I'm looking for opinions on what (skills, experience, style, etc.) make an instructor or school qualified to teach combat handgun. I'm specifically interested in identifying instructors who understand weapon retention and deployment at very close ranges. Is this within the realm/expertise of the typical handgun instructor or is this where you look for some other type of self defense training.
What Makes an Instructor Qualified
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Nushif
Member
I look at reasonability.
My last instructor isn't given to rambling and in terms of "what is best" can be described as level headed and realistic, rather than swearing up and down that caliber x is the best thing and that tactic y is the best tactic for any given situation.
That to me just reeks of opinion rather than qualification. In any field, really.
My last instructor isn't given to rambling and in terms of "what is best" can be described as level headed and realistic, rather than swearing up and down that caliber x is the best thing and that tactic y is the best tactic for any given situation.
That to me just reeks of opinion rather than qualification. In any field, really.
Matthew Temkin
Member
I look for an instructor who has the skills and/or experience that I wish to benefit from.
Some of the best "instructors" that I have had never taught a formal class in their lives.
Some of the best "instructors" that I have had never taught a formal class in their lives.
45crittergitter
Member
CTGunner, if you're in Connecticut, I'd recommend Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute in New Hampshire.
mljdeckard
Member
It's a fair enough question. What the gun world in general accepts as being 'an instructor' actually requires very little. Go to the NRA page, find an instructor who teaches the 'basic instructor' course, usually combined with the 'basic pistol instructor' course, take a weekend, spend a few hundred dollars, and congratulations, you're an instructor. This doesn't mean that you have the real world experience people like to see in an instructor, or that you have the charisma and insight and engaging personality people like to have in an instructor. (Particularly in this field, people are assured when they feel like their instructor is someone who has good odds of winning a fight.)
I am in the process of setting up an LLC, to instruct the state CCW course and also perform minor gun-related services, and I feel like I have accumulated enough of a resume to be respectable. I'm a veteran of two wars, I've been carrying since 1995, I have a degree in criminal justice, and I can demonstrate a detailed understanding of current law. (The other reason I had been wanting to get certified for a long time, for boy scout activities involving firearms, they now require that the instructor is NRA certified.) Despite all of this experience, I don't feel nearly as qualified or competent as the old cowboys and veterans I grew up with.
I am in the process of setting up an LLC, to instruct the state CCW course and also perform minor gun-related services, and I feel like I have accumulated enough of a resume to be respectable. I'm a veteran of two wars, I've been carrying since 1995, I have a degree in criminal justice, and I can demonstrate a detailed understanding of current law. (The other reason I had been wanting to get certified for a long time, for boy scout activities involving firearms, they now require that the instructor is NRA certified.) Despite all of this experience, I don't feel nearly as qualified or competent as the old cowboys and veterans I grew up with.
possum
Member
I want someone with experiencing, can articulate not only the how but the why, and be able to do what they ask the student to do.
Loosedhorse
member
Depends on what you need.
If you're there to work on combat fundamentals (draw, reholster, shooting and moving, malfunction clearence, low-light shooting, retention, aimed fire and point shooting, injured shooter drills, etc), then it doesn't take much. An instructor who can run a safe an efficient range, and one who knows and communicates the basics.
The basics don't require an adherence to any particular "philosophy" of what's best. They apply to everything.
If you need more, then you need (likely) to step up the credentials. Ask your fundamentals teacher for recommendations.
And if your asking about legal stuff (as in Ayoob's MAG40 or MAG20), then I'd look for someone who's in that business.
If you're there to work on combat fundamentals (draw, reholster, shooting and moving, malfunction clearence, low-light shooting, retention, aimed fire and point shooting, injured shooter drills, etc), then it doesn't take much. An instructor who can run a safe an efficient range, and one who knows and communicates the basics.
The basics don't require an adherence to any particular "philosophy" of what's best. They apply to everything.
If you need more, then you need (likely) to step up the credentials. Ask your fundamentals teacher for recommendations.
And if your asking about legal stuff (as in Ayoob's MAG40 or MAG20), then I'd look for someone who's in that business.
That sums up pretty well what I would look for too.
I'd prioritize the ability to teach (second point above) before the others. Having done something/having been in a situation or being able to solve a problem is meaningless unless you can communicate it to other people in a way they can understand it.
The trick is being able to determine that before taking instruction from them
I've found that certifications aren't a great indicator of ability to teach...like a college diploma it is simply a indicator that the student was exposed to a certain skill set and stuck it out through the class.
Military and LE experience isn't much of an indicator either...I don't even mention my LE experience unless someone ask or it is part of the discussion.
I've found that the best indicator it word of mouth by creditable former students...how creditable they are is up to you to determine. Someone who has attended different schools is a better judge than someone has only been to one.
I've been asked, what questions can you ask to determine if someone is qualified to teach shooting. There actually are questions for that, but you need a certain amount of experience to understand the answers to judge the response for the true depth of it's understanding.
An example would be asking, "How can I shoot faster" or "How do I control the gun in recoil better". Simple questions and there really are direct answers, but less than correct answers sound pretty good too...and very reasonable/logical as well.
Military and LE experience isn't much of an indicator either...I don't even mention my LE experience unless someone ask or it is part of the discussion.
I've found that the best indicator it word of mouth by creditable former students...how creditable they are is up to you to determine. Someone who has attended different schools is a better judge than someone has only been to one.
I've been asked, what questions can you ask to determine if someone is qualified to teach shooting. There actually are questions for that, but you need a certain amount of experience to understand the answers to judge the response for the true depth of it's understanding.
An example would be asking, "How can I shoot faster" or "How do I control the gun in recoil better". Simple questions and there really are direct answers, but less than correct answers sound pretty good too...and very reasonable/logical as well.
sniper5
Member
Credentials, experience, reputation are part of it.
The bottom line for me is the same as for a doctor, dentist, lawyer, or any other professional: I trust him. And I'm one of those people that won't hesitate 2 seconds to walk away if I find that trust is misplaced. I don't make a show out of it, but I just excuse myself and leave. My kids are the same way and my oldest has walked out of several job interviews for a variety of reasons.
The bottom line for me is the same as for a doctor, dentist, lawyer, or any other professional: I trust him. And I'm one of those people that won't hesitate 2 seconds to walk away if I find that trust is misplaced. I don't make a show out of it, but I just excuse myself and leave. My kids are the same way and my oldest has walked out of several job interviews for a variety of reasons.
orionengnr
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I agree with credentials/experience/reputation. If he has served as an instructor for LEA or military, especially high-profile ones (FBI/SEALs/etc.) I tend to believe he has something to offer. I was fortunate enough to stumble upon one like this almost 30 years ago (before the popularity and cost went into orbit) and I should have taken more than the one class I did.
That kind of cred is probably going to cost you, though...
If his credentials include training local LEA, there is nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure I'd pay top dollar for it...your call, and caveat emptor. If he is an NRA certified instructor, or is qualified to conduct CHL (or your state's equivalent) then IMHO it's a crap shoot.
There is a certain kind of person who is a good instructor--part temperament, part intellect/personality, part experince. A good shooter is not neceesarily a good instructor; on the other hand a poor shot will never be a credible instructor.
I've met/dealt with a few guys who were very good, and a few who thought they were very good. If you can spend a few minutes talking with the instructor (even on the phone) before you put down your money, you may be able to discern which category he falls into
That kind of cred is probably going to cost you, though...
If his credentials include training local LEA, there is nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure I'd pay top dollar for it...your call, and caveat emptor. If he is an NRA certified instructor, or is qualified to conduct CHL (or your state's equivalent) then IMHO it's a crap shoot.
There is a certain kind of person who is a good instructor--part temperament, part intellect/personality, part experince. A good shooter is not neceesarily a good instructor; on the other hand a poor shot will never be a credible instructor.
I've met/dealt with a few guys who were very good, and a few who thought they were very good. If you can spend a few minutes talking with the instructor (even on the phone) before you put down your money, you may be able to discern which category he falls into
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Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
I've had a few classes and retention was not covered in detail. Sounds to me like you would want a specific skill set. Probably have to get a class tailored to that.
Handgun retention is usually a separate skill set.
A normal/usual/common progression would be:
1. safety
2. fundamentals
3. tactics
4. retention
A normal/usual/common progression would be:
1. safety
2. fundamentals
3. tactics
4. retention
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Something I wrote five years ago still has some utility in answering this question IMHO... the instructor in this case was/is Louis Awerbuck and the firearm in this instance was the shotgun, but extrapolation within the limits of the dataset is in order.
lpl
=================================================
==snip==
For more than twenty years I worked as a Department of the Army civilian, and for thirteen years of that period I worked at the US Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School, where soldiers of the US Army Special Forces receive training. Special Forces soldiers are first and foremost teachers and trainers themselves, and the schoolhouse at USAJFKSWCS turns out some of the Army's finest trainers and teachers. I know an outstanding trainer when I see one, and I found it a great pleasure to watch and experience Louis at work for three days. The man is simply one of the best I have ever seen.
A good instructor first and foremost has to have a full knowledge of his subject, and Louis is a past master of the scattergun. He knows the weapon inside and out, its strengths and weaknesses, advantages and shortcomings, the details of what makes various makes and models work, and how to get the most out of them. He knows his drills both lefthanded and right, and has no trouble demonstrating a particular sequence on either side. He is particularly strong at diagnosing whatever problems a given shooter is having, and finding a quick and workable solution for those problems. He is one of the most perceptive evaluators I have ever seen- almost nothing on his firing line escapes his notice and immediate attention when required. He is a stickler about safety- it is his only real demand, in fact, and he is unfailing in his requirement that students maintain safe firearms handling practices throughout the class.
==snip==
-- http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202292
lpl
=================================================
==snip==
For more than twenty years I worked as a Department of the Army civilian, and for thirteen years of that period I worked at the US Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School, where soldiers of the US Army Special Forces receive training. Special Forces soldiers are first and foremost teachers and trainers themselves, and the schoolhouse at USAJFKSWCS turns out some of the Army's finest trainers and teachers. I know an outstanding trainer when I see one, and I found it a great pleasure to watch and experience Louis at work for three days. The man is simply one of the best I have ever seen.
A good instructor first and foremost has to have a full knowledge of his subject, and Louis is a past master of the scattergun. He knows the weapon inside and out, its strengths and weaknesses, advantages and shortcomings, the details of what makes various makes and models work, and how to get the most out of them. He knows his drills both lefthanded and right, and has no trouble demonstrating a particular sequence on either side. He is particularly strong at diagnosing whatever problems a given shooter is having, and finding a quick and workable solution for those problems. He is one of the most perceptive evaluators I have ever seen- almost nothing on his firing line escapes his notice and immediate attention when required. He is a stickler about safety- it is his only real demand, in fact, and he is unfailing in his requirement that students maintain safe firearms handling practices throughout the class.
==snip==
-- http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202292
Cop Bob
Member
What Makes an Instructor Qualified?
From a few that I have seen of many CCL instructors, not much...
9mmE stated it pretty much heads up,, Retention is a separate skill set. If he/she is not former LE or MIL INSTRUCTORS, I would be somewhat suspect, however there are those I am sure that are qualified.
Our range personnel did not teach retention, (not much use for a blue gun at the range) We had another group of instructors that covered that as part of the Officer Safety and Survival Courses and as part of In-Service Training.. They were actually very good.. With many years on the street, and they traveled the country attending both Private and Government schools related to the subject.. I know that the course previously mentioned in Conn, was on their BTDT list.. As well as one at Gunsite..
From a few that I have seen of many CCL instructors, not much...
9mmE stated it pretty much heads up,, Retention is a separate skill set. If he/she is not former LE or MIL INSTRUCTORS, I would be somewhat suspect, however there are those I am sure that are qualified.
Our range personnel did not teach retention, (not much use for a blue gun at the range) We had another group of instructors that covered that as part of the Officer Safety and Survival Courses and as part of In-Service Training.. They were actually very good.. With many years on the street, and they traveled the country attending both Private and Government schools related to the subject.. I know that the course previously mentioned in Conn, was on their BTDT list.. As well as one at Gunsite..
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ProShooter
Member
As an instructor, I can tell you this. No one knows the best way to do anything. If we did, everyone would be teaching it. I teach a good way, or the way that I think will work for you. Sometimes you have to adapt, get creative, and make **** up on the fly.
There are way too many instructors in my neck of the woods with no practical experience. I'd like to think that someone with X number of years of LE/MIL experience trumps most folks in the civilian world. Too many "strange rangers" running around reading textbooks and telling you how to survive a gun fight. One of the things that I tell students is that I hope to hell that they never have to point a gun at another person (like I have) and make that decision as to whether or not to take a life. Not every situation is best handled by the gun. The best gunfight in the world is one that you do not have to participate in, but are prepared to win. Winning is the only option.
There are way too many instructors in my neck of the woods with no practical experience. I'd like to think that someone with X number of years of LE/MIL experience trumps most folks in the civilian world. Too many "strange rangers" running around reading textbooks and telling you how to survive a gun fight. One of the things that I tell students is that I hope to hell that they never have to point a gun at another person (like I have) and make that decision as to whether or not to take a life. Not every situation is best handled by the gun. The best gunfight in the world is one that you do not have to participate in, but are prepared to win. Winning is the only option.
YammyMonkey
Member
CTGunner- The guy you want is SouthNarc & the class you want is ECQC.
The one thing I look for is the ability to teach me something & make me better. Look at the Olympic level skating & gymnastics coaches. A lot of them couldn't even begin to compete at the local YMCA. But they can make champions. That's what I'm looking for, the ability to make me better.
The one thing I look for is the ability to teach me something & make me better. Look at the Olympic level skating & gymnastics coaches. A lot of them couldn't even begin to compete at the local YMCA. But they can make champions. That's what I'm looking for, the ability to make me better.
I think a good analogy is what I learned from my Taekwondo instructor. He thought that when he moved to the US his championships and credentials would earn him some respect but when he got here it seems like everyone with a school is some type of "champion" and since there are precious few governing bodies of such things, every instructor seems to have all the credentials in the world. His credentials suddenly didn't seem like they were worth much here. I've seen great instructors with very few credentials and terrible ones who claimed to be the best in the world. The best you can do is research reputation and talk to students who have some knowledge and do the best you can to pick a good one.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Jon, IMHO that's a good point. I also like to look for folks who have some depth in their training and some variably in their experience.
AirForceShooter
Member
The ability to TEACH and Communicate.
They NEVER use the word "I".
An instructor that can adapt to the strengths of a student.
An instructor that never talks down to you.
AFS
They NEVER use the word "I".
An instructor that can adapt to the strengths of a student.
An instructor that never talks down to you.
AFS
autospike
Member
1911 guy
Member
Look for an instructor that teaches a proven method, is able to explain why it works and can give examples of people who have used his training to effect in the real world.
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