John Lott sues "Freakonomics" author Steven Levitt

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Hasn't Lott's work been throughly discredited by scholars?
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Vast overstatement. There is one study of his that has some major questions about it. His other work has been tarnished by association, but "thoroughly discredited" is off the mark.

Agricola, I am so surprised to see you chime in on a thread about John Lott ;)
I think the comparison to David Irving is a bit stretched. Lott's move to sue may turn out to be a bad tactical decision, but Lott's work does not belong in the same category as holocaust denial.
 
Academics should win based on the strength of their reasoning. For Lott to bring the court system into this only discredits him. Academic reasoning is stronger the more it can stand up to scrutiny and attacks.

From my informal impressions and observations, it seems like gun control and CCW has little impact on crime one way or the other, although statistics don't tell the whole story and shouldn't be the only factor in making decisions.
 
Food for thought: RKBA is a "right". It does not need to be justified by statistics to be upheld.

Absolutley. Suppose, hypotheticly speaking that statistical proof showed without any doubt (remember I said this is hypothetical ) that CCW increased the crime rate/murder rate (PLEASE note I am not saying it does, this is a hypothetical discussion ). If the data showed that would anyone want CCW to stop? I sure would not. The right to self defense is not based upon statistics.


John Ross is a far better writer and proponent than I shall ever be for firearms rights. ( If you have not read UC Get it and read it! he sums it up far better than I can

THEY SAY: “If we pass this License-To-Carry law, it will be like the Wild West, with shootouts all the time for fender-benders, in bars, etc. We need to keep guns off the streets. If doing so saves just one life, it will be worth it.”



WE SAY: “Studies have shown blah blah blah” (FLAW: You have implied that if studies showed License-To-Carry laws equaled more heat-of-passion shootings, Right-To-Carry should be illegal.)



WE SHOULD SAY: “Although no state has experienced what you are describing, that’s not important. What is important is our freedom. If saving lives is more important than the Constitution, why don’t we throw out the Fifth Amendment? We have the technology to administer an annual truth serum session to the entire population. We’d catch the criminals and mistaken arrest would be a thing of the past. How does that sound ?

NukemJim
 
I wasnt comparing Lotts' views with Irving's - should have explained it better.

Basically (for those who didnt know already) David Irving famously sued an author who claimed he was a Holocaust denier, and ended up being permanently and very publically labelled as one as a result of his own action.

In the same way my view was that Lott, for whom there is an awful lot of areas that even a mediocre lawyer could use to make him look a fool, could end up being shamed despite bringing the case himself.

Hope that clears it up.
 
Agricola, guns arent a magic switch that turns off crime. Crime is a very complex phenomena. I'm sure you realize this. In the US at least, crime is mostly confined to a few bad neighborhoods in a few cities. Regarding CCW, there is a negligent effect on crime in many states because:
-they already had a form of carry before they got concealed carry. Many states have had legal open carry since they were founded. Obviously concealed carry isnt going to reduce crime much when everyone was carrying before the law.
-they didnt have a severe violent crime problem, so few people were at risk without a conealed weapon
-they had a severe violent crime problem, but the people in the high crime areas couldnt take advantage of the carry laws, so none of the at-risk people became less at risk due to people elsewhere carrying but still avoiding their neighborhood.

To reduce crime from existing levels, CCW has to result in either:
a) criminals encountering carrying victims where they previously encountered unarmed victims. If the only places that carry after the law were already protected in some way (by geographical isolation or effective police patrols), crime wont be affected.
b) high visibility self-defense shootings that reinforce the legality of the act and also advertise that seemingly vulnerable targets are actually armed due to a recent law.
In both cases, criminals have to perceive a change in the status of their victims and be aware of the increased cost (in the form of risk) of attempting to transact a robbery or murder. If crime is already low or the victims participating in the violent crime "market" remain vulnerable, crime will be unaffected.

It dropped in Florida because
-Florida had a severe violent crime problem in the 80s, there was no carry except for politicians. The Florida murder rate had been much higher than the national average (about 50 percent higher on a statewide basis).
-When the law was passed, it made permits shall-issue and made car carry no-issue. Many people began carrying immediately after the law went into effect. There were highly publicized shootings of carjackers and robbers shortly after this, and it had an immediate chilling effect on criminal behavior.
 
Beerslurpy,

I agree with you - thats the same point I have been making almost every time someone (which includes Lott btw) comes along and claims that the reason crime is rising in the UK is because of any one of a number of gun bans.

I remind you again that the issue many people have with Lott is not because of his message, or the message of his detractors (as has been pointed out here, Levitt is pro-gun), but rather that he has used/is strongly suspected of using dubious methods to "prove" his point. You can illustrate this by contrasting him with someone like Gary Kleck, who is widely respected.
 
I found Freakonomics to be a vary weak piece of work academically. It was full of un-supported assertions. Lott's work is in a whole different ballpark. HE provides data to back up all of his points.
I listened to the audio book of Freakonomics, so maybe I missed out on a lot of footnotes, but it doesn't seem to have even presented itself as an academic work. It is a piece of popular science writing that attempts to convey that economics is about incentives and people, not just about inflation and fiduciary whatsits. So comparing it (which is a watered down summary of Levitt's research career) to Lott's book (an academic work on a single topic) doesn't really make sense.
That said, making direct assertions about someone else's research without anything to back it up isn't very tasteful, regardless.
 
I'm not aware of a single instance in which a permitted handgun
has prevented a crime on the books in Minnesota since we got our shall
issue law.

What book would a prevented crime show up in? Who keeps statistics on
crimes that do not occur?

Wright's survey of 1874 convicts showed that 34 percent rcounted
incidents of planned crimes that were cancelled because the intended
victim was found to be armed with a gun. Now, would a survey of
victims by Kleck, Lott or anyone get a response that the victim had
successfully been defended by the presence of a gun, if they were
unaware that a planned crime had been canceled?
 
Sorry, I was mistaken about Lott's complete discrediting. But many scholars have discredited him because of the incident. Anyone that does something like that might be looked at differently than someone who actually has some scruples.
 
Well, everyone makes mistakes, the ones that get caught and have a popular agenda wedged against them get crucified for it.
 
Henry,

Are you saying Kleck isnt respected? Most the things I have read about him are positive - indeed a google search only brings two negative things on the first page, one a sanctimonious review from the Harvard School of Public Health, and one detailing a Mr. John Lott's aversion to Mr. Kleck.
 
update

University of Chicago student newspaper the Maroon:

Freakonomics claim sparks defamation lawsuit

By Kim Velsey

April 21, 2006 in News

John Lott, Jr., a former visiting professor at the University filed a defamation lawsuit on April 10 against economic professor Steven Levitt, co-author of the New York Time bestseller Freakonomics

Lott said the book misrepresents his work on guns and crime, according to court documents. The lawsuit does not name journalist Stephen Dubner, though he co-wrote the book with Levitt.

Freakonomics, which melds Levitt’s economic essays with Dubner’s flowing prose, remains high on the bestseller list. The book’s success, however, may have prompted the legal action, as the lawsuit references the popularity of Freakonomics as a factor contributing to Lott’s damaged reputation.

The lawsuit states that the book “damages Lott’s reputation in the eyes of the academic community in which he works, and in the minds of hundreds of thousands of academics, college students, graduate students, and members of the general public who read Freakonomics.”

The contested material is on pages 133–134 of Freakonomics, in which Levitt writes that researchers have been unable to confirm Lott’s conclusion that right-to-carry gun laws actually reduce crime.

Freakonomics states, “Then there was the troubling allegation that Lott actually invented some of the survey data that supports his more-guns/less-crime theory. Regardless of whether or not the data was faked, Lott’s admittedly intriguing hypothesis doesn’t seem to be true. When other scholars have tried to replicate results, they found that right-to-carry laws simply don’t bring down crime.”

According to the lawsuit, Lott acknowledges that his findings have come under scrutiny in the academic community, but he maintains that he used “different data or methods to analyze the relationship between gun control laws and crime.”

The lawsuit states that scholars who have replicated Lott’s work have achieved the same results. “Every time that an economist or researcher have tried to replicate [Lott’s] results, he or she has confirmed Lott’s conclusion.”

Carl Moody, a professor of economics at the College of William and Mary, said he successfully replicated Lott’s findings and published the results in 2001. Moody said Levitt’s accusation is wrong.

The lawsuit, which also names Levitt’s publisher HarperCollins, states that the publisher acted with malice by failing to verify the statements. It seeks a court order to halt sales of Freakonomics until the statements are retracted or amended and also demands that Levitt and HarperCollins pay unspecified monetary damages.

HarperCollins would not comment on the lawsuit, but a company representative said, “HarperCollins Publishers firmly stands behind Freakonomics and its authors, Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner.”

The ABC show 20/20 featured Freakonomics in an hour-long special on April 14. However, there was no mention of the lawsuit, and Levitt has yet to comment on it publicly. The book’s website, Freakonomics.com, which has Levitt’s and Dubner’s weblogs, includes a brief mention of the pending litigation.

“While we were away [in London promoting the paperback edition of Freakonomics], the economist John Lott filed a lawsuit claiming that Freakonomics has libeled him,” wrote Dubner on his blog.

Lott’s website made no mention of the lawsuit.

The lawsuit has opened up discussion on the veracity of Levitt’s claims and whether a lawsuit is an appropriate forum for an academic debate.

The litigation has also shed light on what can happen when an academic book attains blockbuster status.

“Most academic debate is so trivial no one would care,” Moody said. “If the book had appeared and no one had bought it, it wouldn’t be an issue. But Levitt is accusing this guy of falsifying his results in front of millions of people.”
 
Sidetrack:
I wonder if agricola would agree that "crime is rising in the UK in spite
of
any one of a number of gun bans"? rather than because of?

The reason we pick on UK is because the US gun control movement
in the 1950s and 1960s credited the perception that UK had a lower
crime rate due to the strict gun laws starting with the British Firearms
Act of 1920. Plus Rebecca Peters of IANSA is seen as a British
(OK Australian) export seeking to impose UK style guncontrol in the
US via UN which we find Unacceptable. UK gun control did not lower
the crime rate in UK, if I read Colin Greenwood correctly.

To the thread:
Hasn't Lott's work been throughly discredited by scholars?
Shortly after Lott's More Guns, Less Crime was originally
published, Lott provided the datasets for his studies cited
in his book to thirty-seven researchers: thirty-four got
similar results, three got minor differences. John Donohue of
Stanford and Ian Ayres of Yale did a regression of Lott's data
that they claimed proved More Guns, Little or No Effect.
As law professor James Lindgrem pointed out, Johm Lott has been
open about sharing his raw data with critics, and you don't do
that if you deliberately miscode your results.

Lott's serious problems are citing a statistic derived from a
solo survey lost in a harddrive crash: that harddrive crash
affected at least five co-authors on other projects: four
co-authored projects were delayed as the data sets were
reconstituted from backups and hardcopy; one co-authored
project was canceled because the dataset could not be
recovered. Then Lott like a DAMF cited his solo survey as
the source of his 98% brandishing only DGU statistic
knowing the dataset was not available for criticism.
Then when he could not post as "John Lott" without
getting flamed on the internet, he started using an email
account based on the first letters of his sons names MaRyRoSh
and family members posted favorable comments about his
books at amazon.com as MaRyRoSh. Dumb and distracting
from his serious work, in that it allows dismissal of all his
work under the falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus doctrine.

That would be like totally discrediting someone over their use
of the term "baited breath" instead of "bated breath."
attachment.php

If we have to be perfect, then none of us have any value.
 
Carl,

Firstly, as anyone in the UK would be able to tell you, the 1997 and 98 gun bans could not, would never have, and were never intended to lower the crime rate. Pre-1997 England and Wales had a hugely strict firearms control system, so banning handguns (for which you required a s1 licence anyway, and couldnt carry loaded or unloaded in the street except locked away) in an effort to reduce crime doesnt make sense.

Why it did happen is, like the 1968 and 1988 Acts, is because the Governments of the time wanted to react to a public outcry following a mass shooting (in 1968 it was the murder of three Policemen in West London, in 1988 the Hungerford Massacre) in the way Governments usually react to public outcries - more legislation and banning of objects.

All of which is what Colin Greenwood has shown, though you are right to fear you arent reading him correctly. Greenwood explains it best:

"The British Government seeks to make the most of the confusion caused by its change of statistical recording methods claiming that the ban on handguns may have had some small effect. Some commentators have claimed. that the use of handguns in crime has increased by some staggering amount from the moment that handguns were banned. Neither claim is true. The ban on handguns has been a total irrelevance and underlying crime trends have continued unchanged now that only outlaws have guns."

[from: http://www.pierrelemieux.org/greenwood-citizen.html ]

Why would banning a small number of legally held objects responsible for a (statistically speaking) miniscule amount of crime, almost all of which involved illegally held objects anyway, have any effect at all on the overall crime rate?


Which sort of brings us to John Lott. Your summation of the charges against him are simplistic to say the least, but while we are on the subject of the UK it is as good a point as any to begin. Lott apparently believes that the ban in 1997 has some responsibility for the rise in violent crime (for which as regular readers of UK-themed posts will know, there are very many actual causes):

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200508190817.asp

For the reasons already listed above, this is a deeply flawed conclusion. What makes it worse is he makes the same claim repeatedly:

http://www.americandaily.com/article/1340

Or makes new ones up (as he does below- I defy and will reward the finder with cold, hard, Pay Pal cash any one of you to find the piece of legislation he claims exists that "makes it a felony to use guns defensively"), as well as peddling the old ones:

In 1996, Britain banned handguns and also made it a felony for people to use guns defensively.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/3/chapin/chapin10.html

When one sees such behaviour carried on by a man who ought to know better then it makes one rather more ready to believe the claims of Lambert and others, claims which are far too numerous to be listed here but which can mostly be found off his blog:

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/

As for the overall effect of guns on crime-rates, I rather think that Greenwood and the NAS are correct when they say there isnt any rise or fall in recorded crime as a result of gun control legislation.

Of course, to start making that argument is to make the error of assuming your possession of firearms is dependent on, and justified by statistics, instead of it being a right.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
UK gun control did not lower the crime rate in UK, if I read
Colin Greenwood correctly
agricola said:
.... you are right to fear you arent reading him correctly ....
Colin Greenwood said:
As Posted by agricola:
The ban on handguns has been a total irrelevance and underlying crime
trends have continued unchanged now that only outlaws have guns.
Duh. Hunh? Hummm. What?

OK, although UK gun control has been billed as crime control for fifty years
or more that I have been aware of the issue, the UK government purpose
was not was not crime control. Therefore, apparently,
the lack of effect on crime is irrelevant.

So what was the purpose of UK gun control?

The legal justification usually given for gun control is crime control;
Tennessee State Constitution Section 26, and state attorney general
opnions and supreme court rulings: the state may regulate arms, but
cannot restrict or prohibit the citizens's right to keep and bear arms
for self defense and other lawful uses: in 1996 the requirement for
liability insurance for carry permits was dropped as unduly restrictive
of self defense rights. Regulation of arms must be with a view to
prevent crime, else it has no legal standing in Tennessee.

Why would banning a small number of legally held objects
responsible for a (statistically speaking) miniscule amount of crime,
almost all of which involved illegally held objects anyway, have any
effect at all on the overall crime rate?

That goes to my original confusion: what was the reason to ban them?*

Of course, to start making that argument is to make the error
of assuming your possession of firearms is dependent on, and justified
by statistics, instead of it being a right.

Ah, but statistics are used to justify restrictions, as well as to
defend rights, but then statistics are not something I would totally
depend on either--

The Numerical Reliability of Econometric Software, McCullough
and Vinod, Journal of Economic Literature, Vol XXXVII, Issue 2, 1999.

The Vancouver Stock Exchange started an index at 1,000.000
which was recalculated after each transaction to the nearest
.0001 then truncated to report only the last three decimal
places. Within a few months the stock index had dropped to
520.000 due to constant rounding down. When properly
calculated, the actual stock index was found to be 1098.892
(Toronto Star, 29 Nov 83).

______________________________________
* "Banning legally held objects responsible for ... crime, "
Semantics, semantics: "banning legally held objects similar to
those used by other people actually responsible for crime." The
objects were not responsible for diddley squish. The people whose
legally held objects were banned were not responsible for the
crimes either. "now that only outlaws have guns." The problem
is Rebecca Peters will get my gun like Carrie Nation will get my
Guiness Stouit: when she pries the empty from my cold dead
fingers.
 
Kleck is more careful than to publish a result after losing a survey;
does not engage in overly simplified one-page op-ed pieces
and has never been caught using a ridiculous pseudonym.
 
Carl,

That goes to my original confusion: what was the reason to ban them?*

It was contained within my original post:

Why it did happen is, like the 1968 and 1988 Acts, is because the Governments of the time wanted to react to a public outcry following a mass shooting (in 1968 it was the murder of three Policemen in West London, in 1988 the Hungerford Massacre) in the way Governments usually react to public outcries - more legislation and banning of objects.

My point about you not reading Greenwood was that you only referred to half of his findings - that gun control did not lower crime in the UK - when it would be more correct to point out that he found that gun control had no effect on crime levels at all.

Finally, I dont see what relevance the law in Tennessee is to this debate, since we are at this juncture talking about crime levels in the US. What gun control in the UK has been billed as in the US is also irrelevant, because its not been painted as "crime control" in the UK (which is of course far more relevant, it being here and all) since at least 1987 and probably since 1968 - as I mentioned above, the reason nearly every piece of legislation has been brought in is as a reaction of the "this must never happen again" kind.
 
Kleck is more careful than to publish a result after losing a survey;
does not engage in overly simplified one-page op-ed pieces
and has never been caught using a ridiculous pseudonym.

Kleck is more careful than to publish inaccurate surveys, he doesnt engage in factually wrong one-page op ed pieces and has never used pseudonyms.
 
what was the reason to ban them?

The overall crime rate in Britain is likely dropping after the gun-ban. Ironically, however, gun-crimes themselves are up. The issue was discussed more or less ad nauseum on this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=156343&highlight=britain+crime+rate

Guns should be had by the people for the means of shooting other people who get a bit too intrusive.

Getting into an argument about their use in crime is dangerous. There is almost no reasonable way of scientifically testing the "guns prevent crime" hypothesis and therefore little reasonable way of it being proven.

However, arguing like John Lott does attempting to generate, at best, a tenuous association, legitimizes the debate point of relating gun-rights to crime. Opponents can then argue that guns are linked to more crime or worse more violence (which you will invariably be able to show somehow as guns tend to kill people, sometimes children, and a plethora of cute furry animals) you risk losing people who don't understand the difference between association and causation and go with the visceral desire to avoid violence.
 
That goes to my original confusion: what was the reason to ban them?
Their reasoning was:-
(i) "We control guns for the same reason that we control explosives and strong poisons; because they are dangerous."
(ii) "We cannot identify any changes to the present system that will achieve any substantial improvement in public safety. All those tweeks have already been done. As the choice lies between doing nothing and a complete ban, then a ban it will have to be."
(iii) "This change is necessary to maintain public confidence in the system of firearms control in this country."

At that time the Major Administration was limping towards its close, and the Government's majority in the House was wafer thin or non-existent. The Scottish Secretary, Michael Forsyth, (who was coincidentally the MP for the Dunblane area) reportedly said in Cabinet that if he didn't get a complete ban then he would have to resign and vote against the Government on the principle of the Bill, otherwise he could not hope to survive the next election. This would have been a heavy blow to John Major; defeat on an important Bill would reinforce the impression of a government which could not even get its own Bills through the House (a much more serious consideration in British politics than US ones) and quite likely would precipitate the fall of the government.
 
On the 1997 UK handgun ban:
- The government purpose was not a reduction in street crime.
- The government purpose was to show that they did something
about mass shootings.
- The government purpose was to quell outrage by 700,000 possible
voters over actions by Thomas Hamilton by sacrificing the rights
of 54,000 licensed handgun owners.

The media and politicians have generated the expectation that
gun bans will dramatically reduce crime; this expectation
goes back to gun control advocates (in the USA including Carl Bakal,
Robert Sherrill, Nelson Shields, Sarah Brady, Et Alia.)
Irregardless of the purpose of a gun ban, people are conditioned
to want to know: what was the effect of a ban on crime.

I can not blame John Lott for that expectation, since it was
widespread before Lott began researching or publishing.

Also, since UK gun control is used as a model by US control
advocates, it is relevant to me. I did download and read the
enture Greenwood article. He is still worth reading.

On UK self defense law:
There is no 1996 law specifically outlawing self-defense with a gun.
I can blame Lott (or at least the editor of that column) for
referencing a non-existant law. Gary Kleck, Donald Kates and
James Wright are meticulous about details and do not do the
popular media, where you are oftem lucky if your name is
quoted appoximately.

There were a series of gun laws in 1996, 1997 and 1998 generating
public confusion. The Crown Protective Services in January 2006
issued a pamphlet outlining UK self-defense rights, in large part
because UK media, politicians and quasi-government sources like
Mothers Against Guns funded by the British Home Office, had
muddied the issue to the point there was mass confusion and calls
for clarification of the law.

Self protection is not legally accepted as a reason for police
issue of a certificate to buy and possess a firearm in the UK.
Use of firearms in self-defense is subject to limitations that,
first, force used in defense must be porportional to the threat,
and second, use of weapons is limited to "something at hand."
If the something at hand is a teargas spray or a handgun, since
teargas spray and handguns are banned, use leads to a felony
five year sentence for illegal possession, but not for use in
self defense. Conceivably, one could be justified in use of an
illegal weapon on grounds of self-defense, but go to prison
for possession of an illegal weapon.

Plus news like this does not help clarify the UK issue:
Burglary victim to go to jail (January 19th, 2005)

From South London Press:

THE victim of a vicious armed burglary is facing jail after
confessing he kept a gun at his home "for protection".

Steven Chapman, 47, told police from his hospital bed the
.32 pistol was put through his letter box with a note reading,
"This may help". . . . .

The assumption was that Steven Chapman must have been a bad person.
I mean, he had a gun in his home for protection and he got beat up.
As the 2006 CPS pamphlet pointed out in general: "Things are not
always as they seem. On occasions people pretend a burglary has taken
place to cover up other crimes such as a fight between drug dealers."

Then a news item 15 Feb 2005 detailed that the burglary victim
Steven Chapman--a bodyguard--had disputes with dangerous people in
his role as security for foreign royals. He had been "gifted" a gun
after threats against his life. Chapman was pistol whipped by home
invaders: the beating may have been related to his security contracts.
He admitted to police that he had an illegal handgun in his home
for protection, even though the gun was not involved in the incident.

The Home Office imposed a mandatory five-year prison sentence for
illegal possession of a firearm. Under the Criminal Justice Act,
judges do retain some discretion, and the sentence against Chapman
was drastically reduced. Lucy Cope, head of Mothers Against Guns
(which was funded--I repeat--by the British Home Office), protested
that Chapman should have gotten the full five years, not six months.
(I wonder if Cope was speaking for Mothers Against Guns or for
the British Home Office?)

Sparks (Ireland) said:
Also, the right to self defense in England IS completely
stripped away depsite all your arguments to the contrary.
Codswallop.

Had (Chapman) had a 12-guage pump-action shotgun loaded with buckshot,
there'd be no charge against him. But a .32 pistol is illegal to
own in the UK at the moment (unless you're in Northern Ireland),
and that's the charge he's guilty of. It's got nothing to do with
his right to self defence, which is intact and untouched.
- - - - - -
Amongst the 11 cases tried in the past 15 years in the UK where
someone claiming self-defence was actually tried (according to
the CPS), you had cases like a teenager being shot for stealing
an apple from an orchard, and another where a burgler was knocked
unconcious, tied up, and then set on fire.

Points that seem clear to me:

One, lawful self defense cases in UK are not publicised: the
exceptions get publicity.

Two, self defense is not a legal justification for a UK gun certificate.
(Under the New York Sullivan Act self defense is the only legal
justification for permission to purchase and possess.)

Three, cases like Steven Chapman getting six years for handgun
possession do get publicity, lotsa publicity.

Four, public statements like Mothers Against Guns supported by the
British Home Office re-enforce the impression self defense with a
gun in UK deserves drawing-and-quartering in the public square.

I have given teargas spray to a girl for her defense, and helped
arm another couple with a revolver that was used to chase off a
home invader. Teargas spray or revolver would be illegal weapons
in UK; but apparently if I advised them to keep a spray can of
oven cleaner or a "skeet gun" with #00 buck handy, that would
meet the UK legal "use of something at hand" as a weapon if the
threat justified a that level of force. Geez.
Compared to oven cleaner or buckshot, teargas spray and pistol
bullets are more humane and less lethal.

BTW can you keep a poker by your electric fire, just to have
at hand as decoration, of course, not as an intentional weapon?
 
Carl,

John Lott passes himself off as a statistician, he doesnt get a pass as to following the herd and thinking the 1997 bans were a part of crime control because - if he had done any research - he would have found that they were nothing of the kind. I'd also remind you again that the post-Dunblane measures were never intended as "crime control", which you looked like you had found out given your first three findings. Those three findings are the sum total of what and why the 1997 and 8 Acts were brought in, the bits about how it was reported in the US are an irrelevance, given that these were UK legislation, brought in due to concerns in the UK.

Also the issue of the Crown Prosecution Service re-issued the guidelines solely because (as you state later) the issue had become (deliberately) confused in the public consciousness by widespread media scaremongering (but not "Mothers against Guns") that began with the Tony Martin case. The same media elements (as you note) hyped up and twisted other cases, and eventually the issue was seized upon by the Conservative Party who introduced a Private Members Bill, which was - along with the media campaign - swiftly killed by the reminder issued by the CPS, though not before the then Tory leader (Michael Howard) had to admit he couldnt name one case of someone being sent to prison for defending themselves.

On your end-post comments:

i) Self-Defence is not a reason to get a s1 or a shotgun licence, it is however a reason to get a s5 licence (which covers handguns). Over here the law is different than US law (as I understand it) as the Police over here have a duty of care when made aware of a threat. The threat has to be proportionate but there are s5 licences issued when there is a clear risk of harm to an individual (historically these have almost always been given to people on one of the "death lists" periodically seized off Northern Irish terrorists);

ii) Chapman got six months, not six years - thats a typo, given that you had the right figure further up the post. I'd also warn you away from reading to much into what was after all a defence argument - as Chapman pleaded guilty much of the prosecution case against him was never heard, especially the "gun fairy" parts;

iii) "Mothers Against Guns" is not supported by the Home Office (except when it would be politically expidient to do so). In fact the CPS is controlled by the Home Office and so they are partly responsible for re-emphasising the nature of self defence in the UK. The idea that self-defence is illegal in the UK is a product of our media, desperate Tory politicians and some of the more stupid pro-gun crowd over in the US.

Finally, I could have a gladius, spear, pugio or mace next to my fire, kept there solely for the use of defending my home against burglars - possession of such items within the home is not covered by any law in the UK, nor is their use in defending oneself.
 
Dang, I had the PDF of the Crown Prosecution Services pamphlet
open. Could have used the text select, but relied on my blundering fingers,
and forgot my main rule: Preview, Edit, then Post.

Typo: Chapman was sentenced to five years, reduced to six months.

The idea that self-defence is illegal in the UK is a product of
our media, desperate Tory politicians and some of the more stupid
pro-gun crowd over in the US.
More from the anti-gun crowd in the US.
 
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