Jessica's Law - Good idea?

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People defending the "rights" of child molesters and rapists....wow....
Post the language of the proposed law that ensures that it only applies to forcible rapists and dirty old men who have sex with little children and I bet you will get unanimous approval.

The reservations that have been expressed are about the liberalization of the term "sex offenders." Check YOUR state law's definition of "sex offender" or "sex offense" and you will probably be surprised.

Can you provide evidence of even one case in which someone has been successfully convicted under such circumstances?
I don't have a handy citation for a public urination case, but Google "Fitzroy Barnaby" for the story of the guy who was convicted of the sex offense of "restraint of a minor" for grabbing a girl's arm and yelling at her after nearly hitting her with his car when she stepped in front of the car.
 
Beethoven said:
Does that mean that we shouldn't do anything at all unless it is absolute perfection?

Funny...I seem to remember that we actually *were* doing something, and ironically, it isn't perfect.

No one is saying that this is a horrible idea, but it has some wrinkles to it that *some* of us really aren't comfortable with. Lets explore those a bit, my friend, before we start a huge beauracracy to monitor folks for the rest of their lives.

I don't hang out here too much because of the decidedly leftist/militant libertarian slant and this post I've quoted above is a shining example of this garbage. :barf:

People defending the "rights" of child molesters and rapists....wow.....:barf:

I defend the rights of CITIZENS. Period. No need to thank me, I'll keep doing it long after you have given up on the "leftist" stuff on this board.

Actually, i personally vote for either putting them in prison until *they are no longer a threat* to society, or (if it just seems like putting someone is prison for 80+ years hurts your pocket book) just killing them outright.

I really dislike the idea of "You are free to go...but not really." "You served your time and by the dictates of law are no longer a threat...but not really."

If the folks are still a threat, don't release them. That *is* the role of prisons in our society, isn't it?

I see that you see no problem with trampling the civil liberties of anyone caught in an ever-expanding net, but I have some questions...questions that your post doesn't answer.

I do so love being called a "leftist" (your term, not mine). :rolleyes: Seems like you would be more comfortable with an echo chamber.

As for the general tenor of discussion on this board: We ask questions. A LOT of them. I would have thought you would be used to it.

Sorry for making you :barf:
 
I don't hang out here too much because of the decidedly leftist/militant libertarian slant and this post I've quoted above is a shining example of this garbage.
Wow...just...WOW. Well Beethoven, if you don't like the answers you're getting, perhaps you should not have asked the question.:rolleyes:
After much thought on this subject, I believe that the law should view adult citizens as one two types: Free or Un-Free.

The Un-Free people are behind bars. The Free people are everybody else.
+1
 
pauli said:
i tend to be of the opinion that if it were a good law, they wouldn't have had to name it after a dead girl to get sympathy.

ding ding ding ding ding!!!!!!
 
I don't hang out here too much because of the decidedly leftist/militant libertarian slant and this post I've quoted above is a shining example of this garbage.

People defending the "rights" of child molesters and rapists....wow.....

So why did you post this at all? To get opinions on the petition, or to get pats on the back and "attaboys" for sticking it to the sex offenders?

It has been pointed out to you that nobody here has a problem with punishing sex offenders, but that the definition of the word "sex offender" is far too broad and inclusive. That's a valid point of concern that ought to be addressed before we start applying such a label on people, especially when the punishment that goes along with the label is as severe as it is.

That's not "militant libertarian slant". That's a valid point of discussion and a concern to a lot of people. You simplify the debate into equaling opposition to this measure to "defending child molesters", which is not only unfair, but also binary thinking that is unworthy of an educated and reasonable mind. I'm pretty sure you can debate on a higher standard than that.
 
This is a pretty aweful abuse of due process. Once you've completed your sentance you are a free man. Placing extra laws in place like this effectively levies punishments against a person that were *not* placed by a jury.
 
Now think about this...

There are many people who, for some insane reason, really WANT to live in a police state. Perhaps Americans have become too comfortable and don't realize, as I do and as Oleg Volk does, what it really means to be oppressed by a totalitarian government.

So listen up.

They want to control you. It's pretty hard to start by controlling everyone, so they start with certain people who are in the minority and can be easily stereotyped into some straw man.

For Hitler, it was Jews (among others). For Mao or Pol Pot, it was "decadent intellectuals".

For American authoritarians (left and right) it is...

Drunk drivers
Criminals who use guns
Rapists and child molesters

No one wants to defend them, of course. So it's easy to move the bar...

Drivers "under the influence", which can now include 1 drink 2 hours earlier in some cases -- they call it "zero tolerance" in my state
Gun owners with "assault weapons", which defy definition of course
"Sex offenders" who have not forcibly raped anyone, or had sex with a child, or even had sex with anyone

Now, how hard do you think it is to go from that to...

Drivers -- you're on the public roads, we have a right to track your every movement with GPS
Gun owners -- hell, we let you have that shotgun, now you need to come in for a psych eval annually (and that kind of psych is NOT a science, BTW)
Males -- When I was in college, all men were called rapists, by "serious" writers and professors in the social sciences.

Think about this... This is not about sex offenders; it's about slipping in high-tech Big Brother. It's just easier to do that because no one will "defend" sex offenders, even though that now may include people who have never done anything that an average person would consider wrong.
 
Beethoven said:
- Prohibit sex offenders from living within 2,000 feet of any park or school
Will be used to ghettoize sex offenders. In many areas this will block more than 90% of possible housing for them. Most will still have a car, allowing them, if they choose to prey on children, to do so quite fine. I walked, as a child, more than 2,000 feet to elementary school many times. Heck, I even experienced a potential abduction attempt(I ran). The closer catholic school and a park would be what would disqualify my parent's house. Now, I'd be more in support of this if it was restricted it to the 'Class III' type offender who's targeted actual children (15+ statutory doesn't count). Of course, I'd rather support just keeping those freaks in prison for life, or executing them along with the murderers.
- Require lifetime GPS monitoring of felony registered sex offenders
Looks like a better idea as it restricts itself to felons. Still a problem as felonies are a dime a dozen today. I'd rather see the monitoring restricted to those who fit the 'predator' profile.
- Expands the definition of a "sexually violent predator"
I'd want to see what the old and new definitions are, along with the studies used to draft the new, hopefully more accurate definitions. Until then it's just too vague for me.
- Changes the current 2 year involuntary civil commitment for a sexually violent predator to an indeterminate commitment, subject to annual review by the Director of Mental Health & petition by the sexually violent predator for conditional release or unconditional discharge.
Court review? Trial by peers? Are there going to be advocates to ensure that the Director doesn't just 'throw away the key'? Is this process for those who manage to get 'not guilty by reason of insanity'?
Clearly, these seem like good ideas, but I was wondering if there is any argument against this proposed law.

Well, you asked for it. Out of the four terms, I find only 1 to be meritorious. 2 more may be salvaged with proper modification. 1 is iffy until I get more info.

Beethoven said:
Can you provide evidence of even one case in which someone has been successfully convicted under such circumstances?
Michigan will become one of 39 states to post pictures. Since 1999, the state has been posting the names, addresses and date of birth for people who have been convicted of sexual crimes such as rape, statutory rape or multiple charges of public urination.
Beethoven said:
No, they can't live next to me because I'm well within 2,000 ft. of both a School and several parks.
Ahh, so you're happy about this because they won't be able to live close to you. In places where this has passed, I've seen neighborhoods do things like open parks, daycare centers, etc, to force them to live elsewhere. If we expect reformation, we have to provide some opportunity to live a law-abiding life.
NO, I have NO PROBLEM with expanding the government's powers to punish and control sick, twisted, sadistic CHILD MOLESTERS and RAPISTS.
Like what every post has said, we're not worried about the hardcore pedophiles, we feel that a life sentence or execution is the correct course of action for them, not release. We're worried about the drunken urinators, the streakers, the guys convicted of dating a girl a couple years too young 20 years ago.
Is this law perfect?

No.

Is it the best possible solution to the problem?

Of course not.

Does that mean that we shouldn't do anything at all unless it is absolute perfection?

I don't think that is reasonable either.

But we should attempt to make a law that is as good as possible. We should avoid passing 'feel good legislation'. We've analyzed the proposed law, as stated by your post, and find that it appears too vague and overreaching to fulfill it's stated purpose without major overhaul.

Besides, you asked us to find fault with it. Don't yell at us for doing so. Use our comments to write up suggestions for improvements. We've seen, with guns, far too many ineffective, stupid, and restraining 'feel good' laws passed to stand idly by for another, whatever it's intended purpose.

Our question, to ourselves, is "Will it work?" I think it won't for the most part.

I don't hang out here too much because of the decidedly leftist/militant libertarian slant and this post I've quoted above is a shining example of this garbage. :barf:

People defending the "rights" of child molesters and rapists....wow.....:barf:

What? Advocating imprisoning for life or shooting them in the head is defending them? Well, you learn something new every day...

"It's for the children!" and it's varients have been bandied around far too much in the context of gun restrictions for us to take any such proposal at face value. Remember that libertarian's default view is to limit government power, not expand it. We ask ourselves if the law will be effective, will it interfere with citizen's rights, etc... This law fails the test to be effective, for the most part, and definitly will interfere with people's rights.
 
walking arsenal said:
I'm starting to have issues with the title "sex offender". It seems, to me anyway, that it's getting to be a more liberal term. That people are starting to consider smaller and smaller things a sex offense.

Dunno, maybe it's just me.

Same here.

I have no problem with the above for violent rapists, and people who are obviously have sex with children say 14 and under.

However I definately think its ????ed up for some 17 or 18 year old kid to have his life ruined because he had sex with his 15 or 16 year old girlfriend. Or for someone of either sex to flash someone else as a joke.
 
This is a horrible idea once you translate it to english. Substitute "someone caught peeing in public" for "sex offender." These laws pretend to be aimed at rapists and pedophiles, but I think this is a shotgun with a very loose choke. The only people that will benefit from this in the long run are future generations of tyrants.
- Prohibit sex offenders from living within 2,000 feet of any park or school

"Sex offenders" cannot live within any urban or suburban area. Either you live in the back woods or you get arrested for a felony. Good luck driving to get groceries. Check out the Gun Free School Zones Act of 1994 for the near total blanketing effect of 1000 feet school zones. Oh wow, add in parks and that is probably everywhere in the country. Are they going to have to live on reservations like indians?


- Require lifetime GPS monitoring of felony registered sex offenders

This will allow us to realize economies of scale in tracking people in addition to establishing a tracking infrastructure. Once the technology is cheap and widely available, expect real abuses. What pet project could the government accomplish with tracking technology next? Look in your gun safe for the answer!

- Expands the definition of a "sexually violent predator"

The only power the government has is to control criminals. We will get around to you sooner or later.

- Changes the current 2 year involuntary civil commitment for a sexually violent predator to an indeterminate commitment, subject to annual review by the Director of Mental Health & petition by the sexually violent predator for conditional release or unconditional discharge.

The 5th, 6th and 8th amendments are for pinkos. Criminals dont deserve due process or fair punishment. Once you get on our blacklist, you disappear forever.
 
Beethoven said:
I don't think that sex offenders (not ones caught urinating in public....real ones) should be allowed to become parents.
Problem is Beethoven, the ones caught urinating in public ARE real sex offenders according to the law.

Now, do you want to rethink your attitude?

Its not unlike the current federal laws which make it illegal for anyone convicted of a crime the BATFE considers a felony losing their ability to own firearms. Note the careful phrasing by the way - there are people who were convicted of MISDEMEANORS who have had that right taken away because the BATFE considers it a felony.
 
here are plenty of reasons why the title of "Sex Offender" is getting to be ridiculous...

http://www.geocities.com/eadvocate/issues/harm-register.html

I love, the quotes about Barnaby (car guy) from the court...

'While acknowledging it might be "unfair for [Barnaby] to suffer the stigmatization of being labeled a sex offender when his crime was not sexually motivated," the court said his actions are the type that are "often a precursor" to a child being abducted or molested.'

Well, owning a gun is a precursor to murder, so we had to lock up those gun owners!

ohh and who knows what you could be thinking!!!

'because of the proclivity of offenders who restrain children to also commit sex acts or other crimes against them." In the criminal case against him, Cook County Judge Patrick Morse said that "it's more likely than not" Barnaby planned only "to chastise the girl" when he grabbed her, but "I can't read his mind."'
 
walking arsenal said:
I'm starting to have issues with the title "sex offender". It seems, to me anyway, that it's getting to be a more liberal term. That people are starting to consider smaller and smaller things a sex offense.

Dunno, maybe it's just me.
I agree.

I don't know if the ages vary by state (probably somewhat), but in principle if a high school senior "does it" with his/her sophomore girl/boyfriend, it is likely statutory rape even though the act is 110% consensual and voluntary on the part of both participants. When I was in high school, such activity was considered fairly normal and natural (if not wholly encouraged by parents, especially parents of sophomore girls).

That same natural, normal, basically healthy expression of sexual maturing today gets the older kid branded as a "sexual predator." As long as that's the case, I cannot support laws such as the one being proposed.

Sanctions against and punishments for sex offenders should be reserved for the true sexual predators and not applied to a vast pool of kids doing what kids naturally do.
 
Jessica's Law seems to be going a bit overboard. I guess according to some states laws, I might be considered a sex offender as I've taken a leak in a dark corner after a night out drinking(I'm sure most guys have done this once or twice). I'll be damned if I have to wear a GPS unit for the rest of my life for that. Plus, there are varying degrees of sex offenders as previously mentioned. There is that grey area in high school, say when a senior is dating a sophmore. Whatever stuff they are doing behind closed doors would be legal one day, and illegal the next. Say said girls father caught them in the act and decided to press charges. Now the guy gets branded as a sex offender for the rest of his life, because statutory rape is a felony conviction, he has to register, wear a gps unit, and have all these restrictions placed on him. Hardly fair I think.
 
If you think becoming a sex offender for urinating in the public is scary, how about this:

You are lying on the beach, and a pretty lady passes by in a skimpy bikini not really covering her a$$. You are wearing simming trousers of course, but a bodily reflex lets Mr. Happy try an uprising. Presto, the lady and you are now sex offenders in Clark County Indiana! And you are a felon " if prior unrelated conviction".


“A person who knowingly or intentionally appears in a public place in a state of nudity commits public nudity, a Class C misdemeanor.

Class B Misdemeanor if “with the intent to be seen by another person.”
Class A Misdemeanor if on school grounds, in public park, or with intent to arouse on DNR property.
Class D Felony if prior unrelated conviction.

"Nudity" means the showing of the human male or female genitals, pubic area, or buttocks with less than a fully opaque covering, the showing of the female breast with less than a fully opaque covering of any part of the nipple, or the showing of covered male genitals in a discernibly turgid state.

What crime has been committed?: Urinating on side of road; Streaking or flashing; Sex acts in public; Nude in front of picture window.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/police/03updates.htm


Other things to think about:

A pretty lady offers you sex, and you don't run away immediately. You then find out she is an undercover cop playing prostitute.

You are in an internet chat room. Lady lovely gets you into a sex chat, and you propose doing some kinky things. What you don't know is that she's 14.

You have a vacation in Miami beach with your girl friend and share a hotel room.

"798.02 Lewd and lascivious behavior.

If any man and woman, not being married to each other, lewdly and lasciviously associate and cohabit together, or if any man or woman, married or unmarried, engages in open and gross lewdness and lascivious behavior, they shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/florida/

Or how about posessing six or more sex toys in Texas!
http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/texas/

Looks like it doesn't take much to become a sex offender.
 
"798.02 Lewd and lascivious behavior" - shouldn't that be void-for-vagueness? I wonder if anybody has been charged with that in the last several years.
 
Beethoven said:
I don't think that sex offenders (not ones caught urinating in public....real ones) should be allowed to become parents.

Let's go back to your third point for a moment:
- Expands the definition of a "sexually violent predator"


Not knowing exactly what the existing law is in your locality, I'm pretty sure that the EXISTING law covers what is a "sexually violent predator." The new law proposes to expand it, therefore it follows that (in any combination):

1. stuff that isn't currently considered "sexual"
2. stuff that isn't currently considered "violent"
3. stuff that isn't currently considered "predatory"

MUST be included. Based on that alone it's a bad law.

There is no legal distinction between "peeing in public or exposing part of a breast once" and "raping every baby in the county repeatedly." Bad law.

GPS, annual reviews more than 2 years after release and expanding from 1000' to 2000' are Ex Post Facto for existing offenders. Bad law.

Do we really need to continue?
 
A pretty lady offers you sex, and you don't run away immediately. You then find out she is an undercover cop playing prostitute.
You are in an internet chat room. Lady lovely gets you into a sex chat, and you propose doing some kinky things. What you don't know is that she's 14.

cant be too sympathetic to either of those scenarios. for starters, if the lady that offers herself to you is 'pretty', theres a good chance shes a cop. second, unless you discuss a transfer of monetary funds for sexual favors, theres no crime. remember, that undercover cop is going to be wired and you will be on tape. so will she.

as for the other one, show me the 'normal' person that would be an innocent victim of that. get real.

as far as the concept that these rapists and molestors have 'paid their debt' simply by serving jail time, i'd accept that if you could prove that they leave jail rehabilitated.
since that cannot be done, (for that matter, the rehabilitation of criminals is virtually nonexistant), can you say they have 'repaid society'? does 5 or 10 or 15 years pay back the crimes committed? of course not. therefore, i cannot get on the platform of those who preach that 'its too much punishment'.
 
Beethoven said:
I recieved in the mail a petition to sign to help get "Jessica's Law" put on the ballot for 2006.

According to the materials included, it will:

- Prohibit sex offenders from living within 2,000 feet of any park or school


- Expands the definition of a "sexually violent predator"

First ones not gonna help in any way at all. Theyll do it anyways.

Second is a mjor problem- For accidently bumbing into a girl at a bar my friends brother was labelled a sex offender.
\
WHat we need to do instead is offer stricter penaltys for sex offenders and take more that just a females word for it that she was harrased.
 
spacemanspiff said:
cant be too sympathetic to either of those scenarios. for starters, if the lady that offers herself to you is 'pretty', theres a good chance shes a cop. second, unless you discuss a transfer of monetary funds for sexual favors, theres no crime. remember, that undercover cop is going to be wired and you will be on tape. so will she.

as for the other one, show me the 'normal' person that would be an innocent victim of that. get real.

So you want those measures listed broght upon men who went to a prostitute ?
 
Peeing in public makes one a sex offender in Arizona. I know a guy who was convicted of this for drunkenly peeing in the alley behind a bar. He was able to take some sort of class to get it expunged.
 
wingnutx said:
Peeing in public makes one a sex offender in Arizona. I know a guy who was convicted of this for drunkenly peeing in the alley behind a bar. He was able to take some sort of class to get it expunged.

Is that just in urban areas, or can you be convicted for peeing on a trail, too?

If so, my wife and I have committed horrible offenses in Arizona!
 
So you want those measures listed broght upon men who went to a prostitute ?
thats a topic for a different day, perhaps on a different board. however you cant play the helpless innocent victim when you knowingly violate a law.
 
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