john paul
Member
won the auction on gunbroker and was wondering if anyone else knew anything about them. 24 inch barrel, free float foreend, from rat works. website has it listed at almost 1100. any notions?
just got a new ar in 6.8
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Rossshady120
member
6.8 SPC right? i wonder how much that ammo cost
I have no info on Rat works .
Good news is the 6.8 has very interesting potential , that would go a extra bit with your 24" tube. This sounds like it might be set up for varmit/hunting/long range you name it
Bad news is the ammo is scarce ,somewhat limited and fairly expensive even by todays ammo prices. If you are not a handloader you should be
Good news is the 6.8 has very interesting potential , that would go a extra bit with your 24" tube. This sounds like it might be set up for varmit/hunting/long range you name it
Bad news is the ammo is scarce ,somewhat limited and fairly expensive even by todays ammo prices. If you are not a handloader you should be
Detritus
Member
have a quick question
Who made it??
the 6.8 SPC ARs i've been able to find listings for on either gun broker or elsewhere all seem to be clones of either an M-16A3 or an M-4 variant in all but, of course, the chambering.
I would LOVE to find a varmint style AR (IE flat top, barrel length of 20" or more, crowned muzzle w/ no flash hider, gas block instead of FSB) in 6.8 esp if that config was available as a complete upper!
Who made it??
the 6.8 SPC ARs i've been able to find listings for on either gun broker or elsewhere all seem to be clones of either an M-16A3 or an M-4 variant in all but, of course, the chambering.
I would LOVE to find a varmint style AR (IE flat top, barrel length of 20" or more, crowned muzzle w/ no flash hider, gas block instead of FSB) in 6.8 esp if that config was available as a complete upper!
Rossshady120
member
looks like your outta luck for ammo first time i heard about 6.8 the army was useing ask if UPS ships from iraq
Detritus
Member
Army never really used it in quantity, and last time i heard was either no longer using it or about to cease, the main field tests of this round/upper kit are over.
Remington and Silver State Armory are making 6.8spc ammo. got an e-mail a day or two back that mentioned having the silver state back in stock.
Kalashnikov
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The cheapest you'll find online is about $17 a box of 20. Thats from Remmington. If you find cheaper, let me know, as I just bought one myself from a high road member.
Frog48
Member
Very nice choice.
I've been kicking around the idea of getting another AR, but in either 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. I'd ove to have an AR that I can use to hunt deer, as .223 is not ideal.
I'll probably go with SPC, as it seems Grendel is doomed to be nothing more than a novelty round, due to lack of popularity. Ammo availability is always nice. Even though the ballistics gurus seem to think that Grendel is slightly better on paper, but I'd bet that the differences are insignificant and unnoticeable, in the "real-world".
Now that I've talked myself into 6.8 SPC, I'm sure that I'll change my mind to 6.5 Grendel within minutes. I go back and forth constantly, haha.
I've been kicking around the idea of getting another AR, but in either 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. I'd ove to have an AR that I can use to hunt deer, as .223 is not ideal.
I'll probably go with SPC, as it seems Grendel is doomed to be nothing more than a novelty round, due to lack of popularity. Ammo availability is always nice. Even though the ballistics gurus seem to think that Grendel is slightly better on paper, but I'd bet that the differences are insignificant and unnoticeable, in the "real-world".
Now that I've talked myself into 6.8 SPC, I'm sure that I'll change my mind to 6.5 Grendel within minutes. I go back and forth constantly, haha.
Grant,
I posted a comparison of 6.8 vs 6.5 g. You are correct.
In apples to apples comparisons, at ranges under 500 yards the grendel has a slight edge. That's mostly because there are a wide range of high BC bullets for the 6.5. vs a very small number of light 0.277 bullets for the 6.8. But 6.8 has Remington behind it, and there are bolt action rifles available, as well as the Ruger Mini-14, while the 6.5 G is basically limited to AR-15 conversions or custom bolts.
Alexander arms does know how to market, however. They compare the 6.5 Grendel with the 7.62x51mm M80 ball and go on about how 6.5 G is superior to 308. But you have to look at the comparison closely.
They are shooting 6.5 G from a 24 inch barrel - which most ARs won't have. They are comparing one of the best long range match bullets (Lapua Scenar) against a very mediocre military bullet. Guess what happens when you compare the 6.5 G with a 7.62x51mm using a similar Lapua Scenar bullet? 308 has almost double the energy at 1000 yards.
If you are looking for a hunting round for use at 350 yards or less, I'd pick 6.8 thanks to it's better availability. If you want a long range, light recoiling target round, pick the 6.5 grendel.
I posted a comparison of 6.8 vs 6.5 g. You are correct.
In apples to apples comparisons, at ranges under 500 yards the grendel has a slight edge. That's mostly because there are a wide range of high BC bullets for the 6.5. vs a very small number of light 0.277 bullets for the 6.8. But 6.8 has Remington behind it, and there are bolt action rifles available, as well as the Ruger Mini-14, while the 6.5 G is basically limited to AR-15 conversions or custom bolts.
Alexander arms does know how to market, however. They compare the 6.5 Grendel with the 7.62x51mm M80 ball and go on about how 6.5 G is superior to 308. But you have to look at the comparison closely.
They are shooting 6.5 G from a 24 inch barrel - which most ARs won't have. They are comparing one of the best long range match bullets (Lapua Scenar) against a very mediocre military bullet. Guess what happens when you compare the 6.5 G with a 7.62x51mm using a similar Lapua Scenar bullet? 308 has almost double the energy at 1000 yards.
If you are looking for a hunting round for use at 350 yards or less, I'd pick 6.8 thanks to it's better availability. If you want a long range, light recoiling target round, pick the 6.5 grendel.
HorseSoldier
Member
Like Detritus said -- that's a non-issue.
Some SOCOM units field tested 6.8mm Rem SPC chambered weapons in combat, but that three years ago or so. Final decision based on those tests was to stick with 5.56mm (logistics considerations played a big part in that). 6.8mm Rem SPC is currently a dead issue within SOCOM (and similar rounds like 6.5 Grendel were dead from the start), and I've not had any trouble finding 6.8 Rem SPC ammo in the last couple years.
john paul
Member
don't think ammo will be a problem since bass pro and gander carry it locally. i was more interested in the maker (rat works) and any info on that but thanks for the info anyway. still looking around for a good source online. i'll try to post pics when i get it!
Grendelizer
Member
Every Grendel comparison can be independently verified, if you're so inclined. How about this for comparing apples-to-apples: Black Hills Ammunition produces a 7.62 NATO match load with a 175 Sierra MatchKing at 2600 fps (BC .496). Black Hills also produces, as an exclusive for Les Baer Custom, a 6.5 Grendel load with a 123 Sierra MatchKing at 2650 fps (BC .510). Both figures are from 24" barrels.
Same ammo manufacturer. Same brand-name and style of bullet. Can't get much more apples-to-apples when comparing two different cartridges.
Now, using your favorite ballistics program, run the numbers for yourself and compare trajectory and wind-drift out to 1000 yards.
Then you can tell us whether you think AA is "massaging" the numbers for the sake of "advertising."
John
Grendelizer
Member
While the 6.8 SPC may be DOA with the DOD, it's more correct to say that 6.5 Grendel has simply had a slow start. Now that they've "been there and done that" with the 6.8 SPC, certain entities are now taking a closer look at the 6.5 Grendel. Time will tell, but the performance capability is there from 0-1000 yards (see above).
John
Kalashnikov
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Both are good at what they do. Personally I like the grendel more because I can get two boxs of grendel for one of SPC. And cases can be formed from 7.62x39.
HorseSoldier
Member
I suppose it would be wrong to say that 40 megewatt phased plasma rifles aren't really dead in military procurement circles, either -- it's just a slow start . . .
But, realistically (and mystical unnamed "entities" aside), 6.8 Rem SPC had a much more realistic shot for military use than Grendel. The non-select of 6.8 Rem SPC for special operations use does not open a door for Grendel, it closes the door for anything that's not 5.56mm or 7.62mm.
HorseSoldier
Member
He already did in a different thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=299108&highlight=grendel
Some highlights:
And this:
HorseSoldier
Member
Checking Midway USA, anything from Alexander Arms is $24.99/20. Wolf is making Grendel now, at $11.99/20, but the status is "Out of Stock, No Backorder." (Likewise, the Wolf case of 500 is not available now either.)
6.8mm Rem SPC loads (all of which are in stock and available) start down at $15.99/20 for Remington FMJ ammo and $16.99/20 for Hornady 110gr V-Max. Most other loads offered for sale come in $2-4 dollars under the Alexander Arms cost per box, except for the Remington 115gr Core-Lokt ($30.99/20).
john paul
Member
sorry guys! didn't mean to start another spc vs. grendel debate. just wanted some info!
I've talked at length with Cpt Matt Riley who is one of the infactry officers involved with evaluating alternative small arms and ammunition. The 6.5 G has some advocated, but it has problems in modified M249 and will not feed reliably. As such, it is a dead cartridge in terms of military adoption. 6.5 also has higher misfeed rates, which one would expect given the sharp shoulder and minimal body taper of the 6.5.
The reality is that in terms of procurement, a new small arm or cartridge is way down the list. The general consesus at Ft Benning is that what they have is 'good enough' for the forseeable future.
I want to know how they are getting 2650 from a Grendel with a PMax of 52,214 PSI. Alexander Arms list that load using their 'factory powder' which somehow allows them to get and extra 200 fps over the next powder at safe pressures? If they have a powder with that sort of imporvement over existing commercial powders, they don't need to worry about selling 6.5 ammo and rifles.
I looked at their next fastest load, 30.8 gns of 2520 for 2630 fps. Has someone actually fired that load? It looked awfully heavy for a case with a capacity of 35 grams of water, so I ran the numbers in quickload, and that gives an estimated chamber pressure of 71,000 PSI!!
Running the numbers for loads with reasonable pressures, it looks like 2450 fps is much more reasonable.
Here are the numbers for M118LR (all data at Army Metro)
at 1000 yards, in a 10mph cross wind, it has a velocity of 1325 fps, and energy of 682 ft-lbs, a drop 33.9 MOA (200 yard zero) and a drift of 8 MOA.
At the fantastic 2650 fps claimed by AA for the 123 SMK
At 1000 yards, in a 10 mph crosswind, it has a velocity of 1358 fps and, and energy of 505 ft-lbs, a drop of 32 MOA and a drift of 7.78 MOA.
At the more realistic 2450,
at 1000 yards, in a 10 mph crosswind, it has a velocity of 1245fps, an energy of 423, a drop of 38.4 MOA and a drift of 8.7 MOA.
PercyShelley
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I can't find anything on Rat Works. Is it possible that they've changed their name recently?
This sounds like a pretty standard target or varminting setup that just happens to be chambered in 6.8.
This sounds like a pretty standard target or varminting setup that just happens to be chambered in 6.8.
Kalashnikov
Member
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In regards to ammo I was reffering to Wolf (thankfully bought 2 cases last a couple weeks ago). AA ammo is too expensive for me.
john paul
Member
sorry the name is actually rat worx. web is www.ratworxusa.com. sorry about the misspelling!
here is the thing...
The real issue is that the Grendel can use two different bolts. It can use a 7.62x39 bolt or a 6.5 Grendel specific bolt, the difference being the head spacing is adjusted to compensate for the thinner bolt face. The 6.5 bolts are much stronger than the 7.62 bolts. The factory loads are throttled down because there are a lot of Grendel rifles floating around with a 7.62 bolts. Max loads that are perfectly safe in a rifle with 6.5 specific bolt set up can be dangerous in a 7.62 set up.
The way that I see it, the 6.8 is a band-aide for the AR/ M16/M4. The 6.5 Grendel is a true solution for the AR/M16/M4. The real problem though lies in the AR its self (mind you, I love the AR). If the mag well could accommodate a longer round (or OAL longet than the 223 but shorter than 308), then I think that the best round would be something in 6.5mm, like a 260 rem short...
The real issue is that the Grendel can use two different bolts. It can use a 7.62x39 bolt or a 6.5 Grendel specific bolt, the difference being the head spacing is adjusted to compensate for the thinner bolt face. The 6.5 bolts are much stronger than the 7.62 bolts. The factory loads are throttled down because there are a lot of Grendel rifles floating around with a 7.62 bolts. Max loads that are perfectly safe in a rifle with 6.5 specific bolt set up can be dangerous in a 7.62 set up.
The way that I see it, the 6.8 is a band-aide for the AR/ M16/M4. The 6.5 Grendel is a true solution for the AR/M16/M4. The real problem though lies in the AR its self (mind you, I love the AR). If the mag well could accommodate a longer round (or OAL longet than the 223 but shorter than 308), then I think that the best round would be something in 6.5mm, like a 260 rem short...
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