Just got an email from my College

[Danneskjold]

These things are a joke, and there is so much unrealistic BS and misconception going on in these presentations that it really makes me sick. Rabid leftists... My university is in one of the worst parts of town, and we have one very overweight campus police officer on duty. Any armed prick bent on a bad cause is going to target that poor guy first.

I am very thankful for the training I have. I have mapped out, in the event of a crisis, the best way to get out of the building while being able to cover all my angles, and escape into a woodline. That said, it would be better if licensed students were allowed to carry, and/or more than one cop was on duty at once.

I hate the way people insist that we should not fight; have they never looked at real world violent hostage situations? The longer the attackers have to get settled, the more dangerous the situation becomes. My professor for this presentation was a police officer, and he gave a no BS lecture after giving us the school mandated crap; fight, with whatever you can. Find guys with tactical experience, or the guy who grew up wandering the woods with a rifle, the boxer, etc. and use pens, knives, fire extinguishers (big heavy beating can), chair and desk legs, and stealth to take the bastard out when he makes the mistake of getting close to you. His chief disadvantage is that his hearing is going to be screwed, and when the lights go out, you have shadows to hide in (if you're a smart one).

"You might get injured fighting someone who wishes to take you hostage and deny your liberties as a human being".

To those who tout the above... it starts with an F and ends with a u.

 

[RatDrall]

If you aren't able to carry a handgun, why not learn to fight without one?

Why not learn some footwork and how to fight with improvised weapons? The solution is only as far away as your local Fillipino Martial Arts school. They've been killing troublemakers with sticks and pointy objects for centuries, and haven't forgotten how to do it.

Too much gun dependancy...

 

[Danneskjold]

If you aren't able to carry a handgun, why not learn to fight without one?

Why not learn some footwork and how to fight with improvised weapons? The solution is only as far away as your local Fillipino Martial Arts school. They've been killing troublemakers with sticks and pointy objects for centuries, and haven't forgotten how to do it.

Too much gun dependancy...

Read my post.

I would prefer to have a gun, and they should allow us to carry, but a gun is certainly no guarantee for the attacker.

 

[RatDrall]

That wasn't aimed at you, there is a whole community here

 

[Danneskjold]

Oh I know, I just thought it might interest ya! I'm sure I was in the only class that didn't get a 30 minute seminar on how to put put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye.

 

[MikeNice]

Ratt,

I can fight with out a gun. However, I would much prefer to fight an active shooter with a fire arm. A double tap cener mass is a lot more effective than trying to jump him from behind with a pocket knife or scalpel.

You can get the job done with a stick, chair leg, or pair of scissors, but it puts the defender at a distinct disadvantage.

 

[hirundo82]

Bah. concealed means concealed.

I'll take the trespassing ticket AFTER I've stopped the madman, thanks.

That's a fine attitude for states where carrying on campus is only a violation of school policy, but many of us live in states where being caught with a gun on campus is a felony charge (i.e. permanent loss of firearm rights).

 

[CSballer89]

My best suggestion is to try and level the playing field as much as possible. Since the would be shooter would possibly be shooting everything that moves, try pulling the fire alarm. Should be loud enough to mask any sounds you make to counter-strike. Also the fire extinguisher is a nice option, blast them in the face with white powder and then crack them in the head when he/she can't see.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I see no followup from Grunt, so I take it that he did not attend the presentation. Since campuses do not allow for concealed carry, such presentation are helpful to help illustrate some of the options available to students during a crisis and to let them know some of the things that will go on.

Having taught at two universities after attending several, my impression of the preparedness of most students is just above that of a newborn kitten. Foresight and preparedness for far too many is planning how to get beer for the upcoming weekend. For example, rape prevention talks are usually poorly attended unless there have been a series of rapes on campus. If people aren't getting raped, why waste the time?

I just had the same thing here at my campus. We were told to run, hide, duck, cover, and wait for the police to arrive. The most disturbing thing was the section on sexual assault and rape. They gave the great advice of peeing your pants and claiming you have a STD to make yourself seem less appealing. They also told us that if our life is in danger that we should go along with their demands, and wait for a way out.

I was furious to say the least.

Okay good, you were furious. What did you do about it? What means of self defense do you propose for potential rape victims who at most likely aren't going to make any preparations other than going to one of those talks? How many gals do you see in your dorm practicing self defense moves? How many do you see attending weight training classes? Given that guns aren't allowed, how many are involved in open hand self defense and fighting classes? How many do you see on campus every day that aren't locked in their own little worlds, clueless to their surroundings? (this goes for guys as well) The simple answer is "VERY FEW."

If you aren't able to carry a handgun, why not learn to fight without one?

Why not learn some footwork and how to fight with improvised weapons? The solution is only as far away as your local Fillipino Martial Arts school. They've been killing troublemakers with sticks and pointy objects for centuries, and haven't forgotten how to do it.

Too much gun dependancy...

Right RatDrall, and if you spend much time here or on other gun forums, you notion of dependancy shows up very clearly. Too many gun owners consider themselves to be defenseless without a gun and state this explicitly. This notion of defenselessness is backed up by the claims that no-gun zones are "victim zones" because apparently not having a gun makes you a victim. What is ironic is how well prepared many folks consider themselves to be for conflict...if they have agun, and who proclaim being defenseless without a gun...which really reflects a startling lack of preparedness on their parts. Like college students, many gun owners want to do as little as possible to get by with being prepared for the next test and a lot just want a passing grade, nothing more.

So what is the best active shooter defense strategy for students who as a general rule do very little preparation for such problems and who can't have guns on campus? Barricading in place is pretty good, though as pointed out above, useless if you can't actually barricade.

My personal opinion is that the best defense in such a situation is to not be there. If you can take flight and remove yourself from the danger, then you are safer than barricading in place. The problem with taking flight is that it may expose individuals to danger that they might not otherwise be exposed to if barricaded, but it also means that they aren't trapped by their defense plan. Every option carries its own set of risks.

The only comfort I can think of is that A: Someone who can Concealed carry does so anyway, or B: One of the numerous vets from Iraq and Afghanistan take matters into their own hands

For B: we saw how well that worked out at Fort Hood last year. Being a combat vet does not mean that you will necessarily be able to stop a shooting gunman single-handed. Combat vets bleed just like the rest of us. I do find it interesting that without a gun, you are looking to others for your protection.

The problem from the University POV is students. with over 50,000 on our campus the thought of most of them carrying is scary to the Admins and lawyers.

Given many of the boneheaded things college students do (on a daily basis as perceived by the administration), a campus full of guns is a scary consideration. We certainly have seen plenty of videos and read plenty of news accounts of gun owners doing stupid stuff and having NDs that cause harm to themselves or others. Their concerns may be misplaced in many regards, but it isn't like there are any trends to the contrary to show that college kids are getting more responsible than they have been in the past.

 

[MikeNice]

Given many of the boneheaded things college students do (on a daily basis as perceived by the administration), a campus full of guns is a scary consideration. We certainly have seen plenty of videos and read plenty of news accounts of gun owners doing stupid stuff and having NDs that cause harm to themselves or others.

The thing is that if they allow people with CCH permits to carry less than five percent of them will. If they limit it to students that do not live on campus the number will drop even further. This idea that every student will suddenly take up arms if it is allowed is not supported by reality.

In NC about 6,702,359 people are of legal age to obtain a CCH permit. Only about 200,000 have CCH permits. Less than three percent of people eligible for CCH permits actually get them. On a campus the numbers would be lower in NC because only state residents can apply for a CCH permit.

If administrators took time to think these things through they would realize the number would be miniscule. They would be enough to out number the usual lone gunner though. Plus those that actually obtain a CCH permit are highly unlikely to be negligent with their weapon.

In NC about 0.5% of CCH permit holders have their permit revoked. The numbers aren't broken down by reason. If the hold true to form for most other states only about 0.2% percent of CCH permit holders lost their permit due to missuse of their gun.

On a campus campus with 50,000 students, if 10% are out of state students, you would only have about 1,350 students carrying. In a worst case scenario only 4 of those people will ever use their gun in an inapropriate way.

That doesn't mean that 4 students will shoot somebody. They could lose their permit for pulling their gun at the wrong time. If they let it show they can lose it for "carrying to cause terror." Of those four there is no promise they'll do anything stupid to lose their permit during their college years.

If you limit it to students that have a CCH, and live off of campus, you reduce the numbers and probability even further.

 

[withdrawn34]

Given many of the boneheaded things college students do (on a daily basis as perceived by the administration), a campus full of guns is a scary consideration. We certainly have seen plenty of videos and read plenty of news accounts of gun owners doing stupid stuff and having NDs that cause harm to themselves or others. Their concerns may be misplaced in many regards, but it isn't like there are any trends to the contrary to show that college kids are getting more responsible than they have been in the past.

I'm afraid your reasoning is invalid. Allowing students to carry on campus simply means allowing students who are already permitted to carry off campus (in most states, over 21 as well) to also carry to class. If they're standing next you buying watermelon at the grocery store with no problem, what makes you think they're going to turn into reckless idiots the second they step on campus? Most of those stereotypical college parties often happen off campus, where the carry ban doesn't apply anyway. And besides, we're talking a 21 year old, not a 18 year old freshman. By 21, much of the irresponsible party bug has been matured out of most students.

It always irks me to see many others in the gun community fight against the youngest segment of the gun community and want to deny them their basic rights based on irrationality and emotion - the exact tools of anti-gunners. These are the people who the future of the pro-gun movement, and all people like you do is serve to alienate them. Not a good move whatsoever.

In addition, you have fallen to the anti trap of assuming that because permitted individuals will be allowed to carry, suddenly everyone will be walking around with fully automatic AK-47s, with handguns taking the place of each blade of grass, and NDs killing everyone in all the classes, all the time, 24/7/365. No.

 

[Bovice]

Since this is Strategies and Tactics, I'll share with you my strategy and tactics for how I would handle a shooter on campus.

Carrying a gun is against the rules. Abiding by the rules, you still have some options. The largest one that sticks out to me is a folding knife. Lots of people have them in their pockets. No one even blinks an eye when they see the belt clip sticking out.

So let's say there's a shooter on campus. You follow the protocol of locking up the room and staying put. Shooter comes to the door, and manages to break in. You, standing against the wall but out of view of the window in the door, have your folding knife ready. Shooter walks in RIGHT past you, and you cut him three ways: Deep, wide, and often.

After you've made a filet of the shooter, retrieve the weapon, unload it, and keep it out of anyone's reach. Notify the police by any means you have, whether its a phone or coming outside with your hands up toward the sky.

It's not a sure thing, but nothing in life is.

 

[milq]

My first post 'round here...

Ratt,
I agree that folks can (and should) fight back in the absence of a defensive weapon, if possible. I teach at a small midwestern college and most of our students are physically capable of fighting back, albeit most are not trained to do so (many can barely find their way to class some days and many have no initiative whatsoever anyway...but that's a societal problem IMO).

Anyway...what about the students in wheelchairs or other physical barriers that may prevent them from fighting back? They too, have a right to self defense.

I am for CCW on campus (sadly I'm in IL so we don't have it anywhere) even though I understand it causes some to quake in their boots. We have guns on campus as we have added a Gunsmithing degree program in the past 2 yrs, even this caused some commotion among the worst of our liberal faculty but that has since passed as they now see that none of their predicted problems have occurred.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Ok, so last semester a 'bum smelling of alcohol' (a big problem that no body seems wiling to do anything about)

attempted to grab a female student between student house and the main campus, a nice wooded trail that goes between landscaping (large wooded area) and the back side of the hospital, the UP is pretty good about keeping camp sites (bums) out of the campus woods.

Anywho she fought her way free, and all the campus did was issue a warning, suggest buddies, add a blue-light phone (escort request/PD) and hold a sensing session about the issue of homelessness and drug use.

where is the anger at the guy who did this, all you get is pity. Hate the attitude, no body is wrong, and in that environment, you will get 'tolerated' to death.
sorry it's a bit of a rant, but in the end, while they want to 'raise' the kids, the don't want any responsibility for their safety cause they are 'adults'

 

[Danneskjold]

After you've made a filet of the shooter, retrieve the weapon, unload it, and keep it out of anyone's reach. Notify the police by any means you have, whether its a phone or coming outside with your hands up toward the sky.

Keep his gun loaded and clear your immediate area, and watch all entrances; there could be more than one attacker. Also, be making contact with the police.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

Bovice, that's been my plan as well.


Double Naught, while I am not defenseless without a gun, I also don't want to bring a knife to a gunfight.


I talked to my Friend about this (he's against), his first concern was the wild west vigilante hunting down the badguy scenario, which I shot down pretty easily. His second was the factor of police confusion, which I had no valid answer for.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I'm afraid your reasoning is invalid. Allowing students to carry on campus simply means allowing students who are already permitted to carry off campus (in most states, over 21 as well) to also carry to class. If they're standing next you buying watermelon at the grocery store with no problem, what makes you think they're going to turn into reckless idiots the second they step on campus?

First of all, it isn't my reasoning. Secondly, the reasoning isn't invalid as it is a perception. The trick is to change the perception of those who make the rules. It matters not one iota if their reasoning is valid or not as it is their perception or belief and the general population of college students is really not doing anything to appear to be any more responsible now than 10 or 20 years ago.

Contrary to my views above, I am all for campus carry. It is just that being part of the establishment has certainly exposed me to a lot of the considerations as to why they (the establishment) do many of the things they do and why they have rules in place. Keep in mind that this rules also keep faculty and staff from carrying as well.

I think people with CCW permits should be able to carry on campus. At the same time I can also see where being 21 or 22 isn't a magical number for maturity, especially when students are involved in group activities.

If you can come up with convincing data and use that data to sway college administrators or state legislators to make changes that would allow concealed carry on campus, that would be outstanding. However by and large, college students do not have the stereotypical persona of being the pillars of stability and responsibility and that isn't apt to change anytime soon.

 

[Erik M]

there were 2 rapes reported on campus when I was in college. All the campus police did was tell females not to go out after dark alone. One of the rapes happened during daytime hours.

 

[kayak-man]

Oh, Police Confusion.

Its very possible that the police would mistake an armed citizen who is trying to help for one of the gunman. That is a very good reason for an armed citizen to keep their gun holstered, but it is not a good reason to disarm the citizen. If I'm armed, and I shoot the gun man, there is the Possibility that the police will shoot me. If I do nothing, the gunman is Definitely going to shoot me. To me, using the argument of "police confusion" as a reason not to be armed, is saying that I should have fewer options because there are risks. I feel that I am the only person who has any right to decide what risks are acceptable and what aren't.
For the community, wouldn't it be better that I stop the gunman, and am accidentally shot by the police, than the gunman shoot me and ten other people, before the police stop him.

If I completely misinterpreted your use of the phrase 'police confusion' I apologize, and would not mind in the slightest if you corrected me. Also, the tone of this rant wasn't supposed to be preachy or condescending or patronizing, and I'm sorry if it came off like that.

his first concern was the wild west vigilante hunting down the badguy scenario

Personally, I think that might be an effective, albeit socially unacceptable strategy

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

No, its fine, that's what he meant.


Good counter point though!

 

[Warhawk83]

So, they're actually encouraging people to be sitting ducks. Awesome.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

Also, I didn't go. I barely attend class

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Also, I didn't go. I barely attend class

Yep, impressive college student responsibility. It is hard for the administration to take such individuals seriously, especially those that complain about lectures that they don't attend. Wow.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

I try.

 

[Zoogster]

The problem from the University POV is students. with over 50,000 on our campus the thought of most of them carrying is scary to the Admins and lawyers.

Given many of the boneheaded things college students do (on a daily basis as perceived by the administration), a campus full of guns is a scary consideration.

Only when they think of it that way, listening to the anti's talking points.

The truth of the matter is that a significant number of students in universities and community colleges are 18-20, and CCW begins at a minimum age of 21 in the majority of the nation.

So you subtract all the 18-20 year old students, including most who at 18 are entering for a two year degree, who probably couldn't even legally carry most of their time there.
Then those there entering at 18 for a four year degree couldn't carry until almost halfway done.

Many of those actually carrying would be older adults going back to school. Not the age bracket typically associated with most of the problems on a campus (fresh young students on their own for the first time and taking advantage of not having a parent keeping tabs on them).

Then you factor in the percentage of those who would even choose to carry out of those who legally could.
Only a small percentage of the population carries. The number who have a carry permit even in the states with the most is typically well under 5% of the total population and many less than 1%.
Out of those who have a carry permit, quite often less than half actually carry. They have it just so they can, or they can have more freedom while hunting, but guns easier, or thought they would carry but stopped going through the routine of strapping it on every time they go out.

So if 25% of the student body was legally allowed to carry, and you had a full 5% of people in your state with a Concealed Carry permit (few states are that high) , and half of them actually carried giving you 2.5% of 25% of 50,000 students...
You would have a whopping 625 people with a permit, and just over 300 actually carrying.
Even if you double that it is not a lot of people carrying.
You would be lucky to get more than one or two per classroom with those numbers. Some classrooms would still have none, and some that are more attractive to certain types might have up to a handful.