kalibear45
Member
Better safe than sorry 
Just got a safe
- Thread starter Peetmoss
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Bosco Baracus
Member
If I have guys going for my stuff with thermic lances, I hope they can read. The No Smoking and Danger signs are there for a reason.
Bosco
1
12.7x99mm
Guest
Piority number one. all ways ...all ways buy a big safe. bigger than what you think you will need.
trvlr905
Member
Woohoo! I just bought myself a safe. Well, actually, I bought it two weeks ago, but the weather wouldn't cooperate until today. That and my buddy wasn't available to help out. No, it's not the biggest out there, but it sure was worth it, especially after learning from my Dad's experience with a break in. Bought it down at Green Top in Richmond, VA. Man, I think they're top notch. They even had me drooling over a Kimber while I was waiting for my buddy. Without further ado,
My new Browning Bridger Plus!! My goodness that thing was no fun to monkey up the steps. Yeah, now to fill it up.
My new Browning Bridger Plus!! My goodness that thing was no fun to monkey up the steps. Yeah, now to fill it up.
Fella's
Most of the 'safes' you will find for sale are not, strictly speaking, safes. They are residential secuity containers. The UL residential security container rating is to withstand 5 minutes of attack with hammer and screwdriver. Vulcan is correct in that it is the door that is rated. Unfortunatley, the other 5 sides are, depending on the brand of container, 10 to 16 guage sheet metal. Ten guage is .140" & it gets thinner as the number gets higher. In other words, they are not terribly secure.
By the way, someone mentioned Browning & Fort Knox as being 'top of the line' No, not only no, but hell no. If you want to see a true safe, as in home gun safe, go find a dealer who carries AMSEC. They make price competetive cheeseboxes also, but it is possible to get a safe from them. However, you will pay for it.
There are several smaller custom or regional safe makers who will provide you with a quality product, I don't know them all. What you are looking for though is at least B burglary rating. C is higher, then TL-15, then TL30. TL30 is overkill at 1.5" of steel throughout the safe.
Fire rating in most HSC's is 1200f for 30 min. In the test furnace, when the gas is lit, the timer starts. At 30 min to the sec, the internal transponder is read. Typically the reading will be in the 340 range & rapidly rising. Over 350 is fail point. The gas is shut off, the furnace door opened & a red-hot safe comes out on the trolley. Please do not take my word on the following, check with your fire dept. Most fully involved structure fires will hit between 1600 and 2000 degrees f at some place in the fire at some point in the fire cycle. UL fire rating is 1750 f, for 1 full hour at that temp. In other words, the temp is brought up to 1750, then the timer starts. People, this is a very BIG difference in protection levels.
HSC's will typically use gypsum wall board as the fire insulating medium. If the paper is not on, it will perhaps be called fire rock.
Sheet rock is a good flame barrier, but it simply does not have the mass to be a good heat sink. 1750 safes are usually lined with concrete. In a given size 60" X 28" X 24" a typical weight for an HSC is around 700 lbs in a fire configuration. A 'B' rated fire safe will run around 1200 to 1300 lbs in that size.
Liberty safes advertise having a composite door and they meet the Omega standard. Composite door means sheet metal wrap over a sheet rock core. Omega means they stuck 4 layers of sheet rock in the thing to take up room better spent holding guns.
But, the rating is for about 1550 for 40 min. In any case, a burglar with a 30" tire spoon is going through the door in short order.
Yes, I sell safes. This literally is my business. No I won't sell on somebody else's web site. 900F
Most of the 'safes' you will find for sale are not, strictly speaking, safes. They are residential secuity containers. The UL residential security container rating is to withstand 5 minutes of attack with hammer and screwdriver. Vulcan is correct in that it is the door that is rated. Unfortunatley, the other 5 sides are, depending on the brand of container, 10 to 16 guage sheet metal. Ten guage is .140" & it gets thinner as the number gets higher. In other words, they are not terribly secure.
By the way, someone mentioned Browning & Fort Knox as being 'top of the line' No, not only no, but hell no. If you want to see a true safe, as in home gun safe, go find a dealer who carries AMSEC. They make price competetive cheeseboxes also, but it is possible to get a safe from them. However, you will pay for it.
There are several smaller custom or regional safe makers who will provide you with a quality product, I don't know them all. What you are looking for though is at least B burglary rating. C is higher, then TL-15, then TL30. TL30 is overkill at 1.5" of steel throughout the safe.
Fire rating in most HSC's is 1200f for 30 min. In the test furnace, when the gas is lit, the timer starts. At 30 min to the sec, the internal transponder is read. Typically the reading will be in the 340 range & rapidly rising. Over 350 is fail point. The gas is shut off, the furnace door opened & a red-hot safe comes out on the trolley. Please do not take my word on the following, check with your fire dept. Most fully involved structure fires will hit between 1600 and 2000 degrees f at some place in the fire at some point in the fire cycle. UL fire rating is 1750 f, for 1 full hour at that temp. In other words, the temp is brought up to 1750, then the timer starts. People, this is a very BIG difference in protection levels.
HSC's will typically use gypsum wall board as the fire insulating medium. If the paper is not on, it will perhaps be called fire rock.
Sheet rock is a good flame barrier, but it simply does not have the mass to be a good heat sink. 1750 safes are usually lined with concrete. In a given size 60" X 28" X 24" a typical weight for an HSC is around 700 lbs in a fire configuration. A 'B' rated fire safe will run around 1200 to 1300 lbs in that size.
Liberty safes advertise having a composite door and they meet the Omega standard. Composite door means sheet metal wrap over a sheet rock core. Omega means they stuck 4 layers of sheet rock in the thing to take up room better spent holding guns.
But, the rating is for about 1550 for 40 min. In any case, a burglar with a 30" tire spoon is going through the door in short order.
Yes, I sell safes. This literally is my business. No I won't sell on somebody else's web site. 900F
I was thinking of getting a cadet on this site, and the high end model. http://www.pentagonsafes.com/ is the site. Any opinions?
S_O_Laban
Member
cb900f, thanks for the info. A friend of mine once mentioned that in a traditional house/basement that during a fire the basement was the coolest place in most fires? Maybe someone with real experience could comment further on safe placement?
JohnBT
Member
I split the difference between what I have now and what I wanted (a burglary-rated safe) and ordered a big Liberty from a local dealer. It will be delivered this week.
I helped move a big safe once when I younger, and stupider, and paying $150 for them to bring the new one and install it is easier than borrowing a truck, renting a big appliance dolly and getting 3 or 4 of my friends to show up at the same time. Taking it down the stairs would have been easy though - gravity does all the work, right?
___________
Fun things to look at...
- Check out the chart at the bottom of the page for the TL-15 and TL-30 burglary rated safes.
www.brownsafe.com/burglary_safes.html
I would have ordered the 30-cubic-footer if I was made of money. Definitely would have had to go in the basement - 3210 pounds with a 1.5-inch door and 1-inch walls.
E6034 62 x 36 x 32.5 30.7 3210 $5,402.00
- Also check out alt.locksmithing for more than you ever wanted to know. Type in 'gun safe' in the search box and check 'Search Only within alt.lock'.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&group=alt.locksmithing
Fun reading while watching basketball and listening to the rain.
And a word of warning - don't get discouraged by locksmiths talking about all gun safes being junk. They can open ALL kinds of safes, but it just takes them a little longer.
John
P.S. - trvlr905 - Green Top, my home away from home. They will sure take your money, all your money. Too many temptations in one place. Having it close by is a good and bad thing. Think I'll go there now. The range doesn't open until 1:00.
I helped move a big safe once when I younger, and stupider, and paying $150 for them to bring the new one and install it is easier than borrowing a truck, renting a big appliance dolly and getting 3 or 4 of my friends to show up at the same time. Taking it down the stairs would have been easy though - gravity does all the work, right?
___________
Fun things to look at...
- Check out the chart at the bottom of the page for the TL-15 and TL-30 burglary rated safes.
www.brownsafe.com/burglary_safes.html
I would have ordered the 30-cubic-footer if I was made of money. Definitely would have had to go in the basement - 3210 pounds with a 1.5-inch door and 1-inch walls.
E6034 62 x 36 x 32.5 30.7 3210 $5,402.00
- Also check out alt.locksmithing for more than you ever wanted to know. Type in 'gun safe' in the search box and check 'Search Only within alt.lock'.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&group=alt.locksmithing
Fun reading while watching basketball and listening to the rain.
And a word of warning - don't get discouraged by locksmiths talking about all gun safes being junk. They can open ALL kinds of safes, but it just takes them a little longer.
John
P.S. - trvlr905 - Green Top, my home away from home. They will sure take your money, all your money. Too many temptations in one place. Having it close by is a good and bad thing. Think I'll go there now. The range doesn't open until 1:00.
trvlr905
Member
I hear you, John. In fact, I'm probably going to be calling Joe tomorrow and see about ordering either a Imbel receiver for my FAL or a Benelli Nova SP with ghost rings. I think I'll hold off on the Kimber until this summer. Then I'll consider it my transfer gift. (hee hee!) Well, I guess I'll head to the range myself and get some time behind the trigger.
bad_dad_brad
Member
I don't have that much invested in firearms, so a good safe for me, would cost just a little less than my collection. No kids around either. Thefts, fires, that is what insurance is for. Record what you have offsite and keep your original sales slip offsite as well. What little I have (compared to some of you folks anyway) is replaceable. Home defense guns stored in a safe are an oxymoron anyway.
For me, the best defense against having my firearms stolen is stealth and hide in plain sight. Make the house always look occupied. Keep firearms in secret places (I have a big old house). Don't let strangers know you have firearms.
If I had rare collectables, kids at home, or a really expensive collection, then I would probably get a very good fireproof safe.
For me, the best defense against having my firearms stolen is stealth and hide in plain sight. Make the house always look occupied. Keep firearms in secret places (I have a big old house). Don't let strangers know you have firearms.
If I had rare collectables, kids at home, or a really expensive collection, then I would probably get a very good fireproof safe.
A basement placement isn't a bad idea at all. But, (there's always a but, isn't there?) be aware of some factors you may not have thought of. Check the response time of your fire dept. Just go ask them, they are generally honest & not ego stroking. What can happen, usually in a rural setting, is if the house collapses into the basement, you are going to need a very good safe as far as thermal attack protection goes. Then there's the water. The doors are not waterproof. That's a VERY expensive rarity. Make sure your basement drains can handle a lot of water. Put the safe up on non-flammable blocks. If you run the cord for a 'golden rod' into the safe, duct tape the bottom & then go inside the safe & fill the hole with plaster of paris. Don't leave a hole for free entry of heat & flame.
If you are having a problem with the dial. Leave the door open & call a locksmith, sooner rather than later. Honestly, it's not a bad idea to have the lockworks serviced every coupla years. Particulary in hot humid climates.
Insurance companies usually want a minimum bare weight of 750 lbs before they will give much of a break on your premiums. And don't really expect much of a break until & unless you can show the safe meets the full UL 1750 for one hour test. Look at it this way. If the safe survives the fire, but when you open it the stock wood is charred & the aluminum scope tubes are warped, what did you save? A lot of people are spending good money on what they think is protection. Please - do your research first. I don't want you to believe me. It's better if you think I'm lying & try to prove me wrong by doing your own research. You will (I hope) be far more likely to believe what you yourself find out. Try the Underwriters Labratory website first. 900F
If you are having a problem with the dial. Leave the door open & call a locksmith, sooner rather than later. Honestly, it's not a bad idea to have the lockworks serviced every coupla years. Particulary in hot humid climates.
Insurance companies usually want a minimum bare weight of 750 lbs before they will give much of a break on your premiums. And don't really expect much of a break until & unless you can show the safe meets the full UL 1750 for one hour test. Look at it this way. If the safe survives the fire, but when you open it the stock wood is charred & the aluminum scope tubes are warped, what did you save? A lot of people are spending good money on what they think is protection. Please - do your research first. I don't want you to believe me. It's better if you think I'm lying & try to prove me wrong by doing your own research. You will (I hope) be far more likely to believe what you yourself find out. Try the Underwriters Labratory website first. 900F
Mike Irwin
Member
Wrap the box in a couple of moving blankets. Then it looks like furniture.
JohnBT
Member
CB900F - The local fire department is 6 blocks away. They come on the run around here because these old houses have lots of dry wood in them. If my house collapses into the basement there's going to be, oh, 5 or 10 tons of plaster and brick sitting on my safe. Splat. The house was built in 1916 and the solid brick walls are 14 inches thick with 2 or 3 inches of plaster laid directly on the brick. If there isn't a complete collapse, maybe the heat-activated expanding door seal will keep the water out.
In any case, I'm more concerned with the smash and grab crackhead types. I'm in a relatively good neighborhood, but it is in the city. If they can carry more than a half-ton of safe up the basement steps they can have it.
John
P.S. - trvlr905 - Whew, went to GT and didn't buy a thing.
In any case, I'm more concerned with the smash and grab crackhead types. I'm in a relatively good neighborhood, but it is in the city. If they can carry more than a half-ton of safe up the basement steps they can have it.
John
P.S. - trvlr905 - Whew, went to GT and didn't buy a thing.
JohnBT;
Against the crackhead types a residential or home security container is good protection. For fire, NOT. Just get a solid door type, not a composit door. I've got an example in the shop of a composit door that a 15 year old kid went through in under 15 minutes. He got around 5 grand outta the safe. Then the owner came to the shop & bought a good one. 900F
Against the crackhead types a residential or home security container is good protection. For fire, NOT. Just get a solid door type, not a composit door. I've got an example in the shop of a composit door that a 15 year old kid went through in under 15 minutes. He got around 5 grand outta the safe. Then the owner came to the shop & bought a good one. 900F
sm
member
Discreet:
Well a buddy covered his with an old cardboard box that furniture came in from work, neighbors figured contents matched box. Another fellow got caught and just lied, said he was holding in hiding for his boss, he and his friends hum, hawed, grunted carrying out the empty box, tied into truck and went to a dumster to dispose of box.
Another friend got one of those old floor safes, Jiminey them things heavy. The Mrs found a large wicker dealie like a big square foot locker. Hard part was NOT grunting, sweating, and busting a gut carrying in "a light but bundlesome wicker pc". It took two "wimps" and hand truck for wicker furniture, I swear
Photos good, video also, only problem with inventory on 'puter alone, not accceptable by some, too easy to edit and add inventory. Ins buddy suggests off site storage, photo, video, hard copies of serial #'s. Another good idea is to do a walk through and video , if a tragedy occurs, difficult to recall what all one had. Pics with details. During a tragedy the mind can and will forget stuff.
Well a buddy covered his with an old cardboard box that furniture came in from work, neighbors figured contents matched box. Another fellow got caught and just lied, said he was holding in hiding for his boss, he and his friends hum, hawed, grunted carrying out the empty box, tied into truck and went to a dumster to dispose of box.
Another friend got one of those old floor safes, Jiminey them things heavy. The Mrs found a large wicker dealie like a big square foot locker. Hard part was NOT grunting, sweating, and busting a gut carrying in "a light but bundlesome wicker pc". It took two "wimps" and hand truck for wicker furniture, I swear
Photos good, video also, only problem with inventory on 'puter alone, not accceptable by some, too easy to edit and add inventory. Ins buddy suggests off site storage, photo, video, hard copies of serial #'s. Another good idea is to do a walk through and video , if a tragedy occurs, difficult to recall what all one had. Pics with details. During a tragedy the mind can and will forget stuff.
Moparmike
Member
What does one suggest for a college student on a budget? I only have $300 worth of guns (about to double with a pistol gift), so I dont need a safe that weighs more than a school bus, or a 10x20 concrete encased room with a 4" thick vault door hidden behind a false wall.
Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
Moparmike,
If you are just looking for a safe for handguns, go over to your local locksmith shop that sells safes. If they are like the ones around here, they have a ton (pardon the pun) of used safes at very reasonable prices.
The guy at the shop here said that most of the used safes that they have were gotten for free because a new homeowner, for instance, wants the thing out of the house. The locksmith won't pay anything for them because by the time he gets his truck there, gets 2, 3 or 4 guys to haul it out and gets it back to the shop.....it's not cost effective to pay for it.
I saw several safes that were anywhere from B rated to TL15 for good prices. Condition may vary.....but a little elbow grease would probably do the trick.
If you are just looking for a safe for handguns, go over to your local locksmith shop that sells safes. If they are like the ones around here, they have a ton (pardon the pun) of used safes at very reasonable prices.
The guy at the shop here said that most of the used safes that they have were gotten for free because a new homeowner, for instance, wants the thing out of the house. The locksmith won't pay anything for them because by the time he gets his truck there, gets 2, 3 or 4 guys to haul it out and gets it back to the shop.....it's not cost effective to pay for it.
I saw several safes that were anywhere from B rated to TL15 for good prices. Condition may vary.....but a little elbow grease would probably do the trick.
RustyHammer
Member
One may want to consider using a "moving tarp" to cover things like that (and/or TVs, computer equipment, etc.) when moving in and out of house. Just use a cord to secure it around the item.
Keeps nosy neighbors from seeing all your "toys".
As stated above, take precautions when disposing boxes too.
/Rusty
Keeps nosy neighbors from seeing all your "toys".
As stated above, take precautions when disposing boxes too.
/Rusty
Andrew Rothman
Member
I disagree. There is a moral obligation to make it difficult for a confirmed criminal to get access to a firearm.
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