Judge rules state's gun laws prevail

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The recent historic handgun ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court should have no impact on gun control and licensing provisions in New York state, a local judge has concluded.

Onondaga County Judge William Walsh ruled the June 26 Supreme Court ruling striking down the District of Columbia's strict handgun ban has no effect on the rights of individual states to establish their own firearm laws.

Walsh made that finding in a written decision in which he reinstated a local man's pistol permit with limitations.

The Supreme Court may have recognized the right of individuals to possess lawful firearms in their homes, but it did not overrule the established precedent that the Second Amendment applies only to Congress and not to the states, Walsh wrote.

The Supreme Court's ruling would have an impact in the nation's capital because the District of Columbia is not a state and is under the jurisdiction of Congress, the judge decided. But it would not have an impact on states' rights to establish firearms laws, he concluded.

In the matter before Walsh, Daniel M. Groff, of Bridgeport, had had a pistol permit since 1991 that allowed him the unrestricted right to carry a concealed weapon. The judge noted the permit had been revoked in May based on the filing of DWI and reckless driving charges against Groff in Sullivan, Madison County.

With proof that Groff pleaded guilty to reckless driving and paid a $300 fine, Walsh last week ordered his pistol permit reinstated. But the judge concluded the original decision allowing Groff to carry a concealed weapon had been a mistake.

An "unrestricted carry concealed permit" can be issued based on a showing a person has "a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community or of persons engaged in the same profession," Walsh noted.

Groff's original application indicated he needed the permit for "target shooting, personal protection, hunting" with no elaboration, the judge noted. He concluded target shooting and hunting did not warrant the issuance of a permit allowing Groff to carry a concealed weapon.

The judge further concluded the "unsubstantiated claim of the need for personal protection" was not sufficient to allow Groff to carry a concealed weapon.

Based on that and Groff's prior unblemished record, the judge agreed to reinstate his pistol permit but restricted it to possession on premises or for the purposes of hunting and target shooting.

Groff said recently he was unaware of the judge's decision about his pistol permit. He said he would await a copy of the ruling before deciding if he wanted to challenge the limitations.

Walsh wrote that the ability of New York residents to keep and bear arms is a privilege granted by statute. The state's constitution contains no such guarantee, he added.

"Thus, the issuance of a pistol license remains but a privilege subject to reasonable regulation under New York State law and the licensing officer is conferred with broad discretion in determining whether to issue, revoke, cancel or restrict such a license," Walsh wrote.

Tom King, president of the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association, said Walsh is "probably right" in his interpretation of the Supreme Court ruling and its impact.

"That's the way it is," he said.

King said he had never expected the Supreme Court ruling in the District of Columbia case to end up striking down licensing laws and restrictions in states and communities across the country. It will require other court challenges around the country in the wake of that recent ruling to determine what impact it may ultimately have, he said.

King said there were no known challenges at this point to the laws in New York based on the Supreme Court ruling.

ARTICLE
 
sounds like someone needs to take that to the next level and appeal.
 
but it did not overrule the established precedent that the Second Amendment applies only to Congress and not to the states, Walsh wrote.

What is that supposed to mean? Here we go.... :scrutiny:

An "unrestricted carry concealed permit" can be issued based on a showing a person has "a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community or of persons engaged in the same profession," Walsh noted.

I have a special need for self-protection. I like sucking air just like the next guy. Feel free to give yours up then.

"Thus, the issuance of a pistol license remains but a privilege subject to reasonable regulation under New York State law and the licensing officer is conferred with broad discretion in determining whether to issue, revoke, cancel or restrict such a license," Walsh wrote.

Interesting play on words which (based on this drek) was not the judge's intention (or in his ability) but can be inferred. See, "privilege" and "subject" (though used as a verb rather than as a noun) in the context of this sentence is rarely seen together. If you are considered a "subject" of the realm, you are not afforded privileges, but, duties to obey and submit. The only privilege is to serve your "betters" ie the gubmint' body. Elitist bastages! :cuss:

Tom King, president of the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association, said Walsh is "probably right" in his interpretation of the Supreme Court ruling and its impact.

"That's the way it is," he said.

King said he had never expected the Supreme Court ruling in the District of Columbia case to end up striking down licensing laws and restrictions in states and communities across the country. It will require other court challenges around the country in the wake of that recent ruling to determine what impact it may ultimately have, he said.

King said there were no known challenges at this point to the laws in New York based on the Supreme Court ruling.

I'm not sure of this guy's track record but if this is the type of apathy you want representing you, well then you have big problems. C'mon for pete's sake, he says its going to take court challenges from "around the country" to change things there... the judge just got done saying it's up to NY to handle NY. (aimed at King) Well, do you still want to use your strategy of sticking your head in the sand and waiting for the storm to settle? Time for a shake in bake in NY's Rifle and Pistol Association? :banghead:
 
jaak said:
sounds like someone needs to take that to the next level and appeal.

I wouldn't count on it, unless this guy has a good stash of money. He got to have his permit reinstated, albeit with restrictions. Even if he does want to try to get precedent set on this, he might very well not have the necessary resources to do so.

I'm also thinking that the chances of the NRA or another group picking up his cause is questionable. They generally want spotless folks, choir-boys, to press these cases to a high level. And a drunk driver doesn't fit into that category...
 
Quote:
Tom King, president of the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association, said Walsh is "probably right" in his interpretation of the Supreme Court ruling and its impact.

"That's the way it is," he said.

King said he had never expected the Supreme Court ruling in the District of Columbia case to end up striking down licensing laws and restrictions in states and communities across the country. It will require other court challenges around the country in the wake of that recent ruling to determine what impact it may ultimately have, he said.

King said there were no known challenges at this point to the laws in New York based on the Supreme Court ruling.


Reply to Quote:
I'm not sure of this guy's track record but if this is the type of apathy you want representing you, well then you have big problems. C'mon for pete's sake, he says its going to take court challenges from "around the country" to change things there... the judge just got done saying it's up to NY to handle NY. (aimed at King) Well, do you still want to use your strategy of sticking your head in the sand and waiting for the storm to settle? Time for a shake in bake in NY's Rifle and Pistol Association?

Reply to Reply Quote:
Not apathy. Realism. One of the hallmarks of responsible constitutional construction is narrowness of focus. Courts should never rule more broadly than on the issue before them. The evil of ignoring this rule has been a litany erroneous judgements by the Court especially since Earl Warren. This is what we're trying to correct. The Court was only asked to rule on DC's absolute gun ban rule, not on the sanctity of the Second Amendment. That must wait for another case or more likely, another series of cases. As Pope John Paul once said, "It's a long way, long way to Tipperarry." Patience.
 
Just a thought, but the judge actually ruled on this gents appeal to keep his pistol permit right?
Did the original filing assert his rights were violated under the heller ruling and the 2nd amendment?

I doubt that the appeal was based on Heller since the courts just dont hear appellate cases that fast, so his lawyer didnt have Heller to refer to in the permit appeal anyway.

It seems to me that this is not a ruling with respect to Heller at all, but a case where the judge is editorializing about how he might rule IF HELLER was brought up in a NY case.

Why is this important? It means that officially the NY state high court HAS NOT ACTUALLY RULED ON HELLER and the effect the Heller decision may have on NY Law.

Any NY Lawyers here???
 
A case has to proceed to allow for incorporation under the 14th amendment.
Until then the 2nd amendment is NOT binding on the states.

I am not arguing if incorporation is a sound legal decision, but it IS the path other amendments have followed.
 
This is an expected result and one reason that Heller is only a start.

We need a good Supreme Court case making the Second Amendment applicable to the states. Prior Supreme Court rulings going back to the 19th century had held that the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights don't apply to the states. After the adoption of the 14th Amendment, courts began using the 14th Amendment to make piecemeal those enumerated rights applicable to the states. So until we get a solid court decision applying the Second Amendment to the states through the 14th Amendment, the question is in doubt (at least in those states without a RKBA provision in their constitutions). (For more on this issue, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights))) . While I'm not a big fan of Wikipedia, this is a decent overview of this matter.)

Remember that as helpful as Heller is, it only decided the D. C. case. There are a lot of other issues yet to be decided. The good news is that they will have to be decided from the starting point of the Heller ruling that, "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes,..."

The bad news is that it will take time and money to litigate the open questions; and, as always, cases will need to be chosen carefully to optimize the likelihood of good (for us) outcomes. And the further bad news is that if Obama is elected President and has the opportunity to change the composition of SCOTUS by appointing more liberal Justices, Heller could be reversed and all bets would be off (remember, we won by only 5 to 4).
 
Reply to reply of reply quote that I was quoted on....err ferget it...

Reply to Reply Quote:
Not apathy. Realism. One of the hallmarks of responsible constitutional construction is narrowness of focus. Courts should never rule more broadly than on the issue before them. The evil of ignoring this rule has been a litany erroneous judgements by the Court especially since Earl Warren. This is what we're trying to correct. The Court was only asked to rule on DC's absolute gun ban rule, not on the sanctity of the Second Amendment. That must wait for another case or more likely, another series of cases. As Pope John Paul once said, "It's a long way, long way to Tipperarry." Patience.


But we did get a ruling on the Second Amendment and that it is unequivocally an individual right. I understand that this is a long road but I believe that King in his comments is not making that known. Again, I could be off base but he just does not sound like he has a pulse. That of course can be how the reporter wrote it as well, I know. He does not have to be foaming at the mouth but if I lived there still I would want my state's gun association to show some moxy.

We can evade reality with realism , but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality.
 
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Walsh wrote that the ability of New York residents to keep and bear arms is a privilege granted by statute. The state's constitution contains no such guarantee,

So owning a firearm for self-protection is only a privelege now, granted by the states?

Then why did the South have to free all their slaves if states rights trump the Constitution? What elitist hypocrites!
 
It does not surprise me that the Heller case is being ignored in states like NY.

This is the most important thing the judge has said or ever can say that is a violation of the Second Amendment of the US and violation of Article 2, Section 4 of the New York Civil Rights Law:
the ability of New York residents to keep and bear arms is a privilege granted by statute. The state's constitution contains no such guarantee, he added.
What does Article 2, Section 4 of the New York Civil Rights Law say, you wonder?
A well regulated militia being
necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and bear arms cannot be infringed.
Sound familiar? How does it have the opposite meaning of the federal version? I guess cannot and shall not have opposite meanings.:rolleyes:
 
I feel sorry for you guys that live in NY. What will it take to get you to move out?
Instead of standing idly by while people's rights are being violated, maybe the entire nation should support rights of the people throughout the nation instead of giving up on parts of our Nation. States like NY are where a precedence of anti-2A have been established and indoctrinated. If protection of the Second Amendment(instead of violation) occurs in these states the majority of the people of the states can see that it's not a bad thing nor will it cause harm. They can personally see the opposite is true. Giving up on parts of our Nation has allowed support for such legislation as the recent "assault weapon ban". By giving up on any of our states, we give up on our country. Every American citizen and resident is deserving of their rights being defended and upheld. If we allow them to be subjugated in any part of our country, is it any longer an American right?
 
Then why did the South have to free all their slaves if states rights trump the Constitution? What elitist hypocrites!

Heh. Yeah, the world would be much better off with those slaves back in their chains! They're not nearly as productive free as they just collect welfare, drink 40s of OE and eat fried chicken.

/sarcasm

Honestly I know what you're trying to say, but man, you really picked a crappy example of "states rights" with the "right" to keep slaves.

-T
 
RevolvingCylinder said:
It does not surprise me that the Heller case is being ignored in states like NY.
Actually, the N. Y. court isn't ignoring Heller. It's just that Heller, by itself, doesn't make the Second Amendment applicable to the states.

RevolvingCylinder said:
...maybe the entire nation should support rights of the people throughout the nation instead of giving up on parts of our Nation.
Maybe it should, but it's not happening. In any case, a whole lot of folks in this country don't agree with you, or I, or most of the people on this board about what those rights are. You think they're wrong. I may think they're wrong. So what? They still disagree and think they're right.

RevolvingCylinder said:
...If we allow them to be subjugated in any part of our country,...
There are a lot of folks who are NOT just allowing this. A lot of people are contributing time, money, skill and training to fighting these cases and, we hope, bringing about a good result. There's no quick and easy fix. It will take time, money and hard work -- and a firm grounding in reality.
 
he didnt pick a crappy example, he just picked a touchy one.

This website is read by a lot of gun people, plus a fair amount of fence sitters and antis.

When you start to wrap the whole gun ownership thing up in the confederate flag and start proclaiming that states had the right to own slaves, it makes us all look like idiots. I did find it ironic that he talked about slavery and elitism in the same sentence.

It was a crappy example. Sorry you lost your slaves.
This is where I trot out the obligatory "the south lost, get over it."

-T
 
An "unrestricted carry concealed permit" can be issued based on a showing a person has "a special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community or of persons engaged in the same profession," Walsh noted.

Groff's original application indicated he needed the permit for "target shooting, personal protection, hunting" with no elaboration, the judge noted. He concluded target shooting and hunting did not warrant the issuance of a permit allowing Groff to carry a concealed weapon.

The judge further concluded the "unsubstantiated claim of the need for personal protection" was not sufficient to allow Groff to carry a concealed weapon.

The judges comments look to me like they would make for a pretty good "equal protection" case.
 
If you want to understand what's going on, go here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4674758&postcount=68

Download that, read it, and for God's sake somebody get a copy into King's hands.

THE JUDGE WAS WRONG. Yes, there are old cases (particularly US v. Cruikshank) that say states don't have to honor the 2nd. But they're bad law, they're founded on the most racist principles imaginable and TWICE the Heller court slammed the hell out of Cruikshank, warning lower courts not to rely on it. Can somebody find me the judge's actual ruling?
 
It is pretty clear that the gun battle is shifting now that SCOTUS has ruled it is an individual right. Incorporation will likely be the first battle, with concealed carry following behind. In case you are not aware, there is a movement among Dems to pass a federal law prohibiting concealed carry permits in states. B. Hussein Obama has said he is in favor of this law.
 
Now that will get interesting.

People have had a taste of concealed carry for several years now. They like it.
I suspect a lot will continue on their merry way with or without the government's blessing.

-T
 
Not to worry.

Fiddletown said:
"And the further bad news is that if Obama is elected President and has the opportunity to change the composition of SCOTUS by appointing more liberal Justices, Heller could be reversed and all bets would be off (remember, we won by only 5 to 4)."

Not to worry, Obama only wants "common sense" gun laws.
 
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