Juggling multiple opinions

[FriedRice]

I'm a noob, and have been training up the last 9 months. I've had several instructors and settled on one academy for further training but need a local place to shoot that has better air quality. To get access to their tactical range, I need to take three of their classes or at least qualify past one and take the other two. I tried to qualify today. This rigid type guy changed everything about my grip except what hand I was using and then timed me. Needless to say, I didn't qualify. He basically told me much of what I was taught about grip at the other place is all wrong and "unsafe." He also raised issues about my holstering choices. I have unique circumstances so typical IWB holsters are out. Apparently, he doesn't do unique circumstances. And the Glock 19 is the answer to every person's gun dilemma. :banghead: Other range people I've met there have been nice and more flexible and I've been assured this guy isn't teaching the classes I'd have to take.

But it brings up bigger questions. I know only what I learn and what I experience. Some things people teach me don't work for me. Some things conflict with what I've been taught before. Has any other one-time noob been through this before? How do you evaluate if someone is helping or hurting and decide what you're going to do? People are often overwhelmed by my safety needs and my limitations so it's rare that I get to chat them all the way through. It's easy to give up quickly and give me a pat answer that would leave me dead later. Even on this, and other forums, I juggle multiple opinions. I've developed only a few hard and fast rules:

1. Don't buy a gun unless I've shot one of that type before.
2. Always pay attention to what others shooters are doing around me.
3. Check out the history of my instructors and range.
4. If it hurts, it's probably a bad idea.
5. Pay high attention when I have a gun in my hand.
6. Follow the basic 4 safety rules.

Anyone else care to throw in opinions on how to deal with this? I do realize how ironic that is.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It has always been my style to adapt my teaching to my student's learning style...but I will say that my teaching style is seldom common.

9 months is a long time to to be training, unless you mean you've taken training and have been practicing for the last 9 months.

I've never heard of a range like you're describing. the range where I teach only requires membership and an orientation session on the tactical range with the rangemaster.

I would be wary of any instructor who believes that one gun is right for everyone and the fact that he doesn't do unique circumstances might say more about his instructional ability.

Without know which grip you're using or which he wanted you to use, limits any possible comment. I do ask that student come to class with an open mind...which academy have you choosen to further your training?

 

[FriedRice]

I have chosen FAS for further training. However, I need access to a tactical range. I've been taking classes here and there and plinking at ranges for 9 months. I didn't seriously embark on my training course until starting with FAS. I can go to this local range and they will leave me alone to do what I want to do as long as it's not unsafe. However, no holster work unless I'm on the tactical range. I have to take 2-3 classes with them to get to use the tactical range. Shooting at stationary paper targets is not going to cut it for me for self defense, although I find it stress relieving. The grip I was using included locking down the right thumb with the left thumb on the left side (I'm a right handed shooter). An instructor at FAS taught me this or I hallucinated him teaching me this. I'm awaiting an email to confirm which. But I shot a whole weekend course this way and did very well. I felt and demonstrated more control over my gun and shooting. Now it's in muscle memory.

I can go back and qualify with a non-rigid person. But I do have to take those 2-3 classes. They teach a thumbs forward and off the gun approach, or so this guy says anyway. Did I mention this range is part of the sheriff's office? And no one likes my carry method as I can have a ND into the belly while seated if the gun decides to shoot itself but they can't offer me alternatives other than, starting dressing inappropriately for my circumstances and get an IWB holster. The flexibility of FAS is what I appreciated so much, among other things.

 

[Tim Burke]

Not all opinions are equally valuable. If FAS is Firearms Academy of Seattle I'd value their opinion. FAS & InSights Training Center are the only 2 places in the Pacific NW that I'd feel comfortable recommending.

 

[atlp99]

I always try to be open when taking training classes, I'm there to learn so I try to absorb everything and decide with a little practice what works best for me.

That being said, I would NEVER attempt to change anything right before a test, or running a qualification course. If you have practiced and are proficient with the technique you are using then continue it for testing.

There is a time for trying new things, that is what training and practice time is for. If you decide a new grip or shooting style works better than what you were using then it takes time to ingrain that into muscle memory so that it is automatic.

It sounds like the grip you were using is an older grip but if it works for you there is nothing wrong or unsafe.
It sounds like you are using what this article describes as the revolver grip.
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/articles/handguns/maximizing-the-combat-grip/

 

[FriedRice]

Yes FAS = Firearms Academy of Seattle. And thanks for the link. I was using the revolver grip. I was originally taught the Leatham-Enos grip somewhere else on a larger gun. I've trained with FAS on a smaller gun and the revolver grip gets me in control of the gun very quickly and consistently. The smaller gun has more recoil and my hands are small. Violent encounters for me are less likely to occur greater than 7 feet away. More than likely, BG will be on me and I'll be elbowing him off to create some distance as I run, draw, turn, shoot. Likely very close. I have two more classes scheduled before Thanksgiving, and then a break. I'll stick with the revolver grip as instructed through the end of that and just plink at this public range. I can try qualifying again after that, and practice the Leatham-Enos grip a bit first. FAS has a big break in their schedule over the winter so I might start with this local range then. I value FAS much more but I need a clean, tactical range to practice at and they can't give me that.

The armory guy (not the guy who tried to qualify me) essentially said do what you need to do in a class, then use what works for you. I can pratice my holster draw at the *cough cough* private range in the meantime. It's hard to know who to trust sometimes because people believe things so emphatically. Overall, my experience with FAS was excellent so I will refer my training issues back to my instructors there. They did stick with me through the whole story and offered reasonable suggestions that were carefully thought out. No one handed me a Glock after I said I'd tried multiple Glocks and my hand doesn't like them.

 

[9mmepiphany]

FAS & InSights Training Center are the only 2 places in the Pacific NW that I'd feel comfortable recommending.

I can't resist...would you not recommend Thunder Ranch or not consider OR part of the Pacific NW?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Did I mention this range is part of the sheriff's office? And no one likes my carry method as I can have a ND into the belly while seated if the gun decides to shoot itself but they can't offer me alternatives other than, starting dressing inappropriately for my circumstances and get an IWB holster. The flexibility of FAS is what I appreciated so much, among other things.

Some LE trainers are not too accommodating...they try to teach the techniques which their experience has shown will bring the most officers home at the end of shift.

It is a bit amusing, because we don't allow IWB holsters in our classes until we get to a more advanced level...it's a safety/uniformity issue on the line

 

[atlp99]

I personally use a modified version of what the Leatham-Enos grip, but I don't rotate my weak hand as far forward. I keep my hand closer to vertical when rotate my weak hand wrist forward I pull shots left.
Everyone is different so try different things and keep what works for you.

 

[9mmepiphany]

this is what is generally taught as the best for good trigger and recoil management:

locking your strong thumb down tends to degrade trigger control and push the gun out of you hand's natural pocket

 

[FriedRice]

That's basically what this guy said, too. However, he then said there's no way I was taught any other method because it's "unsafe." I'll discuss my particular grip with FAS before class. I went from that to Revolver Grip and got better, so maybe it's the way to go for me. The grip help is nice but the question was more around, what do you do with multiple opinions when you're a noob. Lots of people appear to know more than me, but that doesn't mean they're right. Lots of rigidity and dogma in this field I've noticed. And polarized opinions.

 

[9mmepiphany]

What worked for me was giving everything I was exposed to a serious try to see if it worked better than what I was using...if it isn't better after 6 months, I'd switch back.

I seems to work better if you have an understanding of what it takes to shoot accurately or if the instructor can explain it in terms that make sense.

I was once shown a technique for changing mags, where the only explanation was "it keep the barrel pointed downrange"...yeah, at the expense of dexterity and visual verification. I've since seen it explained a better way and might give it another try...the trick is being will to try new things

I've only been using the above grip for maybe 7 years, I used a revolver grip before (20+ years), but switched because it allowed me to shoot faster and more accurately...it just manages recoil in a different way than I had been taught before

 

[Tim Burke]

I can't resist...would you not recommend Thunder Ranch or not consider OR part of the Pacific NW?

I still think of TR as in TX, because that's where it was when I went.
TR is also on my recommended list.
Thanks for bringing that omission to my attention.

 

[9mmepiphany]

just giving you friendly flack...and reminding folks that TR moved a while back. it is about 3 hours south of Bend

 

[FriedRice]

Some LE trainers are not too accommodating...they try to teach the techniques which their experience has shown will bring the most officers home at the end of shift.

It is a bit amusing, because we don't allow IWB holsters in our classes until we get to a more advanced level...it's a safety/uniformity issue on the line

I suspect the IWB option was because I stressed how it really needs to be concealed and my options are more limited than him. His reasons for recommending the Glock were kind of insulting "it's easy to clean and operate." When the Glock 19 clearly didn't fit in my belly band, he just walked off. If this guy would be the one teaches my classes, there's not a chance I'd take them. There's no reason to be disrespectful. If I happened to agree with him on everything, we might have been okay. But I don't do well with that personality type.

So, the trying of things for 6 months sounds reasonable. For those of you with many years experience, who do you count on when you need advice? Who did you trust when you were a noob?

 

[Fred Fuller]

I tend to shy away from the 'my way or the highway' approach, and instructors who advocate that way of thinking...

lpl

 

[Sam1911]

For those of you with many years experience who do you count on when you need advice?

Congratulations, you're right here. You are not likely to find a more experienced group of guides anywhere else as you will here, nor to find advice presented in a more clear, patient, and moderate way. You still will never get one clear answer. Deciphering the most appropriate response to your specific needs takes patience and careful weighing of all the advice you'll be given.

Having said that, you obviously want some folks to guide your learning face-to-face. I think you have that in your trusted training academy. Sounds like they're well respected and are willing to work with you and your needs. Great! Few people are so fortunate.

As a new shooter, there is nothing wrong with adopting the principles taught by one (GOOD) instructor or school until you have the experience and understanding to trancend and move beyond what they can teach you. (Try not to become too rigid and dogmatic, though.)

Don't feel poorly that you can't work with some other person who sees things differently. If he's really holding you up, see if you can't work with him his way, enough to get you what you want. Or, see if you can't work around him (perhaps with another instructor).

Who did you trust when you were a noob?

Trust? Anyone who took the time to teach me what they knew. Doesn't mean that I adopt their method wholeheartedly and am making a committment to it. Just means that I'll give it a solid effort and see if their methods are more effective than the ones I've been using. In the end YOU are the final judge of what your best practices will be. Everyone who takes the time to contribute to your learning path will shape that final outcome to some degree.

Some will have taught things that work for you. Some will have shown you things that DON'T work for you.

It's a process, not a religion.

 

[Flintknapper]

9mmepiphany wrote:

this is what is generally taught as the best for good trigger and recoil management:

I agree.

When I learned it (many moons ago) it was called "high parallel" and it does help in recoil control when done properly, but it is not the best grip for everyone and not even applicable in some cases (very small pocket pistols, some revolvers)....so I would be at odds with any instructor that "required" it.

locking your strong thumb down tends to degrade trigger control and push the gun out of you hand's natural pocket

Ideally... the trigger finger should act independently and not be affected significantly by the grip, but the reality of it is: Locking the strong thumb down...tends to roll the index finger downward a bit...which pre-tensions the muscles.

And yes, it does nothing to keep the pistol in the web of the hand...as you noted.

A good instructor will take the time to explain WHY his/her "suggestion" might benefit the shooter, unfortunately... some instructors are so burned out (or so full of themselves) they don't bother.

Clint Smith of TR is excellent. He WILL make suggestions if he sees something that will help you, but if something is "ingrained" and already working for you....he isn't going to fret about it. I wish they were still in Texas.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Just curious, because I haven't taught or shot in Seattle before, have you been to the Renton Fish & Game Club.

I think they shoot both IDPA and USPSA there and I've shot with several folks who practice there...very nice and friendly. They had an excellent class up there in April with Bruce Gray and it is pretty much an annual thing
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/451105858/m/1060081702

Bruce really improved my shooting and he is based out of Fossil OR...the last time I was up there we had at least a couple of folks come in from Seattle www.GrayGuns.com

 

[9mmepiphany]

We usually don't let students train from a belly band for the same reason we don't allow the IWB holster...by the end of the 2nd day and certainly by the third, students get tired and muzzle awareness gets sloppy. There are dangers in drawing from a bellyband that are not obvious at first

Better to learn on a OWB holster and then apply the lessons you've learned in less crowded conditions

 

[FriedRice]

I have not been to the Renton range yet but it's on my to-do list. I hear they shoot IDPA, which I was encouraged to do. When I get over being intimidated, I might check it out. I do enjoy the stress and relaxation of shooting, and I enjoy competition. The two worlds are just beginning to mix and sometimes, it's a bit much. However, I'll probably be out there and report back in a couple of months. We have to do something to get through the crazy dark winters out here.

I'm training with a Fobus Paddle Holster OWB for class. The training I do with the belly band is at home, unloaded gun, with dry-firing. I've also contacted some other "experts" with this kind of carry to make sure it's the best idea and how to train appropriately. There are some very obvious things that can go wrong with this style holster, and then some I probably haven't thought of yet.

 

[9mmepiphany]

There's nothing wrong with the Fobus for training.

I use a Blackhawk CQC Serpa paddle when I teach and usually have an Uncle Mikes paddle holster in the bag as a loaner

 

[Sam1911]

9mmepiphany raises a good point, and I'd like to support him on this.

Some holsters are very VERY difficult to use safely on a range. For that matter, some holsters are simply inherently more risky to draw from and secure your gun back into.

Belly bands, Smart Carry/Thunderwear, small-of-back, shoulder holsters, ankle holsters, and cross-draw styles all require either a 360-degree range entirely empty of others, or quite a bit of experience and very careful techniques (and usually BOTH) -- or you risk pointing your loaded gun at other shooters and/or parts of your own body.

Basically, if your holster design requires anything besides a straight upward draw and then rotating the muzzle 90 deg. from pointing at the ground to pointing downrange, it greatly increases the risks to yourself and to bystanders. Those risks may be mitigated at home, practicing with an empty gun -- and can be considered less significant than the benefits they offer out in the "real-world" where you will be holstering ONCE a day, and drawing to put it away ONCE a day and otherwise keeping your hands off of the gun.
At a range where you'll be loading, holstering, drawing, and firing over and over again, you begin to elevate the danger to unacceptable levels.

If you are at all new (and even if you aren't) there are many important skills you should be trying to develop and practice on the range regularly. Accuracy drills, moving while shooting, reloading, engaging multiple targets, using cover, and so on and so forth. But you can (and almost certainly SHOULD) practice those skills with a strong-side belt holster which will be safer for range use.

I know we often say that you'll "fight like you train," and that's true to a degree. But very few ranges with any real safety protocols are going to allow you to work with a holster that encourages you to point your weapon up-range, or across the range, or at yourself. That prohibition is reasonable and you can't let it get in the way of your practice time. Get a good belt holster and practice the 95% of the rest of your skill set as you can.

If FAS is willing to train you drawing live from a belly band -- that is wonderful -- but treat that as a special skills-honing practice as you would shooting your expensive carry ammo or as you would running force-on-force scenes or other advanced exercises.

 

[Sam1911]

I'm training with a Fobus Paddle Holster OWB for class. The training I do with the belly band is at home, unloaded gun, with dry-firing. I've also contacted some other "experts" with this kind of carry to make sure it's the best idea and how to train appropriately. There are some very obvious things that can go wrong with this style holster, and then some I probably haven't thought of yet.

Ahhh... that makes sense. Sorry if I was confused. I thought you wanted to practice on their range with the belly band and that would make me a little jumpy, too.

Sounds like you're working things out well. Good luck and keep at it.

I wouldn't hesitate -- AT ALL -- to go shoot IDPA. There will undoubtedly be things that FAS can show you that IDPA doesn't accurately handle from a self-defense standpoint. However, the shooting and gun-handling skills you get to practice there in the minor-league pressure of competition will serve you VERY well.

Nothing will build your confidence like 5,000 or 10,000 rds downrange in an IDPA season. The more you shoot, the more you'll understand HOW to learn.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

In regard to juggling opinions - my handgun techniques are based heavily on what I learned from Jeff Gonzales, a former Navy SEAL who runs Trident Concepts. Whenever I encounter a new technique that appears superior to what I'm currently using, my decision to adopt it is based on how well the new technique integrates with the rest of my "system". If it doesn't integrate well (for example, the mechanics and manipulations are markedly different or counter-intuitive) then, even though it may offer a perceived advantage over a current technique I use, I don't adopt it because I believe I'm more efficient, thus "quicker", by using common processes.

It sounds like you've already chosen to adopt the theories, techniques and rationale espoused by FAS. I suggest you embrace these concepts and processes and train to become very proficient with them so that when you encounter a new, seemingly superior technique, you have the experience that gives you an informed opinion about whether a new technique will work efficiently with the "system" you already have. It is the basis from which you judge the effectiveness of everything else.

I believe its a mistake to try to cobble together a bunch of disjointed, but "best" techniques, that don't compliment one another. Your efficiency, both mental and physical, suffers and so does your ability to quickly perform them intuitively on demand.

Good luck.