Just got a POF 416 rifle! WOW

[alpha6164]

After much research, i was at the gun show this weekend and set my eyes on a brand new POF 416 upper and lower with the predator P4x railing system. I ended up buyin a set up flip up BUIS, and an Eotech along with a 1000 rounds of .223 ammo.

I took this puppy to range today and first sighted the iron sights and at 50yrs I was easily making 2" groups. Then I turned the BUIS down and sighted in the Eotech. I initially had considered ACOG, Aimpoint or Eotech. I have no plan on using this rife for more than a 100yards so I decided that an Eotech would suit. I am glad I went that rout. The target aquisition is so easy with this thing. Once I zeroed the Eotech, i was putting everything in a nickle size groups bullseye. Ran out of time and did not try 100yards. The POF is super accurate and after about 100rounds looks clean like new. I am just waiting to get a grip pod for it.

 

[rangerruck]

pof is shrot for Patriot Ordinance, right? yeah those guys use the piston system as well, me likey.

 

[wacki]

piston system

How big of a deal is the piston system?

 

[stevelyn]

How big of a deal is the piston system?

It eliminates the weak link in the AR system which is the direct gas impingement that blows crap into the breech. It is the main reason ARs tend gag.

The piston system adds a little bulk, slightly degrades accuracy, but increases reliability.

 

[alpha6164]

Here are a couple of reviews that were done by some of the magazines. THey go into detail about the difference between the traditional gas system vs the gas-piston system. In the SAR, they shot 9000 rounds with no cleaning, before they had the first malfunction.


Small Arms Review:
http://www.pof-usa.com/POF416.pdf

 

[rangerruck]

I have used the gas piston system, and inside the receiver and bolt face, their is no carbon buildup at all , yet. i have fired about 600 rounds. We all know , if this were an ar, I would proly have had a malfunction by now, and the inside of the receiver, bolt assy. , would be caked at this point.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I've seen ARs do thousands of rounds without malfunction, just run them wet if you're sweating it. The system's tendency to stoppages, at least in modern, non-1967 Vietnam contexts, is grossly overstated in the internet.

The main thing pistons bring to the table, from a professional standpoint, is that gas piston uppers run better in sub-14.5" SBR type formats. You can make a 12" direct gas AR work, but it can be hit and miss. The gas piston system work better, or at least more reliably, at 12" and 10" barrel lengths.

For the average civilian shooter who likely doesn't feel the need to bother with an SBR (if it is even an option where they live), it really is less of an improvement than a novelty.

 

[Coronach]

It eliminates the weak link in the AR system which is the direct gas impingement that blows crap into the breech. It is the main reason ARs tend gag.

The piston system adds a little bulk, slightly degrades accuracy, but increases reliability.

I've heard from multiple people at multiple classes that this tends not to be true. Well, part of it is...the piston does add bulk and marginally decrease accuracy, but also offers no real reliability advantage. Several have gone so far as to note that the piston uppers choke more often than direct gas uppers.

Mike

 

[Zak Smith]

I have taken two fighting rifle classes in the last two years. In both classes, there was a shooter with a POF upper, and in both cases they had consistent malfunctions. In one case, at least one part of the upper broke, and the upper also had at least two catastrophic failures (e.g. requiring a screwdriver, pliers, and a bunch of pounding in the back of a truck).

This is not meant as a condemnation of the POF upper, nor of piston uppers in general, and I do not know the history and causes of the specific problems (eg, what ammo, mags, lower, etc), however... it doesn't reflect well on the POF.

 

[Jeff White]

Piston uppers offer increased reliability in 10" or shorter barrels shooting full auto. On a semi-auto weapon with a 16" street legal barrel, you're not really gaining any reliability.

For most of us they are a solution looking for a problem. That's not to say that you shouldn't have one if you want one.

Jeff

 

[Zak Smith]

One of the aforementioned failing uppers was an SBR. It was in the 10-12" range, but I don't know the exact length.

 

[Lebben-B]

As a counter-point to Zak's experiences, I've taken a couple of civilian carbine courses since I've gotten back to the States and used my POF (16" barrel) for both. I experienced no failures or issues of any sort. That said, I also use quality ammo (usually M856) and good mags.

Mike

 

[alpha6164]

Although only about 100 rounds were fired, I can tell you I did not have a single malfunction. When I got home, i took the gun apart just for kicks and it looks good as when I got it NIB. And I don't buy the "less accurate" thing either. I am no marksman or close to it and with a non-magnified Eeotech I was putting them in nick size groups. With many shot going thru the same hole. So I don't know how much more accurate it can get. I am sure with a 4x or higher magnification, it would get even better.

 

[mmike87]

Piston systems are definitely more reliable when functioning properly. Look at all the very reliable rifles that use piston operation.

However, I think that for AR's piston technology is still relatively new. The rifles don't have tons of mileage on them yet, and are produced by generally smaller companies. DI AR rifles have ~40 years of experience and improvements behind them - the piston AR rifles do not have this advantage.

I'd consider owning a piston AR rifle being an "early adopter" - and expect the potential issues that go along with being an early adopter.

In ten years piston AR's will be more widespread and probably be bulletproof. Until then, you could make a strong argument for continued use of DI rifles - which despite some issues are well known and well supported.

 

[mmike87]

Alpha - the "Predator" rail system. What do you think of it? I know a lot of folks have complained about it for some reason. How are the specs of the rails? Do standard accessories mount securely and firmly on the rail? Is the rail securely attached to the rifle with no play?

 

[alpha6164]

Alpha - the "Predator" rail system. What do you think of it? I know a lot of folks have complained about it for some reason. How are the specs of the rails? Do standard accessories mount securely and firmly on the rail? Is the rail securely attached to the rifle with no play?

I have only had the gun for a few days. So far I have attatched an Eotech and the flip down front and rear sights. They seem to be quite solid. There is no play at all between the rain and the rifle.

 

[Coronach]

And I don't buy the "less accurate" thing either. I am no marksman or close to it and with a non-magnified Eeotech I was putting them in nick size groups. With many shot going thru the same hole. So I don't know how much more accurate it can get.

The idea is that the piston system has more moving parts, therefor more stuff that can be slightly different from shot to shot, thereby affecting accuracy. I fully agree that for 99% of AR users (and for 'practical tactical' applications probably 100%) the difference is negligible. Now, if you're putting a huge scope on a heavy-barrel varmit gun and trying to push out to high-triple-digits yds, the difference might mean something.

Mike

 

[jacketch]

The weak link in the piston AR's is the gas block/barrel fit. If it is not perfect you may get binding and that will cause malf's.

I have a piston AR and like the advantage of not cleaning as often but do not see a major advantage over DGI systems.