JPFO ALERT: Stop What You're Doing (and read this!)
- Thread starter Zedicus
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LoveMyCountry
Member
Link doesn't work and I couldn't find that article on their site. Can you check it out?
LoveMyCountry
LoveMyCountry
Henry Bowman
Senior Member
Well, at least we know that the terrorists can't use guns at schools -- we have the signs to prove it. 
Perhaps we need to add signs excluding bombs, toxins, etc. Yeah, that would help.
Perhaps we need to add signs excluding bombs, toxins, etc. Yeah, that would help.Libertylover
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Just another reason to let parents, teachers, administrators and so on excersize their RKBA on school grounds. That whole "no guns here" thing is like painting a giant target on the place saying "Attack here! Nobody can fight back!" Kind of like why they chose airplanes and took them on using box cutters. They knew damn well that nobody else would be armed, and that they'd likely comply, thinking it'd be the usual "Land, demand money, wait for a while, then we get released" routine.
ojibweindian
Member
I'm surprised a terrorist attack against a school hasn't yet happened.
stevelyn
Member
Beslan was the wake up call. This should have been anticipated long before now.
For those that don't think it could happen, consider:
- Any shmuck with an internet connection can figure out how to make explosive devices (with or without a timer) and poison gas from commonly available household items or items found easily at the hardware store.
- If it is apparently easy enough to sneak thousands of tons of illicit drugs - most of which can be "easily" detected by dogs and electronic sensors - into our country, how difficult would it be to sneak a crate of AKs and a couple thousand rounds of ammunition?
- A person can, with a little effort and a marginal investment, purchase/finish as many AKs as they 'need' with a marginal financial investment.
- The border patrol has stopped quite a few OTMs (other than mexicans); how many have gotten through undetected, considering the large numbers of Mexicans coming through undetected? I imagine the number is quite high when you consider they're likely to be (compared to Mexicans) quite well funded.
Your average Midwestern school (and subsequently, the police) could be devistated by as few as 2 Jihadists with sufficient planning. Think of Columbine. Consider the LA bank robbers who managed to remain largely harassed while walking around shooting at police for quite some while. Granted, procedures have changed substantially since those two events, but we've also done some things to make schools much more vulnerable in the process. And not every police department is up to snuff with the big cities.
No, those two terrorists wouldn't likely succeed in killing everyone. But they would make a substantial mess, and kill quite a few children as well as police. I could go into it further, but let me just finish and say that it only makes a bigger, easier target with an increased timetable to hit it when you've got everyone cowering in the classrooms. Even if police response is under 5 minutes, you've got a problem: those are 5 minutes in which the terrorists have had the opportunity to shoot students and teachers, plant bombs, and set traps for incoming police in a completely passive environment. I imagine a 'lone gunman' could set quite a few traps, or blow open quite a few classroom doors and empty quite a few AK magazines in 5 minutes.
- Any shmuck with an internet connection can figure out how to make explosive devices (with or without a timer) and poison gas from commonly available household items or items found easily at the hardware store.
- If it is apparently easy enough to sneak thousands of tons of illicit drugs - most of which can be "easily" detected by dogs and electronic sensors - into our country, how difficult would it be to sneak a crate of AKs and a couple thousand rounds of ammunition?
- A person can, with a little effort and a marginal investment, purchase/finish as many AKs as they 'need' with a marginal financial investment.
- The border patrol has stopped quite a few OTMs (other than mexicans); how many have gotten through undetected, considering the large numbers of Mexicans coming through undetected? I imagine the number is quite high when you consider they're likely to be (compared to Mexicans) quite well funded.
Your average Midwestern school (and subsequently, the police) could be devistated by as few as 2 Jihadists with sufficient planning. Think of Columbine. Consider the LA bank robbers who managed to remain largely harassed while walking around shooting at police for quite some while. Granted, procedures have changed substantially since those two events, but we've also done some things to make schools much more vulnerable in the process. And not every police department is up to snuff with the big cities.
No, those two terrorists wouldn't likely succeed in killing everyone. But they would make a substantial mess, and kill quite a few children as well as police. I could go into it further, but let me just finish and say that it only makes a bigger, easier target with an increased timetable to hit it when you've got everyone cowering in the classrooms. Even if police response is under 5 minutes, you've got a problem: those are 5 minutes in which the terrorists have had the opportunity to shoot students and teachers, plant bombs, and set traps for incoming police in a completely passive environment. I imagine a 'lone gunman' could set quite a few traps, or blow open quite a few classroom doors and empty quite a few AK magazines in 5 minutes.
MatthewVanitas
Member
I'm not. Not a whole lot of benefit in it for most terrorist groups.
It's not like schools are hard to attack, lone nutjobs wander in from time to time and manage just fine. If there hasn't been an attack, it's because the various terrorist groups don't find it useful to their ends. What would it accomplish? It would tick off the whole country in a horrendous way. All the anti-war people would be booed down, and folks would be demanding the government bomb anybody remotely affiliated with the attack.
A lot of folks seem to overlook that the current wars are not wars of attrition. Taking out 50, 500, or 5000 schoolkids isn't go to save the Palestinians, free the Kashmiris, or bring about the Caliphate. It would, however, turn a lot of people against whatever movement took credit for it. Inculcating pure terror, without any actual direction or solution to it, isn't particularly useful.
Beslan was a pretty odd situation, but there's a lot of speculation about that one too. Supposedly, the surviving attacker in the Beslan Crisis said that their intent had been to provoke Christians in the Caucuses into revenge attacks against Muslims, thereby igniting a civil war that would make all of the Caucuses too hot for the Russians. Presumably, they thought that the Caucus Muslims would eventually win the war and be independent.
There's no parallel situation in the U.S., thus no parallel motive for a U.S. Beslan.
-MV
Erebus
Member
I'm more concerned with a suicide bomber getting on a school bus or in a classroom and demanding that prisoners being held be released or he will blow up the kids.
When we refuse and he blows up the kids there are people that will demand that in the future we do what they want "for the children". And there will be those that know if you give in once you invite more attacks. It will be another divisive issue and work in the terrorists favor. They are doing a wonderful job of dividing us already, it's just a matter of time before the conquer portion begins.
When we refuse and he blows up the kids there are people that will demand that in the future we do what they want "for the children". And there will be those that know if you give in once you invite more attacks. It will be another divisive issue and work in the terrorists favor. They are doing a wonderful job of dividing us already, it's just a matter of time before the conquer portion begins.
coltrane679
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I don't think they are really a whole hell of a lot of "terrorists" in America, to be honest. The cases the Feds have brought to date are a joke--mostly disaffected loser wannabes who have can't keep out of their own way; nothing like the expertly planned operation behind 9/11. Of course disaffected loser wannabes can shoot up schools just fine--American ones do it all the time. But the whole hundreds/thousands of "sleeper cells'' that John Ashcroft used to tout to scarify us into giving up our rights is just pure crap. There are undoubtedly SOME, but I would guess their numbers are so few that they are not going to waste themselves on this stuff.
The sad thing is that should a few loser dorks of Arab descent or Muslim belief buy some cheap Romo AKs at a gun show and follow the example of our own American losers and shoot up a school, then the "terrorist" tie-in will be uberhyped by the media and the pols. "Assault weapons" will be banned, outright for most folks--forget about mag limits. They will just get classified with MGs & destructive devices. Gun shows will be banned. Unregulated private sales will outlawed. Etc., etc.
Scream "terrorism" and you can get most Americans to swallow anything--thank years of scaremongering by this Administration; an irresponsible media; and the general wussification of the American public.
The sad thing is that should a few loser dorks of Arab descent or Muslim belief buy some cheap Romo AKs at a gun show and follow the example of our own American losers and shoot up a school, then the "terrorist" tie-in will be uberhyped by the media and the pols. "Assault weapons" will be banned, outright for most folks--forget about mag limits. They will just get classified with MGs & destructive devices. Gun shows will be banned. Unregulated private sales will outlawed. Etc., etc.
Scream "terrorism" and you can get most Americans to swallow anything--thank years of scaremongering by this Administration; an irresponsible media; and the general wussification of the American public.
Levercaster
Member
Belsan was meant to be the ultimate outrage that sparked a secular war so the terrorists could exploit the secular war for their own gains. The same mentality as using the destruction of the Black Mosque in Iraq to really set the Shiites and Sunnis against each other.
Such conditions do not exist in the United States. The results of an ultimate outrage attack like that would work against the the goals of our enemies. Mosques and muslim owned businesses would likely burn, there would be attacks on muslims and those who looked like muslims on the streets. The American people would demand retaliation from the politicians at a level that would shock the world. An attack like that wouldn't serve their interests at all.
That doesn't mean that it couldn't happen, it just means it's not as likely to happen. There is no way to harden our schools to defend them against that type of attack. The cost would be prohibitive. A Belsan type attack would overwhelm the response capability of jurisdiction nationwide.
In my opinion JPFO is engaging in the same kind of fear mongering that the VPC and the Brady Center do by using this threat to push an agenda. What do they hope to accomplish? If you armed every school staff member with an M4A1, they still wouldn't be able to repel an attack by a platoon sized force like was used at Belsan.
The meaningful measures we would have to take to make our schools safe from a Belsan type attack would cost more in money and freedom and lifestyle changes then we would be willing to pay. That kind of threat has to be fought a different way.
Jeff
Such conditions do not exist in the United States. The results of an ultimate outrage attack like that would work against the the goals of our enemies. Mosques and muslim owned businesses would likely burn, there would be attacks on muslims and those who looked like muslims on the streets. The American people would demand retaliation from the politicians at a level that would shock the world. An attack like that wouldn't serve their interests at all.
That doesn't mean that it couldn't happen, it just means it's not as likely to happen. There is no way to harden our schools to defend them against that type of attack. The cost would be prohibitive. A Belsan type attack would overwhelm the response capability of jurisdiction nationwide.
In my opinion JPFO is engaging in the same kind of fear mongering that the VPC and the Brady Center do by using this threat to push an agenda. What do they hope to accomplish? If you armed every school staff member with an M4A1, they still wouldn't be able to repel an attack by a platoon sized force like was used at Belsan.
The meaningful measures we would have to take to make our schools safe from a Belsan type attack would cost more in money and freedom and lifestyle changes then we would be willing to pay. That kind of threat has to be fought a different way.
Jeff
bogie
Member
Schools are soft targets, but there's LOTS of soft targets.
These guys like symbolism.
I think that it'd be more likely that a large church would be hit during a "holy day" worship service.
Or that they'd go after another "capitalist" icon... What do you think would happen if a dozen jihadists in two-person teams went after shopping malls on a Saturday night? Or started doing mobile drive-by or car bomb attacks on Wal-Marts or grocery stores? Or started shooting random drivers on or near freeways/truck stops? Oh, wait -that last one's been tried already... And it worked.
Shut down commerce, and the economy takes a nosedive.
These guys like symbolism.
I think that it'd be more likely that a large church would be hit during a "holy day" worship service.
Or that they'd go after another "capitalist" icon... What do you think would happen if a dozen jihadists in two-person teams went after shopping malls on a Saturday night? Or started doing mobile drive-by or car bomb attacks on Wal-Marts or grocery stores? Or started shooting random drivers on or near freeways/truck stops? Oh, wait -that last one's been tried already... And it worked.
Shut down commerce, and the economy takes a nosedive.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
If terrorists used firearms, especially AK-style or AR-style firearms to attack schools ...
Yes, there would be widespread anger at the terrorists, possible reprisals against Muslims and mosques within America.
However, the action of our government will absolutely, positively be to enact some type of gun-control. Either an all-out ban on "assault weapons" or some type of registration scheme.
9-11 is proof, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the US government reacts to terrorism by assaulting and limiting civil liberties as well as increasing the police-state.
Why would guns be any different?
Now, on the otherhand, I seriously doubt terrorists would waste their time, money, lives and efforts on a school attack. They think bigger than that. They want something that can be seen on prime time TV. They want visual and horrific.
They also haven't attacked "innocents" (in their view)....in that they could have chosen a Sunday at 1pm - 6pm and flown these planes into the larger, easier to hit football stadiums across the country causing massive casualities into the tens of thousands. That was not beyond their destructive creativity. They are after government targets as well as targets in NYC which they view as the Jewish controlled economic centers/institutions that fuel the US war-machine against the Islamic world.
Yes, there would be widespread anger at the terrorists, possible reprisals against Muslims and mosques within America.
However, the action of our government will absolutely, positively be to enact some type of gun-control. Either an all-out ban on "assault weapons" or some type of registration scheme.
9-11 is proof, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the US government reacts to terrorism by assaulting and limiting civil liberties as well as increasing the police-state.
Why would guns be any different?
Now, on the otherhand, I seriously doubt terrorists would waste their time, money, lives and efforts on a school attack. They think bigger than that. They want something that can be seen on prime time TV. They want visual and horrific.
They also haven't attacked "innocents" (in their view)....in that they could have chosen a Sunday at 1pm - 6pm and flown these planes into the larger, easier to hit football stadiums across the country causing massive casualities into the tens of thousands. That was not beyond their destructive creativity. They are after government targets as well as targets in NYC which they view as the Jewish controlled economic centers/institutions that fuel the US war-machine against the Islamic world.
carebear
Member
That part isn't true.
The boxcutters were legal to bring on the plane, every other passenger could have been armed with a 3" folding knife with which to resist.
The hijackers did indeed do a great job exploiting the conventional wisdom that going along with a hijacking would end up in negotiations and probably few casualties. Which is why their plan worked then, but probably wouldn't work now.
In theory the folks on Flight 93 or any of the others could have been armed with superior weapons and equivilent training to the hijackers, they simply chose (due to mindset) not to invest in either in their day-to-day lives. Of course the laws in their hometowns may have precluded them having proper knives, but airline policies didn't.
They did a pretty good job with mindset when the time came, they just apparently never thought they'd need the tools or training prior.
Prince Yamato
Member
I remember shortly after 9/11, the BBC posted an Al-Qaeda handbook on its website (this was before the BBC started SUPPORTING the terrorists). The book detailed forms of attack. Two that I can remember were sniping CEOs on golf courses and dressing like people who go door to door (ie, Mormons or community activists), ringing doorbells then shooting the families that came to the door.
SniperStraz
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If it helps you sleep at night...
PennsyPlinker
Member
I did not save the article (I wish I had) but just yesterday, there was an article from our local paper on a boy who was raped by another boy while both were attending a local public school. School officials dragged their feet and attempted to cover things up and make them go away.
What does this have to do with the subject at hand?
Plenty.
The lawyer representing the school is asking that the suit against the school be dismissed because Federal law does not require the school to protect its students from harm.
:banghead: So I guess the motto is, we won't protect them, and you can't either. Whether rape, terrorists, or any other thing on a list of things, public school is not a good place for kids to be. Thankfully, we home schooled all ours all the way through.
What does this have to do with the subject at hand?
Plenty.
The lawyer representing the school is asking that the suit against the school be dismissed because Federal law does not require the school to protect its students from harm.
:banghead: So I guess the motto is, we won't protect them, and you can't either. Whether rape, terrorists, or any other thing on a list of things, public school is not a good place for kids to be. Thankfully, we home schooled all ours all the way through.
george29
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MathewVanitas; you sound like a very logical person, one who's logic is derived from yesterday's world or by someone who hasn't had the 'pleasure' of close proximity with those who do such acts, or support them.
There were explicit warnings of a major terrorist act leading up to 9/11, they were not given the priority necessary and I can only imagine the think-tanks made up of accredited professors that refused to think outside the box.
It could be that all these measures taken post 9/11 against threats or presumed threats are the result of learning that this particular enemy does not think like the rest of us, and they don't.
I could write a 100 page thesis but this is the internet and I hate long winded responses, my own especially.
Do you understand the "logic" of the father who massacred Mormon girls? The "logic" of Columbine? The "logic" of smashing planes into buildings that were presumed to contain 50,000 people each? The "logic" of detonating a bomb inches from a kindergarten in OKC? How many countless deeds were "illogically" done, in the name of fun, lust, pride, anger, religion and vengeance, just to name a few.
Where is the logic of plain old everyday murderers? Those people that commit a 4th degree felony and then murder to cover that up? They know they are doing wrong, that they will get caught, everyone gets caught, why do they do such an illogical thing?
This case of Jihaddists taking over a school has not yet happened, but they happened in Belsan, and Maalot, and Serbia, Rwanda, Kashmir, and it is really just a matter of time.
At least the FBI is on top of things to the point that when it happens, they can say, "Ah, yes, scenerio 2675-B, we were expecting that one."
I wish I had your confidence Mathew to write in such a self assured manner why it won't happen here, but then, maybe you have never experienced these tragedies first hand, or dealt with the people who commit them. Be assured that to them, everything they do is of the utmost logic, to them, it is very logical to hit whatever they will be capable of hitting, and the softer and more tragic the target, the better.
That they haven't yet, is even more worrisome to those that really do know them.
There were explicit warnings of a major terrorist act leading up to 9/11, they were not given the priority necessary and I can only imagine the think-tanks made up of accredited professors that refused to think outside the box.
It could be that all these measures taken post 9/11 against threats or presumed threats are the result of learning that this particular enemy does not think like the rest of us, and they don't.
I could write a 100 page thesis but this is the internet and I hate long winded responses, my own especially.
Do you understand the "logic" of the father who massacred Mormon girls? The "logic" of Columbine? The "logic" of smashing planes into buildings that were presumed to contain 50,000 people each? The "logic" of detonating a bomb inches from a kindergarten in OKC? How many countless deeds were "illogically" done, in the name of fun, lust, pride, anger, religion and vengeance, just to name a few.
Where is the logic of plain old everyday murderers? Those people that commit a 4th degree felony and then murder to cover that up? They know they are doing wrong, that they will get caught, everyone gets caught, why do they do such an illogical thing?
This case of Jihaddists taking over a school has not yet happened, but they happened in Belsan, and Maalot, and Serbia, Rwanda, Kashmir, and it is really just a matter of time.
At least the FBI is on top of things to the point that when it happens, they can say, "Ah, yes, scenerio 2675-B, we were expecting that one."
I wish I had your confidence Mathew to write in such a self assured manner why it won't happen here, but then, maybe you have never experienced these tragedies first hand, or dealt with the people who commit them. Be assured that to them, everything they do is of the utmost logic, to them, it is very logical to hit whatever they will be capable of hitting, and the softer and more tragic the target, the better.
That they haven't yet, is even more worrisome to those that really do know them.
MatthewVanitas
Member
PM sent.
I'm certainly not saying that it will never happen here, simply saying that the reasons it happened in Beslan do not exist here at this point.
Currently, just about everyone who had shot up a school has been an out-and-out nutjob. Their motivations were those of madmen.
The 9/11 attacks were done by sane people for concrete reasons.
Sane people currently don't have a motive to target schools, so we'll continue to see nothing but crazies (of various colors and creeds) attacking schools, unless the world situation changes so as to make attacking schools helpful for jihadists or whatever future bogeymen we may encounter.
-MV
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