Jungle Carbine For A SHTF weapon?
- Thread starter MinScout
- Start date
- Status
RON in PA
Member
The gun kicks like a mule due to light weight coupled with a butt that was conceived by some officer who hated the"other ranks" as the British say. The full sized #4 rifle is much better.
You might consider the Ishapore conversions that were made to look like the original jungle carbine. I've got two of them and they're a real hoot to shoot!
What's not to like? They're .308, hold 12 rounds, can be loaded from stripper clips and with a nifty Pachmayr slip-on recoil pad, it's almost a pussycat to shoot. Accuracy is decent - at least minute-of-shtf. They can be had for a reasonable price ($150 - $250) and eat (relatively) cheap surplus ammo all day long. Cost WAY less to feed than the .303 versions.
Try it - you'll like it...
What's not to like? They're .308, hold 12 rounds, can be loaded from stripper clips and with a nifty Pachmayr slip-on recoil pad, it's almost a pussycat to shoot. Accuracy is decent - at least minute-of-shtf. They can be had for a reasonable price ($150 - $250) and eat (relatively) cheap surplus ammo all day long. Cost WAY less to feed than the .303 versions.
Try it - you'll like it...
the jungle carbine is wonderful as far as a WWII carry piece. but really there are lot better options. first of all. 303 is getting scarce in the gun shops. Second, it uses heavy ammuntion and more likely as not you will never run accross another person carrying one or owning one to get ammo from. Third. the gun as noted is loud, kicks hard, and has a big muzzle flash. In a modern world. 762 39 is much more likely to be present. so is 308 and 223. I would limit my choice to that list
The SKS is a modern day version of that jungle carbine. Light, easy to carry, carries ten rounds in a clip, easy to load and accurate to about 250 yards, about the same max reasonable accuracy of the jungle carbine. sure a 303 brit has a bit more umph than a 7.62 x 39 but out of the short barrel a lot (not all but the ballistics are a lot closer than people realize.) of the difference is lost.
I just think the advantages of the SKS are more likely to win out in an unbiases comparason.
The SKS is a modern day version of that jungle carbine. Light, easy to carry, carries ten rounds in a clip, easy to load and accurate to about 250 yards, about the same max reasonable accuracy of the jungle carbine. sure a 303 brit has a bit more umph than a 7.62 x 39 but out of the short barrel a lot (not all but the ballistics are a lot closer than people realize.) of the difference is lost.
I just think the advantages of the SKS are more likely to win out in an unbiases comparason.
dasmi
Member
Right now my SHTF gun is my Mosin-Nagant m44, until I can find a decent SKS. I'm pretty quick with the bolt, I just need to find some good stripper clips.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Feh on the naysayers - it's a mighty fine SHTF rifle.
It's light, has excellent sights, shoots a full size round (evidently some see this as a negative, some as a positive), carries ten rounds, can arguably be worked faster than any other bolt action made, and has an indestructible quality that few rifles can match.
No other rifle, for example, would have likely dealt with the water and mud of the Gulf Coast disaster as well as the Enfield - you'll not likely EVER clog the Enfield action with mud. The rear locking lugs make the action inherently easy to clean of debris and muck - can't say that for any of the forward locking lug crowd. WildAlaska/Ken did a thread on this a couple of years ago, challenging ANYONE to provide an example of a more abuse-tolerant rifle. I can't recall seeing any real contenders to the crown.
The 303 British round is still factory loaded by Remington, Federal, Winchester, PMC, and many others. The South African-made PMP ammo is first class stuff, and at $8/box of twenty 180gr. JSP it's about as cheap as you can get outside of MilSurpLand. It's not like a SHTF scenario would require more 303 Brirish ammo than a single person could reasonably purchase and have handy....
Now, in a true TEOTWAWKI scenario the 303 round loses a bit of luster (due to the fact that it'll not be *as* available as 308 or 223 or 30-06) and a chopped Ishapore 1A/2A Enfield in 308 might get the nod. Having multiple examples of both, I can tell you that the Ishy's are not in the same class as the No4/No5 with regard to sights and workmanship - I would default to the No4/No5 in a SHTF situation and grab the Ishy only if I didn't see any prospect for life returning to normal any time soon.
It's light, has excellent sights, shoots a full size round (evidently some see this as a negative, some as a positive), carries ten rounds, can arguably be worked faster than any other bolt action made, and has an indestructible quality that few rifles can match.
No other rifle, for example, would have likely dealt with the water and mud of the Gulf Coast disaster as well as the Enfield - you'll not likely EVER clog the Enfield action with mud. The rear locking lugs make the action inherently easy to clean of debris and muck - can't say that for any of the forward locking lug crowd. WildAlaska/Ken did a thread on this a couple of years ago, challenging ANYONE to provide an example of a more abuse-tolerant rifle. I can't recall seeing any real contenders to the crown.
The 303 British round is still factory loaded by Remington, Federal, Winchester, PMC, and many others. The South African-made PMP ammo is first class stuff, and at $8/box of twenty 180gr. JSP it's about as cheap as you can get outside of MilSurpLand. It's not like a SHTF scenario would require more 303 Brirish ammo than a single person could reasonably purchase and have handy....
Now, in a true TEOTWAWKI scenario the 303 round loses a bit of luster (due to the fact that it'll not be *as* available as 308 or 223 or 30-06) and a chopped Ishapore 1A/2A Enfield in 308 might get the nod. Having multiple examples of both, I can tell you that the Ishy's are not in the same class as the No4/No5 with regard to sights and workmanship - I would default to the No4/No5 in a SHTF situation and grab the Ishy only if I didn't see any prospect for life returning to normal any time soon.
armoredman
Member
dasmi, I am with you - my Mosin M38 is what I have until I get another SKS for myself. The wife has the Yugo, as she cannot handle the Mosins.
Stripper for the Mosin are the only thing a PITA to find - get the copper ones, or steel with the Izzy mark on them, as the repros do NOT work.
Stripper for the Mosin are the only thing a PITA to find - get the copper ones, or steel with the Izzy mark on them, as the repros do NOT work.
KaceCoyote
Member
How about a Lee enfield that takes AK magazines?
How about a Lee enfield that takes M14 magazines?
Oh wait, you can buy those for about 4-500 bucks right here! I -neeed- about five of these
How about a Lee enfield that takes M14 magazines?
Oh wait, you can buy those for about 4-500 bucks right here! I -neeed- about five of these
Skofnung
Member
If it's a "real" JC, and has the cuts in the reciever to lighten it, it may well have the dreaded "wandering zero" problem. If it is a cut down No4, it should be OK.
Without a doubt, the hardest kicking rifle I have ever fired was a real JC. I've shot .300Superboomers that had less felt recoil than that little bastard. I never thought a lowly .303 could kick that hard.
The point about .303 getting hard to find is a valid one. I have 4 rifles in this caliber, and they don't get as much "love" as they deserve due to scarce milsurp (read:cheap)ammo.
All that said, any Enfield in good shape would be a good choice, provided a steady or large supply of ammo. A real JC would be my third to last choice out of all guns chambered in .303, followed by the Ross rifle and a Lee Medford.
Without a doubt, the hardest kicking rifle I have ever fired was a real JC. I've shot .300Superboomers that had less felt recoil than that little bastard. I never thought a lowly .303 could kick that hard.
The point about .303 getting hard to find is a valid one. I have 4 rifles in this caliber, and they don't get as much "love" as they deserve due to scarce milsurp (read:cheap)ammo.
All that said, any Enfield in good shape would be a good choice, provided a steady or large supply of ammo. A real JC would be my third to last choice out of all guns chambered in .303, followed by the Ross rifle and a Lee Medford.
DMK
Member
I suspect the whole "wandering zero" thing is due more to shooter flinch than any design problem with the rifle.
Cpl Punishment
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2005
- Messages
- 118
Depends on what you want to do during the apocalypse.
Do you want to be a warrior king, selling his services to the highest bidder and face the forces of evil in choreographed firefights? Then you're screwed with the JC (or really any bolt action).
If you want you and yours to survive, to use the rifle to gain food and occasionally fight off those who would rather steal than cooperate? Then you're good to go.
The ammo problem really isn't a problem. You can buy good ammo now (most of the remaining milsurp isn't very good and I'd avoid it), or you can load it (a $14 Lee Loader is enough) yourself. Come the end of the world, ammo supply isn't going to be as much of a problem as people make it out. If you have to "harvest" ammo, then the weapon will be lying next to it. Availability in guns shops makes no difference, as they won't be open at the end of the world.
Do you want to be a warrior king, selling his services to the highest bidder and face the forces of evil in choreographed firefights? Then you're screwed with the JC (or really any bolt action).
If you want you and yours to survive, to use the rifle to gain food and occasionally fight off those who would rather steal than cooperate? Then you're good to go.
The ammo problem really isn't a problem. You can buy good ammo now (most of the remaining milsurp isn't very good and I'd avoid it), or you can load it (a $14 Lee Loader is enough) yourself. Come the end of the world, ammo supply isn't going to be as much of a problem as people make it out. If you have to "harvest" ammo, then the weapon will be lying next to it. Availability in guns shops makes no difference, as they won't be open at the end of the world.
Dave Markowitz
Member
A No.5 would make a fine SHTF rifle, but if you plan on practicing much with it, replace the buttstock either with a No.4 stock or replace all the furniture with modern plastic stuff. You may have noticed that the No.5's recoil pad is smaller in outer dimensions than the rest of the butt. It acts as a recoil enhancer.
The person responsible for designing the recoil pad on the No.5 needs to be dug up and keelhauled.
The person responsible for designing the recoil pad on the No.5 needs to be dug up and keelhauled.
The No.5 would make an excellent SHTF rifle.
Don't screw it up by drilling/cutting/changing out parts. The carbine, just as it sits has been through real SHTF senarios way beyond anything you are likely to encounter and came out smelling like a rose. Forget the armchair commando crap: the No. 5 has been there, done that, and doesn't need some shade tree gunsmith making it "tactical".
I also don't buy into the wandering zero thing or the recoil thing. I actually own a jungle carbine. Last month I shot it in a match that had a trophy for the best score with a jungle carbine. Everyone that shot one, shot a score that was right there with anyone else at the match regardless of what they were shooting. One of my best shooting buddies is a British citizens and primarily shoots British weapons: FAL, Enfields, Sten SMG, etc. I have seen him compete in matches out to 800 yards with a jungle carbine and he shot a respectable score. I have spotted for him in a silhouette match where he shot a jungle carbine and he took second place in the match.
They are fine rifles and would suit your needs very well.
Don't screw it up by drilling/cutting/changing out parts. The carbine, just as it sits has been through real SHTF senarios way beyond anything you are likely to encounter and came out smelling like a rose. Forget the armchair commando crap: the No. 5 has been there, done that, and doesn't need some shade tree gunsmith making it "tactical".
I also don't buy into the wandering zero thing or the recoil thing. I actually own a jungle carbine. Last month I shot it in a match that had a trophy for the best score with a jungle carbine. Everyone that shot one, shot a score that was right there with anyone else at the match regardless of what they were shooting. One of my best shooting buddies is a British citizens and primarily shoots British weapons: FAL, Enfields, Sten SMG, etc. I have seen him compete in matches out to 800 yards with a jungle carbine and he shot a respectable score. I have spotted for him in a silhouette match where he shot a jungle carbine and he took second place in the match.
They are fine rifles and would suit your needs very well.
rbernie
Contributing Member
I've got three SKSs and four Enfields - love 'em all.
True of both; a Yugo SKS will weigh in about the same as a stock No4Mk1 and my Norinco is about the same weight as my chopped No4Mk1.
This is where ya lost me. I'm sorry - I shoot and handload for both, and it is unlikely that you can convince me that you can shoot a SKS with factory iron sights as accurately at 250 yards as you could shoot a No4/No5 Enfield.
A 125gr Sierra ProHunter sitting on a max load of AA1680 or H4198 will step out of my Norinco SKS barrel at between 2375fps-2450fps. That same bullet, loaded into a 303 British case with a reasonable load of H322 or H4895 under it, will move out of a 20" Enfield barrel at between 2900fps-2950fps. The 7.62x39 round on its best day will have about 875 ft/lbs of energy left at 250 yards, whereas the 303R round loaded with the same bullet will have over 2200 ft/lbs of energy, will have gotten there a tenth of a second faster, and (presuming a 100 yard zero for both) will hit five inches closer to POA in windage and drifted over two inches less in a 10mph crosswind than that same bullet in 7.62x39.
The 303R is a full power cartridge, and the 7.62x39 is by definition an intermediate round. Both have their place - I hunt with both- but they are NOT peers. To suggest otherwise is, well, just not true.
Dave Markowitz
Member
I agree with on WRT to the wandering zero, but remember, recoil is subjective. IMO, and that of many others with real experience with No.5s (including RON in PA, who posted above), the recoil is vicious. I have one, and I find the recoil a lot more objectionable than even a cut-down No.1 Mk.III* SMLE with the original brass buttplate.
YMMV.
In my dreams, someone will be able to mention the No5mkI without bringing up the mostly ficticious "wandering zero" story, or crying because of the brutal recoil.
The wandering zero was a problem that the army higher ups exaggerated at the manufacturing level to hasten the MOD's dropping of the No5 action, and to speed up the adoption of a new autoloader (to become the L1A1). There were No5's with wandering zero, but it wasn't a systemic problem. The No1 was much worse about holding zero (due to bedding and fit issues), yet you NEVER hear anyone say it about them. It's always the No5.
The recoil is more stout than a No4, but no duh. It's not like ANY Enfield is a mule. Shoot a shotty with 3" 00 buckshot and tell me that it's not a kicker. What about an M38 or a Berthier Carbine? Or an 03A3 with an S stock. Those guns are pounders.
Anyway....the No5 is a wonderful little gun. I might not choose it for SHTF but with one I wouldn't feel like I had a lemon on my hands.
The wandering zero was a problem that the army higher ups exaggerated at the manufacturing level to hasten the MOD's dropping of the No5 action, and to speed up the adoption of a new autoloader (to become the L1A1). There were No5's with wandering zero, but it wasn't a systemic problem. The No1 was much worse about holding zero (due to bedding and fit issues), yet you NEVER hear anyone say it about them. It's always the No5.
The recoil is more stout than a No4, but no duh. It's not like ANY Enfield is a mule. Shoot a shotty with 3" 00 buckshot and tell me that it's not a kicker. What about an M38 or a Berthier Carbine? Or an 03A3 with an S stock. Those guns are pounders.
Anyway....the No5 is a wonderful little gun. I might not choose it for SHTF but with one I wouldn't feel like I had a lemon on my hands.
I thought the junglecarbine kicked pretty hard as a kid... but that was compared to my 30-30.
Practice makes a lot of difference.
Practice makes a lot of difference.
Cpl Punishment
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2005
- Messages
- 118
I thionk people are too spoiled by shooting those "lightweight, handy" aluminum rifles that weight 9+ pounds (due to all the crap hanging off them) and shooting fast .22s. Apparently, anything from which you can feel any recoil is a mule kicker. Not to mention the .303 is more along the lines of the .30-40 Krag in recoil, not even as powerful as a .308. Yet grown men cry over it.
Before you ask, yes, I've fired the JC, as well as the Mosin carbines (actually even own a few), and I'm convinced the very prominent muzzle blast is what convinces people that they are hard kickers, not the actual recoil.
varoadking
Member
I've one of the Gibb's .308 JC's and the sights are terrible, the rifle does indeed kick like a mule, and if someone were interested, I'd gladly sell the damned thing.
I think I can name one (two, but one is really an adaptation of the other): the Pattern 14 and the US Model of 1917. Use the WWII US Ordnance improved ejector spring, and I am fully convinced that the 1917 will take a pounding that would leave a #5 a pile of useless parts.
John
My No5Mk1 is definitely a go-to gun.
I have 123gr, 150gr, and 180gr ammo ready for it, it carries and handles well, has excellent sights, and the recoil is no worse than a Spanish FR-8 or M44 Mosin-Nagant carbine.
I agree, the "wandering zero" bit sounds more like urban legend than a real problem with the gun. My rifle had a loose king screw, so the beding was poor at best. A little Loc-Tite fixed that. I have no problems keeping groups centered, nor does the point of impact drift between firing sessions. I just wish I had bought more than one of the little guys when they were being imported for $250 a couple years ago.
I have 123gr, 150gr, and 180gr ammo ready for it, it carries and handles well, has excellent sights, and the recoil is no worse than a Spanish FR-8 or M44 Mosin-Nagant carbine.
I agree, the "wandering zero" bit sounds more like urban legend than a real problem with the gun. My rifle had a loose king screw, so the beding was poor at best. A little Loc-Tite fixed that. I have no problems keeping groups centered, nor does the point of impact drift between firing sessions. I just wish I had bought more than one of the little guys when they were being imported for $250 a couple years ago.
rbernie
Contributing Member
IMO - yes and no. The P14/1917 Enfield is probably one of the strongest actions ever made. It's a HOSS. It's my third-favorite action of all time (behind the Lee Enfield and the small-ring Mauser), and it'd be second on the list if it weren't so blamed heavy.
But it suffers, if that's the word, from the same design issue as does all other Mauser copies - the lack of easy access to the locking lug recesses. It doesn't take much mud or ice to tie up these actions once it gets into the locking lug recesses, since there's no ready means by which to remove it. Compare that to the Enfield action with its rear locking lugs - there is NO WAY that you can't, with nothing more sophisticated than your bare hands, clean that action of ice and mud enough such that it'll lock and fire. And *that* makes it a better SHTF rifle, in my eyes.
If the litmus test for 'abuse' is pure action strength - the P14/1917 wins. If the test is the ability to keep firing under virtually any conditions - the Lee Enfield derivitives win.
Burt Blade
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2004
- Messages
- 477
Does it go boom?
(any bullet can kill if well placed.)
Every time you pull the trigger?
(unreliable guns are more dangerous to the shooter.)
More then once without reloading?
(Goblins often have a buddy, and surprised people often miss.)
With a deliberate shot, can you hit a man at 100 yards with it?
(If the goblin or potenital meal is further than that, move.)
Can you accumulate and carry 200 rounds for it?
(200 rounds will get you through quite a bit.)
Then it is a very serviceable SHTF gun.
(any bullet can kill if well placed.)
Every time you pull the trigger?
(unreliable guns are more dangerous to the shooter.)
More then once without reloading?
(Goblins often have a buddy, and surprised people often miss.)
With a deliberate shot, can you hit a man at 100 yards with it?
(If the goblin or potenital meal is further than that, move.)
Can you accumulate and carry 200 rounds for it?
(200 rounds will get you through quite a bit.)
Then it is a very serviceable SHTF gun.
- Status
