Jungle Carbine For A SHTF weapon?

[SMLE]

The LE has seen more "S" hit the "F" than any other bolt rifle in the world...

While the SMLE took 22 years to refine, it went on to serve 60 years in frontline service. The Mauser took 37 years to 'refine' and was being traded off to 2nd line units and cut up for scrap after barely 47 years active service. LEs are filling coffins and hospital beds around the world even to this day.

I have put 200 rounds in one session through a JC and had no problems with the recoil, nor did I notice any "wandering zero". The JC is accurate enough to bust clay birds on a fence rail at 200 yards with boring regularity. Commercial 303 is readily available, as is new brass and a wide variety of .312" bullets.

Someone already posted a link to the new manufacture #5 in 7.62x39 or 308.

Switching out the original wood for a synthetic stock won't hurt if you don't do any chopping or drilling on the metal. If you want a "Bubba'd" JC, shop around for one that's already been desecrated and leave your original one alone.

 

[Colt46]

I guess

An actual Jungle Carbine would be quite a collectors item. Recoil is stiff and there is that wandering zero factor. Some have it some don't. Availiability of .303 during times of crisis might be a factor. I'd say go .308.
The enfield action is fast.

 

[Gewehr98]

Not that bad, really.

An actual Jungle Carbine would be quite a collectors item.

The prices on authentic No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines came way down just a few years ago when oodles of them were found and imported from Malaysian law enforcement inventories. That's where the BSA Shirley specimen I posted above came from, very original and also sans "wandering zero".

 

[Mauserguy]

"How do you think it rates as possible shtf tool?"

The Jungle Carbine was built for use in the jungles of the south pacific during WWII. Global warfare is the biggest SHTF scenario you can possibly come up with. The Jungle Carbine is a proven SHTF weapon.
Mauserguy

 

[Malamute]

A lower cost alternative is a No4 cut down to similar size. I have one with a 19" barrel, rear band moved back 2", and handguards cut down similar to the JC. I used a P-14 front sight assy. It is just a tiny bit tall, making it simple to file to sight in. Haven't put it on paper yet, but it looks like as is it hits about right on POA at 100 yards, so needs to be brought up for the battle setting and long range markings to apply.


While lighter and shorter than the regulart size Lee Enfields, the balance point is changed, making the shorter guns more awkward to carry in hand. For in and out of a vehicle the short ones are nice, but if I was going to carry one very much, I'd prefer the No1 MKIII.

 

[DougW]

I shoot my #5mk1 Fazakerly in Vintage Matches. Recoil is no worse than any of my #4's, since I load a reduced load for the 7.7X56R (.303). It would be one of the weapons that I would grab as a SHTF rifle. High capicity, accurate, able to engage targets out to 800 yards, light and tough. Meets all my needs. But, it is not my first choice for a SHTF weapon. It will go with me though.

 

[telomerase]

Just don't run into more than one zombie at a time... Mr. Garand gave this matter some thought.

 

[wayne in boca]

I've had a No. 5 for 35 years,bought it for $50.00 as a deer rifle when I was 18 years old,and I have never noticed that it had either a "wandering zero" or a tremendous recoil.Gee,it's a rifle,not a BB gun,it's supposed to kick.Always liked it,never modified it in any way (not because I was a purist collector at that point,but because it doesn't need it,it's perfect already as a woods rifle)and I have probably shot 25 deer and hogs with it.Just found out it was a collectors item about five years ago,now I just look at it and shine it.Has no import marks and an original bayonet.I tell you one thing.You wouldn't want to try going into the bush after me if I had it with me.Knocks down whatever is in front of it.

 

[BruceB]

I have great affection for the #5 Rifle, as it was what I had in my hands in the closest shooting scrape of my 62 years.

I was trained in the use of the #4 Rifle (much the same as the #5 in most respects except length) in the Canadian Army, and if I do say so myself, I can REALLY run a Lee Enfield in a hurry...and that was a good thing, as it turned out.

I was faced with an oncoming black bear on the steps of an exploration shack many miles from any civilization in the Northwest Territories of Canada. My first shot at this bear was fired when he was about two feet off the muzzle, and almost stopped him. The second shot DID stop him, but he was still on his feet. The third shot turned him sideways, still standing, and the fourth put him down, a measured four feet from my toes. Elapsed time...difficult to say, but my partner said it was like a machinegun. Maybe a couple of seconds. I will GUARANTEE there were more than two empty cases in mid-air at one time. Then, it seemed that my knees wouldn't hold me up any longer and I had to sit down....

Any one of those rounds would have been fatal, but I was in no mood to wait around for results!

Recoil in the JC is easily addressed with a simple slip-on recoil pad. Muzzle blast is very loud, and will have to be lived with if there's no time to get your muffs. Some practice with the .303 5-round chargers will allow rapid reloads, and rattle-free carry of ammo. (Make SURE you know how to load the chargers correctly, because there is a definite "right" and "wrong" way to do it.)

The ten-round capacity is also a very useful feature in a bad-times rifle. Just ensure that case rims are always loaded ahead of rims in the magazine, and the rifle is very reliable in any climate on the globe..

 

[DougW]

In shooting my #5 or one of the #4's in a match, I am consistantly finishing my 10 rounds (5 loaded to start, reloading with 5) with an average time of 48 seconds, in an 80 second time limit. (The bad part about this is that I am shooting against mostly 1903 Springfields, and I am handicapped with only being able to load 5 rounds at a time. I am sorry that their rifle in standard configuration only holds 5 rounds, when mine holds 10!) The bolt can be worked very fast without having to raise your head, and, the fact that it cocks on closing. I love em!

 

[MinScout]

I'm sure pleased with all the great feedback on this thread. Actually, I did buy an AR15 shtf gun right after the ban ended last year. Thing is, I can't like the darned thing. Can't get my mind around all that polymer and plastic and it just does'nt feel right in my hands. I shot a magazine full out of it earlier this summer and have'nt touched it since. I've been thinking of selling it and buying something I can enjoy shooting and handling like the JC.

 

[Malamute]

I sold my AR's about 15 years ago and don't miss them in the least.


The Sht LE's are much more rifle in my estimation. I consider a rifle to be a tool, and prefer one more suited to the game in my area, as well as handling SD chores.

 

[bad LT]

Looks like BruceB has already faced a SHTF situation with a Jungle Carbine
A 30 caliber round in the right place has proven itself many, many times in the past.

 

[Gewehr98]

Looks like somebody hasn't heard of the "Mad Minute".

Just don't run into more than one zombie at a time... Mr. Garand gave this matter some thought.

 

[DevLcL]

No way dude. You can't reload quick enough.

Get an M1 Carbine.

If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.

Whatever you choose shoot the heck out of it as much as possible. Get lots of ammo and put it away. When you go to the range purchase ammo for the trip, don't dip into your cache. Don't fool with fancy and/or expensive accessories.

Just my opinion.

-Dev

 

[Malamute]

"No way dude. You can't reload quick enough.

Get an M1 Carbine.

If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.

---------------------------

So, are we to go home and hide if our adversaries have "superior firepower"?


From Jeff Coopers Commentaries, Vol 5, No 5,

Remember the axiom that you are only "outgunned" if you miss. Only the old-timers among us remember the deserved adulation heaped upon Butch O'Hare, after whom the Chicago airport is now named. In his magnificent exploit he was the only Navy fighter plane available in the air when nine Japanese Betty's were observed in attack formation heading for the Lexington battle group. These Betty's were twin-engined medium bombers with rifle caliber machineguns forward and sideward, plus a 20mm automatic cannon as a tail stinger. The Nip formation was a V of V's flying very close together and protecting each other with their own guns. O'Hare was flying an F4F-3 armed with four 50-caliber Brownings and packing 200 rounds per gun. In plain sight he tore into that Jap formation and destroyed five bombers before he ran out of ammunition and the fight broke up.

Let our current handwringing journalists observe that he was not "outgunned."

 

[SMLE]

+1 Malamute...

A few weeks ago, 2 Albuquerque Police Officers armed with semi-auto handguns and wearing body armor were put in their graves by 1 nut with a WWI Webley revolver. On PAPER the nut was out matched and outgunned by 2 highly trained professionals, but real life don't read the paper specs. A real rifleman with an LE will walk all over a clown with an AK/M4/M16/you name it.

BTW; DevLcL, you obviously haven't heard of charger clips. I can recharge the magazine of my ShtLE as fast, maybe faster, than you can swap mags on an M1 Carbine or mini 30.

 

[Malamute]

I personally like having a general purpose rifle on hand, one that I know can cleanly take deer, elk, moose, or whatever short of the big bears, in addition to defensive duties.


The smaller caliber guns don't fit this criteria, and the 308 cal self loaders are heavy and bulky compared to a decent bolt gun. I got tired of dragging around the self loaders, in the off chance I would be rushed by a human wave of Chinese soldiers, or hordes of Canadians invading. If you don't have your gun of choice with you when bad things happen it means little to own it. I hardly ever hear of people getting in big gun battles in their gun room at home any more.The guns I tend to carry around are Winchester carbines and nice bolt guns.

 

[DevLcL]

I forgot to mention one other thing. Not everyone is Clint Eastwood. I take for example the bear story a few threads ago. He obviously knows his rifle and is quick to the draw. This guy asking if he should buy it, well, that alone says hes not extremely fimiliar with the firearm. He's not gonna be able to do what the bear-slayer did any time soon. Not to say he can't practice and become more then proficient, because he can. I've seen lots of folks totally butcher their gun-savvy act when they pick up one of my rifles and fool with it for a minute like they know what there doing when really they cant figure out how to close the action.

-Dev

 

[Pointman]

Gotta love the No5, lots of firepower in a very handy package. My favorite "shooter" No5 is actually a Long Branch No 4 Mk1* that someone cut down and put in an No5 stock. (I think someone made "kits" for this conversion many years ago ). My fau-No5 is 1.5" longer and a good pound or two heavier than my '46 Fazackerly No5. But it shoots well and I don't feel badly beating it up out in the bush and the extra weight sure doesn't hurt.

But if I didn't have this LB fau-No5 I'd just buy another Fazackerly and designate it the shooter (or grab one of my 4 No4's)

Ammo is more since the surplus on the market today is junk though.... find some South African or Greek if you can, avoid the Brit and Candian older than 1960 and anything made in Pakistan.

A No4 or No5 I'd take over a Mosin or Mauser any day.

 

[arizcowboy]

Commercially loaded 303 British ammo is WAY overpriced nowadays and it's hard to find. Unless you reload you're better off using a rifle that uses more common ammo for a SHTF scenario.

 

[scbair]

Clarity can com in a dream . . .

I own an assortment of firearms, including some semiauto rifles, riot guns and "wondernines."

Several years ago, I had a very vivid nightmare; some group (exactly who was not clear) was after me, and I determined to take the fight to the swamp (my native habitat ). I was quickly gathering arms I planned to run & hide with, to fight a hit & run action in some of Dixie's meanest terrain.

I very clearly recall passing by some really neat sidearms for a 1913-vintage M1911, in a current-issue military holster, with appropriate belt & mag pouches.

Then, I can still remember the sensation of slipping rounds into the mag of my "out-dated" No. 4 SMLE (1951 Long Branch Arsenal), and grabbing a few boxes of ammo and some stripper clips.

The rifle, handgun, some spare mags & clips, along with canteen, plastic sheeting (for shelter), good belt knife and some other basic survival gear (pack with butane lighter, folding saw, etc.) constituted all I'd be able to transport on my weary ol' back.

After some ADA (After-Dream Analysis), I concluded I had made a good choice in armament. While I couldn't carry hundreds of rounds of ammo for blazing fast mag switches, etc., the chances of my getting to USE that much ammo were slim to none, anyway. My only hope would have been to stay low, pick targets, nail them without "spraying & praying," and crawling off into the undergrowth. One worry that would not have been on my mind was a weapon malfunction. The ol' SMLE (and the ol' 1911, BTW) have not yet let me down!

Yeah, a silly nightmare, I know, but the rationale of a SMLE for that type SHTF still seems valid to me!

 

[pwrtool45]

"No way dude. You can't reload quick enough.

Get an M1 Carbine.

If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.

So, you reckon the 'extra firepower' is going to cause small groups of opponents to just sit around while you start shooting? Military tactics don't scale to the individual. Let's say it takes you .50 sec to engage two targets with solid upper thoratic hits. Now, the average reaction time is .30 sec IIRC. What do you suppose the 3'rd - n'th guy is going to be doing with the remaining .20 sec in which you're otherwise occupied?

 

[Gewehr98]

The No5Mk1 proved itself as a SHTF gun, against real people.

No way dude. You can't reload quick enough.

Get an M1 Carbine.

If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.

Yup. Once, when I was playing Counter-Strike online...

 

[Crom]

Jungle Carbine in 7.62X39: http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/m10rifles.htm

I bought a Number 5 Jungle Carbine in .303 for a truck gun about 20 years ago. I handloaded for it and got it to shoot 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Only problem was the groups tended to move around each time I took it to the range.

After a few range sessions I called a gunsmith and told him of the problem He asked me if it was British or Australian manufacture. I said British and he replied that there was a reported "wandering zero" problem with some of the British Jungle Carbine's, but that the Australian Jungle Carbine's reported no problems. Hmmm.........

I still have the gun but don't shoot it much. I did eventually buy an Enfield #4 and enjoy shooting it much more than the Jungle.

As far as using the No 5 as a SHTF gun, it depends on what else was available. Any rifle is better than no rifle at all, although there are better choices IMO.