John Roberts is Bush Pick for SCOTUS

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I share your concerns about stare decisis. It has no place on the Supreme Court. The Constitution should be freshly considered in each and every case. Otherwise we do not live under the rule of law, but under the rule of men in black, unrestrained by the law. That said, considering the arguments and reasoning behind the decisions of prior justices is always appropriate, but those prior decisions should not be binding in the least if their reasoning and arguments were not based on a strict construction of the constitution, and on the original intent of the framers.
Agreed.

And a key element of that is consideration of the original intent. Which should rule out re-interpreting the Constutution on the basis of changes in the meaning of words and phrases that had clear meaning at the time they were written.
 
Actually, I was about to click the "Report this post" button and apologize to the moderators, but it seems the button is not available to report your own posts.

:shrug:

I won't mind if my post is deleted by the moderators ... as long as all other posts relating to abortion in this thread are similarly deleted.
 
Two words -- EARL WARREN.

The Congress should have withheld funding from the courts when the courts started to create law out of whole cloth.

Now it has gotten to the point where Justices like Anthony Kennedy are looking at international law and changing public opinion to give us law --

'It does not lessen our fidelity to the Constitution or our pride in its origins to acknowledge that the express affirmation of certain fundamental rights by other nations and people simply underscores the centrality of those same rights within our own heritage of freedom.' -- Anthony Kennedy

More here.
 
Roberts participated in a July 15 decision by a panel from the Washington, D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals upholding the Bush administration’s claim that the president can designate any individual as an "enemy combatant" and detain that individual indefinitely. The July 15 decision also assented to the administration’s claim that the president can create special military tribunals to conduct trials of enemy combatants, rendering decisions that are not subject to judicial review of any sort.

The Constitution specifies that Congress, not the president, can create federal courts inferior to the Supreme Court.Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez applauded the Appeals Court’s decision. "The president's authority under the laws of our nation to try enemy combatants is a vital part of the global war on terror," stated Gonzalez, claiming that the ruling "reaffirms this critical authority."

In fact, that decision deferred to a Bush administration putsch. By creating a court, the administration poached from the exclusive legislative powers of Congress; by claiming that the president can "try" anyone, the administration usurped the powers of the judiciary. This new doctrine of presidential authority effectively consolidates in one individual executive, legislative, and judicial authority. As Madison (quoting Jefferson) pointed out in The Federalist, number 48: "The concentrating of these in the same hands, is precisely the definition of despotic government."

Ah, a fan of locking up Mr. Padilla, I see. I agree with the above, and I would add that the administration gets to define what an enemy combatant is before becoming both prosecutor and judge for the crime they created. Defining the crime is a legislative function.

Richard Jewel is lucky they screwed him over when they did. These days, he'd just be locked up without explanation until there are no more terrorists in the world, or he died, whichever came first.
 
Ah, a fan of locking up Mr. Padilla, I see. I agree with the above, and I would add that the administration gets to define what an enemy combatant is before becoming both prosecutor and judge for the crime they created. Defining the crime is a legislative function.

Actually, the case Roberts issued a decision on had nothing to do with Padilla... it was Hamdan vs. Rumsfeld (PDF).

Hamdan, who had been captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan and was reputed to be bin-Laden's driver, essentially claimed that a military tribunal had no authority to try him or to determine whether he fit into prisoner of war status.

The decision Roberts signed (and linked above for those who would like to to read the full text) says basically that:

A) A military court is a competent tribunal to determine whether or not he receives prisoner of war status under the geneva convention
B) Hamdan is subject to the authority of a military tribunal
 
Thanks for the link, which I finally got around to reading. In the Hamdan case, I agree, but it is kind of unclear exactly what you do with the guy. He's not a soldier, so no POW status. He's not a civilian either, so no civilian courts. He's a terrorist. Different rules apply.

Well, that leads us to Mr. Padilla. He's a terrorist, or so they say. Unlike Richard Jewel, there is some evidence against him, or so they say. There's also evidence he's too darn stupid to be much of a threat, or so I say.

This whole "enemy combatant" business, where an individual is suddenly outside of all existing legal systems, and subject only to people who ultimately answer to the President alone, worries me.
 
This whole "enemy combatant" business, where an individual is suddenly outside of all existing legal systems, and subject only to people who ultimately answer to the President alone, worries me.
Yup! and congress is once again late to the fight. We need definitions to be created and existing ones clarified. Right now we have Bush, congress, media, courts, blissninny organizations, NGO's and Brownie Scouts competing for 6 second sound bites. Congress could do something positive and define the varying permutations and combinations of combatants. We are in a war with no geographical bounds and an enemy beholding to no state yet supported and encouraged by some states. We simply can not use definitions created in WWII in describing what we face now.

Once again congress needs to act and once again we get hot air. :fire:
 
We are indeed in a different war. Bill Whittle on his blog, Eject! Eject! Eject! wrote this two part essay on "Sanctuary". This is a definite read for anyone, regardless of political persuasion.

The filthy (non THR to the 15th power)'s we are engaged with don't respect anything, anyone, or have any human decency. If they want to be inhuman, I say we can meet them on their field.

I'm from Missouri, and I believe that payback should be exponential for any wrong. (we have another quaint saying for that, but also non THR).

However, we cannot be in a nannystate to do that (pay attention Blue Staters). THE UN IS NOT COMING TO OUR RESCUE. The UN are child molesting, bribe mongering, unelected POS.

I'm not happy with the loss of privacy and other rights. I think the bad guys win. But... I'm willing to put up with the temporary loss of some freedoms, as long as we make these slime pay for their crimes.

What I will not tolerate is the stupid "politically correct" "no racial profiling" crap. A quick trip on the web will show you a picture of the latest London "bombers". Guess WHAT? They are not 60 year old Polish grandmothers... We have to stop this "diversity" BS. I believe in diversity. I have a 45, 9MM, .22, and 38. Who is more diverse than that???

</rant>
 
I'm willing to put up with the temporary loss of some freedoms, as long as we make these slime pay for their crimes.

Which freedoms? For how long? Who must pay for which crimes, exactly, before we get them back? I mean, we're going to get them back, right? So we should know when.
 
Which freedoms? For how long? Who must pay for which crimes, exactly, before we get them back? I mean, we're going to get them back, right? So we should know when.

I don't buy into those arguments which are concerned about the supposed loss of "freedoms" and when we will get them back. An anecdotal story... from first person discussion with satellite recon people in top executive positions over thirty (30!) years ago... at that time we could read the label on a Russian's cigarette (not the pack, the cigarette!). Just how much information do you think we have the ability to get now??

I don't trust government, especially in the hands of socialists. Over 100 million people killed in the 20th century by their own governments bear witness. Most of those people were unarmed. I am armed. Guess what, I know my government knows I'm armed.

The bottom line is we have not been attacked yet here. Why? Every once in a while you see a news story where a bunch of (non THR adjective) scum are picked up. Do you think they don't want to hit us again? You know they do.

I'm not saying they can't, but I am literally amazed that they haven't yet. Maybe our "loss of rights" (which I haven't noticed much) has helped.

The whining blissninnies in NY who don't want their bags looked at make me ill. If they don't want their bags checked, take a cab. If they were getting on an airliner they would be checked, why the hissyfits about their backpacks full of tofu? (I guess the Birkenstocks are next ... the horror).

Oh .. and back to "we should know when". When it is over. When will that be? Who the hell knows?
 
The Real Hawkeye wrote:
Interestingly, as a matter of law, both of those cases were decided correctly. We don't like the outcomes that this fact signifies, so we say they were bad decisions. Actually, Dred Scott was overturned not by a revisit of the decision, but by the post Civil War Amendments to the Constitution.
You have said that the Supreme Court should address matters based solely on the Constitutional import. Some, here, have said that the Supreme Court's sole role is to interpret the Constitution.

The Supreme Court did not address one of the fundamental Constitutional Issue with which it was confronted -- Dred Scott's right to be free -- and focused instead on the slaveowner's property rights. Because Dred Scott was not a "citizen" he had no right to sue in any court! The minute the Supreme Court ruled that Scott (as a slave) had no standing to sue in court, everything else went out the window. He was not a citizen and therefore was not able to benefit from the protection of the laws. I suppose that using that reasoning, had his master chose to kill him, the master could not be prosecuted, either -- as Scott was not a citizen of the state?

As best I can tell, the Supreme Court, in the Dred Scott case, came by its decision using arguments based on precedent, common law, and statutory law. It was not fundamentally a pure application of Constitutional law.

The Court refused to uphold one of those fundamental (unalienable) rights which, I think, you have said in times past the Constitution should recognize and protect (liberty)-- and protected, instead, a slaveowner's property rights. This was done at the expense of Dred Scott's (unalienable?) right to life and liberty.

From the decision:
The rights of private property have been guarded with equal care. Thus the rights of property are united with the rights of person, and placed on the same ground by the fifth amendment to the Constitution.... An Act of Congress which deprives a person of the United States of his liberty or property merely because he came himself or brought his property into a particular Territory of the United States, and who had committed no offense against the laws, could hardly be dignified with the name of due process of law....
No real applicaton of the Constitution, here. They're just sustaining legal custom, precedent, and statutory law.

Need I call attention to the fact that the "property" in question was a man? And that the right of property was given PRECEDENCE over the right of "person" in this case? Why should property be valued greater than liberty? (Because prior law had ruled that the "person" wasn't really a person, of course. Statutory law and precedent...)

Saying that it was decided correctly, as you do, implies that that you accept that the Supreme Court can ALSO decide cases on other than solely Constitutional matters.

I think it can and does -- and I think that is a matter that many participating here ignore or simply don't understand.
The Supreme Court must and does do more than just interpret the Constitution.

The fact that the Court frequently, when confronted with a Constitutional issue, refuses to hear the case for any of a number of technical reasons, is continuing evidence of that fact. (One might ask how can a "technical" reason overcome a compelling Constitutional concern? They can't, unless the Justices consider those technical pratices equally important to our system of law.)

Happily or unhappily, the Supreme Court acts within the framework of a legal system that dates back hundreds of year before the Constitution, using practices and customs that, if overlooked, would destroy the rule of law and lead to chaos.

That same chaos would occur even in a Court that strictly adhered to "Constructionist" or "Structuralist" values, but ignored the underlying structure/system that makes the Constitution's interpretation and application possible.
 
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That's all fine in principle, Walt, but the Court is only now in token ways testing the water of deferring to Congress when it should. Otherwise, they make the law, and I wouldn't accept that such is their intended or chartered purpose. The last thing I would do is be an apologist for the Supreme Court, but it is useful to understand how they should operate. How they actually operate is a different matter.
 
Which freedoms? For how long? Who must pay for which crimes, exactly, before we get them back? I mean, we're going to get them back, right? So we should know when. - publius

Spurious martial law is like a tax that never gets repealed.
 
Walt, the Dred Scott Supreme Court was giving priority to the Constitution. That's what a Supreme Court is supposed to do. It is not up to the Supreme Court to change the law. The Justices might have been personally in favor of changing the law, but correctly believed they lacked the "just power" to ignore the Constitution.

Dred Scott argued that he was free because at some point he was brought into a state in which the US Congress had legislated that slavery was illegal. When Congress passed that law, it was in violation of the Constitution, because the Federal Government only has those powers granted to it by the states (read the Tenth Amendment), and it was never granted the power by the states to determine which states could and which states could not have slaves.

This was the basis of Dred Scott's suit, and theirs was the correct decision regarding the powers granted to the Federal Government by the Constitution. Remember, the Bill of Rights was a restraint on what the Federal Government could do, not on what the States could do. Only after the nonsense of Fourteenth Amendment "incorporation doctrine" did you see anyone suggest that the Bill of Rights limited the States as well (Which, by the way, threw a Monkey wrench into what was a delicately balances system of checks and balances). Dred Scott preceded the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Dred Scott desicion was good law with a bad outcome, but it is not a Supreme Court Justice's job to make sure that all outcomes are good in their personal judgments. Their job is only to examine the four corners of the law, and tell us what it actually says regarding each case before them.
 
Real Gun wrote:
That's all fine in principle, Walt, but the Court is only now in token ways testing the water of deferring to Congress when it should. Otherwise, they make the law, and I wouldn't accept that such is their intended or chartered purpose. The last thing I would do is be an apologist for the Supreme Court, but it is useful to understand how they should operate. How they actually operate is a different matter.
First, I was NOT justifying Supreme Court misbehavior which, like most here assert, has been happening. I agree that they've misbehaved.

Second, if they ONLY interpreted issues in light of the Constitution, without regard to long-established legal practices (things like relevance, standing, or proper procedure), you'd REALLY see a Court run wild. What's to keep them from scooping down to lower courts and overruling bad decisions -- or, more frighteningly, decisions they just don't like. If they don't have practices in place, standards, and customs, you really have a tyranny. They become, not a Court of Last Resort, but a Star Chamber, prosecutor, judge and jury.

I'm not defending them.

I'm simply saying the Supreme Court's role is not as simple as JUST interpreting the Constitution. Questionable legal decisions, law, and illegal practices have to first pass through a filtering process before the Court can even rule -- and without that process (which is based on Common Law, tradition, Statutes, etc.) -- the chances for tyranny are even greater.
 
THR wrote:
This was the basis of Dred Scott's suit, and theirs was the correct decision regarding the powers granted to the Federal Government by the Constitution. Remember, the Bill of Rights was a restraint on what the Federal Government could do, not on what the States could do. Only after the nonsense of Fourteenth Amendment "incorporation doctrine" did you see anyone suggest that the Bill of Rights limited the States as well (Which, by the way, threw a Monkey wrench into what was a delicately balances system of checks and balances). Dred Scott preceded the Fourteenth Amendment.
If the Bill of Rights did not, at that time, apply to the states, why was the Court ruling on the slaveowner's RIGHT to keep his property? They certainly addressed that directly, as I showed in the quote. above?

The Court said that Dred Scott was not a citizen of Missouri. He had no standing in Missouri court. He was property. Yet its clear that he was a native-born American and resident of Missouri. The Court specifically addressed the application of Fifth Amendment rights in their decision and affrirmed that it applied in the states in question!!

Why was SCOTT NOT a citizen, with standing to defend his own right of LIFE and LIBERTY? The Bill of Rights applied for the property owner, but not for the property is what you're saying.

Show me were the Constitution clearly says that a slave was not to be given the same rights as other men. (We're talking about unalienable rights, now, not representation in Congress...)

If it was simply a State's Rights issue, why was the Court ruling on property issues in the first place? They could simply have said -- this is a state's rights issue and refused to rule. That would have had the same effect.
 
Show me were the Constitution clearly says that a slave was not to be given the same rights as other men. (We're talking about unalienable rights, now, not representation in Congress...)
The Constitution doesn't give rights. Occasionally, rights of men are explicitly recognized by it, such as the right to keep and bear arms, but generally the Constitution is a set of limited powers granted to the Federal Government, along with a clear statement that its powers are indeed limited to those actually granted by the document (See the Tenth Amendment). Mr. Scott was not an American Citizen under the law as it was. Only after the post Civil War Amendments could you become an American Citizen by merely being born on American soil. Prior to that, there were lots of people who were born here who were not citizens.

Under state law at the time, slaves were property. To change that, legislators needed to act at the state level or, alternatively, an Amendment to the Constitution needed to be ratified, which it eventually was, though under very questionable circumstances. Ours is a system of laws, or at least it was supposed to be. We are ruled by them, and not by men. If by men, our sovereign king could simply pronounce that thus and so is now the law of the land, because that would be "the right thing to do" in his judgment, but though rule by king has its advantages, its disadvantages far outweigh them.
 
And why did the Court rule on PROPERTY RIGHTS of the slaveowners if, as you claim, it was not a Bill of Rights issue? You can't have it both ways. You keep changing your arguments, rather than thinking them through before you begin.

I didn't claim that the Constitution gave rights, by the way. I asked, in effect, why the Court wasn't PROTECTING the Slave's UNALIENABLE right to LIBERTY (and LIFE)? Why didn't the Constitution apply to the slave? Property rights (ala Bill of Rights) applied to the slave... The Court said the 5th Amendment applied.

Where does the Constitution state that rights are afforded only to citizens. And where does the Constitution set out that slaves are not citizens? They must be at least 3/5 citizens or they wouldn't have been counted when determining representation...

Where does the God, whom you claim is the source of these rights to be protected, show that slave have no rights?

It seems to me we're back where we were once before, with you making assertions that are little more than articles of faith, with little practical, legal, scriptural, or real-world basis for their exposition.
 
I believe the Court is supposed to rule on the arguments. Dred Scott's defense might have prevailed if it had argued he was "a man", "of the people". If real wisdom prevailed, the "all men are created equal" clause might have been seen as applicable.

We see this sort of thing in gun cases, where few are actually appealing to the Second Amendment, and then its meaning or scope never gets challenged. We have since seen arguments about what constitutes "murder" when questioning abortion. One has to find a way to make the Constitution apply, because it isn't very specific, often only debatably clear. Once an argument becomes too far fetched, the Court should deny jurisdiction and defer to Congress and the States to either change underlying law or maintain jurisdiction.
 
And why did the Court rule on PROPERTY RIGHTS of the slaveowners if, as you claim, it was not a Bill of Rights issue? You can't have it both ways. You keep changing your arguments, rather than thinking them through before you begin.
I'm not trying to "have it both ways." It is not improper for the Supreme Court to consider and discuss rights in its decisions, because the purpose for limiting the powers of the Federal Government was to protect our rights from said government. The bottom line is that the Federal Government had no authority to outlaw slavery at the time (This required an amendment to the Constitution), which was an institution at the time of the Constitution's ratification. If you are asserting that the Supreme Court had at that time the authority to outlaw slavery, please show me where that authority can be found. Make that argument. I'm listening.
I didn't claim that the Constitution gave rights, by the way. I asked, in effect, why the Court wasn't PROTECTING the Slave's UNALIENABLE rights?
Although our nation was founded on the principle of unalienable rights, among which is liberty, the law is still supreme. You have to show me a law which gave authority to the Supreme Court to free the slaves. The Supreme Court deals in law, not what should be the law.
Why didn't the Constitution apply to the slave? Property rights (ala Bill of Rights) applied to the slave...
Please provide citations to the Constitution when you make such statements.
And, where does the Constitution state that rights are afforded only to citizens?
It doesn't state that. It is primarily a document granting powers to the Federal Government. When the Constitution referred to rights, it was in the context of limiting the powers of the Federal Government to legislate in such a way as to interfere with those rights. This didn't, however, give the Federal Government the just power to tell the states what to do. You are thinking like a man of the 20th/21st Century.
 
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