bobs out there who couldn't make a 100 yard shot with a scoped rifle if given the time to make it, from cover.

I guess I've got some pretty big problems with the plot and general directing. I mean, c'mon - in the firefight in the latest episode, guys were grouped closely together within 50 yards of their enemies (body to body, almost) and werne't getting hit, while a group of 15 or so guys just run down the road from behind and take them out. Dumb.

As for their overall tactic of taking on Newburn? Let's see: you've got a town with industrial capacity for munitions and is manufacturing mortars to shell your town. Do you a) try and take out the mortar trucks and form a militia, taking out small groups, operating mostly defensively, or b) form up in a similar fashion, but instead organize to attack with the M1A Abrams MBT you've got hidden in a barn (whether you've got munitions for it or not, it'd make a nice mobile firing platform)? Seems like a no-brainer to me!

EDIT: Oh yeah, and they've got a freakin' small-yield nuke. If worst came to worst, and all that, at the least they could put it in the tank and drive it there on a one-man suicide mission. "Withdrawl your troops and mortars or your town gets it!"

Generally, the show is pretty poorly thought out, and it's little more than poor quality "survivalist porn".

It's just confounding that two towns very close to each other would evolve two drastically different mindsets in such a short period of time, given similar happenstance.

 

[Mannlicher]

Jericho is a stupid, insipid make believe show written by hollywood folks that know nothing of militias, guns, nuclear weapons or even science. I am surprised that anyone watches it at all.

 

[MrDig]

Also the reason the British had a problem in both wars with us is we knew the turf and they didn't. Citizen Soldiers with Huntin Irons whupped em good.
Same holds for Today. I chalenge you to find a person in a small rural town that can't shoot at all. Some shoot very well. The trick is training people to do the unnatural, Take a Human Life. The Military struggles with this, it is psychologicly unnatural to take a human life and they have to train you to do it. In a "Jericho" environment this will be a little less of an issue as personal survival will usually win out over the urge to save a human life. Those who cannot overcome it will not survive to procreate and therefore not be an issue.
In Nature the herd would cull itself through predation and disease, unfortunately for the Human herd in this situation the herd would be culled through the "Ya aint from round theseparts are ya?" filter.

 

[Caimlas]

Alternatively, they could modify the MBT's tube to fire the captured mortars. I doubt that'd be too difficult, and they'd at least be able to figure out a rough 'we want to destroy that building/truck/etc. 50 yards away' type aiming mechanism. They'd not need that many mortars to make it effective (arm it with 50 of 'em and go joy riding through the neighboring town - you'd do a mighty large amount of damage).

 

[Titan6]

Well since you asked and didn't really get a lot of solid answers

Anyone watch that? It was pretty good.

Fair. I don't watch much TV. I am working when the show is on so I watch it on the computer when I can. It certainly is better than about 90% of the rest of the nonsense on TV.

I'm wondering about the end scene where they were handing out rifles to everyone without. I don't think I've ever had a rifle that I could shoot straight right away, they all needed to be zeroed. If a bunch of people are given a bunch of rifles they've never shot before, immediately before having to use them in combat, at what ranges could they be effective?

That really depends on where the sights are. Very bad decision to hand out the rifles the way they did. Probably a third to a half of the people don't even know how to use them. The sights would vary from dead on to way, way off.

With an unfamiliar rifle, lots of stress, and a rifle that you don't actually know shoots straight or not, maybe 50m would be a reasonable distance to expect the militia to hit targets? Would that be a case where you see an authority telling them to hold fire until they can see the whites of the enemy's eyes?

For trained soldiers in combat accuarcy drops about 75% on average. For untrained soldiers I would say somewhat more then that. Range varies greatly.

In such a situation, what's the worth of such militia compared to a guy or gal who'd already had a rifle he's familiar and capable with - 4:1, 10:1? If he can engage them out at 200 or 300m with ease, that's a large advantage. But in general, would the hasty militia be best used in offence or defence, and likewise for the trained riflemen?

Untrained versus trained typically the advantage is given at three to one. Even a small amount of training can make a huge difference though. If the other town had even trained professionally for even a few days at small group tactics they would be miles ahead. This does not include leadership however. Leadership is generally the single most important factor towards victory in any military engagement. A bad leader can assure defeat every time.

Lastly, if they'd had a .50BMG rifle, at roughly what distance would a decent shooter have been able to put holes in the mortar tubes?

That depends on a lot also, such as what the tubes were made out of and what kind of ammo was being shot. The mortars appeared to be down in a depression so line of sight would have been the issue.

P.S. I like how there weren't sparks flying off everything that was hit!

Also no flat tires? Come on it is TV...

 

[lacoochee]

Given how unorganized they are I am surprised they weren't cleaned out immediately.

How is it that a town of four of five thousand doesn't have at least a cadre of 100 or so vets? I live in a town of 900, and there are 4 vets of fighting age on my road of 12 houses, not including myself. Hell, my best friend from college who spent 6 years as a SEAL, live 3 miles down SR52. Maybe military service is a Southern thing, but I seem to remember a lot of guys from the midwest while I was serving, very few yankees though.

I still like the show though it's one of the few where the second amendment is made such an obvious necessity.

 

[Leanwolf]

TONY B - "... A major plot point seems to be the need for guns.I fear the show will not return though,due to all the gun control talk lately."

Tony B, if the show's ratings are good -- and I haven't checked them -- the show will be back.

Network shows live and die on ratings. Good ratings mean lots of advertisers. That means big bucks.

If "Jericho's" ratings are in the toilet, however, then the show will be cancelled. Simple as that.

L.W.

 

[Saiga39]

Jericho

The show has gotten better this year. Darker too. CBS didn't know how it was going to go over so when uit renewed for the 2nd season, they brought in some new writers.

I would have thought that all those storage units where Hawkins had all his weapons stored would have long been broken into to see what was in them.

I also thought that when they started handing the guns out, they would have called for those with prior millitary expirience to come forward first to get the AR's, rather than just giving them out to whoever.

Without sounding to whacky, it has made me interested in hooking up with some military vets for some more tactical type training. Or may I should just outright pay for it. I've seen a number of news articles recently about gang graffiti showing up in Iraq and about members of the religion of peace training with paintball guns here in the US.

My state has a State Guard that I've thought about joining.

Would it shock anyone if something really bad happened someday??

 

[highdesert]

I have a love-hate relationship with Jericho. I wish it was grittier, like "Deadwood" on HBO, but all things considered it's fairly interesting. It's a little disappointing how reactive the town is. I haven't seen any episode show them doing anything significant to improve their situation or defenses. Maybe trading for windmills, but that's about it. And everybody looks too well groomed...

 

[Lucky]

When they start showing women with mustaches, you'll take that back.

 

[LoneStranger]

Show is a Least Coast, Left Coast, Hollyweird, New York City misconception of Kansas and its people.

Mostly written without reference to any maps or other geographical concepts.

But between Ft. Carson, CO, Ft. Riley, KS, Ft. Leavenworth, KS and a host of other places the concept does not match to well with reality.

Watched first 3 episodes then stopped because gross stupidity offends me.