Social workers, cops and search warrants

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I have seen Child Protective Services perform poorly repeatedly over my career and I have little use for them.

Delta, I think we basically agree. I did 7 years in Child Protective Services and have 30 years as a social worker. And, when I went on calls I sometimes saw cops (and social workers) perform poorly and had no use for some of the ones (of both professions) that went on calls with me. I just wanted to make the point that generalization is seldom a good idea. There are great cops and great social workers doing a needed job. And, poor ones. I won't put down the ones that do their job well just because some don't do their job so well.

It's like the guy that buys a bad (Kimber) (Glock) (Sig) and therefore concludes that all (Kimbers) (Glocks) (Sigs) suck. They simply don't all suck just because the ones that we have known did. YMMV

RJ
 
Agreed Captain, poor performers come in all vocations.
I have a large streak of cynicism and sarcasm that shows through from time to time.
BTW, you have a tougher job than I do.
I respect what you do and what you do for the kids.
Sorry for any slight towards you.
 
Screw DYFS.........

Had this happen to the wife and my family. Had my lawyer there in 15 minutes also! Lawyer told me over the phone while in transit to let her in because they would be able to get a rubber stamped warrant and enter anyway. Two LEO's were let in also. They looked more embarassed then anything else. We work with them all the time while running with the Emergency Squad as EMT's.
The kicker is that they can do this and harrass you just on an anonimous phone call. Where is due process and being able to face your accuser? Ohh. I see. It's for the children! That doesn't apply!
You should have seen this women's eyes when my lawyer walked in 8:00 at night through my door! She was there at 7:45pm.

Anybody in NJ who feels that DYFS is a great organization and wants to see what it is like to have your family put under a microscope and analyized just let me know. I will gladly call and make up all types of false statements about you and your children.

(They try to get to your children while they are at school so beware! My kids called their Mom when they showed up so she could be present for all the questioning. They didn't like that either.)

:fire:Two things that you DO NOT MESS WITH is my children or my wife. Pick on me all you want. The rest can be burned down and taken away. THESE I WILL FIGHT AND DIE FOR! :fire:
 
No offense taken Delta. You know gun forums tend to have a lot more LEOs hanging around than us bleedingheart, social work/psychology types. And, when we're spoken of it's often in not so kindly a fashion. So, I probably get a little bit defensive sometimes. Even some of us do-gooders believe in the Bill of Rights and the 2nd Amendment.

Child Protection Services is a tough business and it's workers are often unappreciated. The bottom line is that kids can live or kids can die depending upon decisions you make. That responsibility will consume you after a while. It's why I hung it up after 7 years and became a therapist. Child abuse victims still parade through my office trying to heal the scars of their youth, but I'm not on the gut-wrenching front lines anymore. I'm very glad I had the chance to be a CPS worker. And, I'm very glad I'm not one anymore.

Cynicism is grown from years on the streets and looking at the seamier side of life. I got it too.

Regards,
RJ
 
This is what I keep hearing over and over from various sources (teachers, neighbors, etc):

When they reported flagrant abuse of children to CPS, they (CPS) made life miserable for the person doing the reporting while not doing anything to protect the children.

But an anonymous tip on a good family with healthy, happy children is prosecuted (persecuted) to the hilt.

Can someone tell me why this is so ....?
 
Simple, Tallpine, the "good family with healthy, happy children " is usually a homeschooling Christian family. It's was an epidemic for a while, but good court decisions like this one are beginning to stem the tide.


I have never heard of the police getting envolved until a decision is made to remove the children.


It's SOP some places. Usually done when it's the minority group referred to in my first sentence.


Ahh, those anonymous tips! And SCOTUS has agreed that the standard is lower 'for the children!'.

:barf:
 
DCFS is a bloated monster in a lot of ways, but the job they do is necessary. It's just not a big enough job to support what they do in a lot of places. I know whereof I speak.

My sons were removed from their mother's care four years ago after a long pattern of abuse. She was first reported by women who worked in the nail salon where she got manicures because one of the boys (we don't know which one) drank acetone while she was there. The next time she was there they asked her how he was, and it was clear that she hadn't even taken him to a doctor. She was known to abuse them physically in public, and they lived in filth and constantly covered in insect bites. She locked them in a closet together when she had men in the house, and a DCFS worker on a visit once found a rat walking on the same table off which the boys were eating their dinner. They had a hell of a life, and it's still not clear whether they'll completely recover. They're six years old now and have been bounced from home to home for the last four years. They've never lived in one place for longer than two years. In March our adoption will be final and they'll be with us for good. In my opinion, DCFS has screwed up a few times (like letting my mother-in-law take care of the kids and believing her when she promised to adopt them) but they did get them out.

(Just to be totally clear, since it has been pointed out to me by my lovely wife that this post could be misconstrued, these are not "my sons" biologically, I simply consider them my sons now. Their mother was my wife's cousin, and they've been bounced around her family since they were removed.)
 
You know gun forums tend to have a lot more LEOs hanging around than us bleedingheart, social work/psychology types.
I am in the process of applying to School Psychology and Counseling Psychology masters programs from which I hope to transfer to a Ph.D. or Psy.D. program. I'm not a professional yet but do I count as an psychology "type" anyway? :D

And, when we're spoken of it's often in not so kindly a fashion.
As a future psychologist and current subsitute teacher (no jokes please) I've noticed that. Though to be fair, psychology types tend to be disliked equally by the right and the left.
Even some of us do-gooders believe in the Bill of Rights and the 2nd Amendment.
Maybe there should be a club for pediatricians, psychologists, social workers, teachers, professors, etc. who are gunowners. That may shake a few stereotypes, but my guess is that gun ownership among "our types" would be similar to the general population (heck, on "The Ron Smith Show", a right-wing libertarian talk radio show on a Balt area radio station, they quoted some recent poll that showed that as many teachers vote Republican as Democrat).

Child Protection Services is a tough business and it's workers are often unappreciated. The bottom line is that kids can live or kids can die depending upon decisions you make. That responsibility will consume you after a while. It's why I hung it up after 7 years and became a therapist.
Wow, Cap't, you did 7 years of that. I don't think I could survive one. My hat is off to you.

BTW, how do you like working in therapy? Other than abuse survivors what other areas do you do most of your work with? I'm torn between picking a program geared towards therapy and one geared more towards research (so I can become a dreaded professor)- luckily starting w/ a masters I can put that decision off a little while. Either way I want to primarily work with kids w/ learning disabilities, ADHD and depression, plus suicidal teens. While it doesn't fit as well with the previous list I'm also interested in work with child cancer patients and child PTSD victims (read that last one as an excuse to do some research in Israel).

Don Gwinn,

Very sad story (and unfortunately too common now days). I'm glad those kids are now with you where they can have the upbringing they deserve. I hope everything turns out ok.
 
DCFS is a bloated monster in a lot of ways

Don, you are right about the bloat. Unfortunately, the system itself creates the bloat and traps social workers in it along with everyone else.

There are mandatory reporting laws. Professionals like doctors, nurses, teachers, psychotherapists, etc. face the risk of severe penalties (including risk to their licensure and ability to practice and earn their livlihood) if they have reason to believe a child might be being abused and they fail to report it. We know what happens to professionals when their own liability is at risk. People tend to protect their liability and may sometimes over-report because they decide to err on the side of safety (liability) and let DCFS sort it out.

The other bloat I saw when I worked DCFS are what I would call "grudge reports." For example, your neighbor doesn't like the volume you play your stereo so he reports you as an abuser to DCFS just to give you a little payback. Your ex-spouse is mad that s/he didn't get custody or visitation in the form s/he wanted so s/he reports you as neglectful or abusive.

No matter the source of the report or how thin it may look on the surface, DCFS is obligated to investigate them all. You would be amazed at the large number of reports that are determined to be unsubstantiated compared to those that are substantiated and require additional action.

Frivilous complaints occupy the time and energy of DCFS staff who might otherwise be giving services to kids that genuinely need it.

RJ
 
Captain:

In our own case, the frivolous complaints were so fantastically outrageous and obviously untrue that CPS dropped the whole thing in 24 hours. Sort of inoculated us against future complaints, and a whole bunch of people lost credibility.

The "grudge" in this case was that we didn't go to their so called church any more - so we must be awful people.

But the damage to our children lives on - - fear of this group of people and what they might try to pull off in the future.

Fortunately, we are moving out of town in few weeks.
 
originally posted by DeltaElite
BTW, I am in a state that is consistently rated at the bottom for social services in the US. We even came in behind Puerto Rico a few years ago. Ranked 51st, out of 50 states.

Gee, you live in Louisiana too, eh?:D

America's very own banana republic. Took us four tries to convict Gov. Edwards, but he could only afford to purchase three juries!
 
A few comments about a number of posts.
1. As usual, I agree with Coronach.
2. A warrant is not magic. It just alters the burden of proof. Without a warrant, the state must prove that a search was performed pursuant to a recognized exception to the warrant requirement. If the police have gone to the effort of applying for a warrant before a judge, who is a member of the judicial branch of government and not a law enforcement officer, and they get one, the burden shifts to the person contesting the search, to demonstrate that it was issued without probable cause. A person affected by a search can contest a warrant. This issue is still whether there was sufficient information to allow a reasonable judge to conclude that probable cause existed.
3. Where do you folks live? The judges there just sign anything the police put in front of them? In my personal experience, the judges take a critical view of warrant applications, and ask GOOD questions about the affidavit and the actual content of the warrant.
4. There is a lot of case law on anonymous tips, and it isn't that easy to use uncorroborated anonymous tips to search. Quartus, I would be interested in reviewing your research, because I am not aware of it. I think that one of the latest SCOTUS cases, Florida v. J.L., only left the door open as it pertains to weapons of mass destruction. (I know, it could have relevance now, but not in this instance.) The mere fact that someone ratted a juvy with a gun was not sufficient to justify a warrantless pat down that was not corroborated by other evidence.
5. Nobody discloses settlement amounts, not even the car insurance company. That's why you settle. It's the balancing of risk of adverse judgment versus cost of defense/prosecution. You don't go around telling the world how much you paid to settle something. That just tells people to tee up a lawsuit, and you get x dollars. It's like giving people a budget to shoot for. It shouldn't be much in this case, though, because I don't see much damage in the quoted article.
6. Nobody's perfect, whether it's cops, social workers, doctors, teachers, people with CCW permits, etc. I have seen poorly trained officers say some really stupid stuff, all the while believing that they were acting in accordance with law, either because they were inadequately trained or because their department doesn't keep up with the ever evolving law. Given the disparate skills required of a police officer, it should take a couple of years of police academy on top of a 4 year college degree (or reasonable equivalent) to become a PO, but society does not want to pay for that level of education. I have the utmost respect for the officers that can get it right without that level of education. I also understand the ones who don't, as long as they are trying to do it right. I have no respect for those that ignore the law, don't want to learn, or who violate rights because it's easier. The courts are always there to address grievances.
7. It's hard taking kids away from parents. Even if cops and protective services take the kids into protective custody, the courts still have the final say, and it isn't easy. Anyone who has been through divorce proceedings understands how hard it is to take away custody and/or visitation rights from a single parent. Think about the same deal, but trying to sever rights from both parents.
8. Cops are more than familiar with the use of child abuse charges as a litigation tactic. They are very skeptical of allegations of abuse from someone with an interest in the outcome. "Let me get this straight, you lived with a person who did dope for x years, but NOW you want me to take the kids away because you are in divorce proceedings and you want exclusive custody because the other parent does drugs?"
9. In my experience, cops do not remove kids from homes lightly, and it can be a very difficult decision either way. Stuff like a rat on a table are not a big deal, if they work in a place where a lot of people live in poverty areas, and rats in the home are not uncommon.
 
asI have seen personnally from going to counseling over the years of what the system does to counselors I have to say they have a tough job , my hat is off to them it is a tough job . I have gone thru 2 counselors in my youth that had to quit because of the pressures . (NOt from me ....) , and LEO's these guys have it bad too . as For You Mr Gwinn , a prayer sent to make it .. I takes a man to take on the resposabilitys of someones elses children and give them a life ..
 
We live in one seriously screwed up society. As much as I despise the existence of DYS, DSS, etc. I see no substitute. What is a society to do when the family dissolves. As usual the children are the ones who suffer.

That said, I get really concerned with the obvious contempt for the 4th amendment as exemplified by these alphabet agencies. It appears in my state DSS is empowered to do just about anything to anyone for any reason without benefit of check or balance. There appears to be no redress for those wronged. And it all in the name of the children.

I guess like most social flaps solutions tend to swing wildly about the clock cabinet. Maybe in my state we're seeing the dangers of an overarching, overreaching and unaccountable bureaucracy.
 
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