just got back from Appleseed! Some observations, what i learned, and some questions.

[mr.trooper]

I just got back from an Appleseed shoot in Evansville IN! My girlfriend went with me, and we stayed for both days. Iv GOT to say that I learned a TON of new information. I went into this thinking that i knew how to shoot; lets just say that my education was far from complete.

keeping warm! It was in the upper 30's, with a constant 10-15mph wind for both days. We were all ice cubes by the end of day 2!


The firing line: my quick estimate of the hardware is 50% Ruger 10/22s, 30% marlin model 60s, and 20% a mixture of various bolt guns and lever actions.


And the most important thing: LUNCH! It was quite yummy, and I'm sure your all jealous!


What i learned:
First off, i learned that i previously had NO idea what accuracy really was. I thought i was a good shooter, but on the first day, i was not able to complete the course of fire reliably.

Most importantly, i learned what NPOA is. i had never heard that term before. Ever. Iv been shooting for years, reading gun rags for years, and posting on forums like this one for years, and i have never heard this concept mentioned ONCE. Its so simple, and IT WORKS. Iv burned up literally thousands of rounds at the range for each incremental increase in accuracy, and after years of practice was still only a 100 yard shooter. But the RWVA instructors took me to to point that i KNOW I can hit a target out to 400 yards with iron sights, and no bench... and they got me there with only 300 rounds. Ill repeat that; I know that I can hit my target consistently out to 400 yards with no optics, or bench rest.

Now, i realize the limitations of this technique. Its Achilles heel is that you need to to have enough time get into position. That time drastically decreases with practice. The drastic increase in long range accuracy for a few seconds of warning seems like a great tool to have in the toolbox. Another glitch in the system is the difficulty of applying it to defensive techniques. But the applications for hunting and field work are numerous.

What makes me raise my eyebrow are the results i got when i Google searched NPOA after returning home. It turned up old threads on TFL where posters were saying how useless NPOA is because you cant apply it to a pistol, and because it cant be applied while standing. Yes...yes you can. You sure as heck CAN shoot NPOA standing; we did it numerous times over the two days of Appleseed. furthermore, while slinging up your handgun may be a problem, the other 6 steps of shooting are completely applicable to shooting anything that throws a projectile.

It kind of boggles my mind that the only information out there are a couple of miss-informed diatribes written by people who clearly have no grasp of what NPOA actually is. As I have previously stated, NPOA does have its drawbacks, and is certainly not an en-all-be-all technique. BUT WHAT GIVES? Whats with all the hate and mis-information?

In conclusion, the two days we spent at Appleseed dramatically increased our marksmanship, and we BOTH had an absolute BLAST participating.

At the end of day 2, when we shot out AQTs, I missed "expert" by a couple of measly points. Oh well, ill make it for sure next time!

 

[longdayjake]

So with all your excitement you forgot to mention what the heck NPOA is. You would think that since you had never heard of it that there may be others that might not know what it is either. I am curious.

 

[Jason_G]

Glad you had fun. I've heard some folks knocking it because you spend most of your time shooting at 25 yds, but fundamentals are fundamentals, regardless of yardage. This is something I definitely want to do. Did you guys camp?


ETA for longdayjake: NPOA is natural point of aim.

Jason

 

[taliv]

not sure what thread you're talking about since i don't read TFL, but did you search here?

56 threads turned up and i bet there's a lot more than don't use the acronym. i doubt many if any of them are negative.

 

[mr.trooper]

Nope, i did a Google search, which normally pulls results from several firearms forums.

Natural Point of Aim is a technique that uses the shooters body as a platform to fire the weapon.

Basically you lock the weapon down with your sling. The bore of the weapon will naturally be pointing somewhere. instead of moving your arms an using your muscles to get the weapon on target, you pivot your body around a fixed point until your weapons sights are on target. With this accomplished, the sights and the bore will stay on target. Maintaining this position, the only things you need to worry about are breathing and trigger pull.

 

[7mmsavage]

First of all, Appleseed is great! The first time I heard about NPOA was also at an Appleseed. Another new to me term the instructors used was, "dragging wood" which described the shooter's trigger finger making contact with the stock while sqeazing the trigger, which can shift point of aim. These, along with the sling techniques, breathing, and just the basics of the proper way to hold the rifle, made me, and can make you a better shooter.

 

[Geno]

Glad to hear you enjoyed yourself.

The NPOA also applies with handguns firing. Drop the handgun to a 45 degree angle down, then raise it to target. Drop it, and re-raise it. Each time you retarget, the sights should come back to the same POA. If not, ajust stance. Of course, that is for stantionary shooting.

Doc2005

 

[mr.trooper]

Well thanks for the positive comments everyone!

I posted this report on a different forum, and I got an ear full about how "scaled yardage is no replacement for actual yardage", and how "If you had ever takes such and such course before you would already know that". ect.

 

[onebigelf]

Looking forward to catching the next Appleseed in my area and I'm trying to talk the local range into hosting one for my convenience <grin>.

John

 

[taliv]

well, mr.trooper, scaled yardage really isn't a replacement because as i'm sure you know, you don't have to adjust your sights for drop or deal with wind, and targets just don't look the same out there.

your statement that "know" you can hit your target was probably a bit optimistic if you haven't actually shot at that range.

no big deal though. reduced courses are good enough for NRA HP and they're certainly good practice and a good way to learn. eventually though, you need to go shoot at the longer distances.

 

[jbech123]

scaled courses are of course not a direct replacement for the actual yardages, but you can still learn a helluva lot and accomplish much of what you need to. This is especially true when it comes to getting actual range time in. So you want to shoot at say, 1000 yards and your goal is to be able to hit a 10" circle at that distance. I realize that is not benchrest accuracy but for an average guy a reasonable goal. Maybe there is not a range that long anywhere near you and you could only get there once every 3 months. Practicing shooting at a 500 yard range every weekend would take care of most of the practice needs you have. Sure at 1000 there are more wind variables, the much faster trajectory drop as you get out past 600 yards or so, etc... but shrink your circle down to say 3" at 500 yards and practice weekly. If ammo starts getting expensive, start shooting a fairly accurate .22lr at 200 yards - that can be a humbling experience on a breezy day!
You will still have a few things to learn when you do shoot at 1K, but you will be infinitely better prepared.

 

[elmerfudd]

I tend to agree that scaled yardage isn't a perfect substitute, but I think that you can develop probably 80% of the skills necessary to hit at a distance using scaled yardage.

I think that Appleseed is great training, especially considering the very low price, but I also tend to think that it's a bit constrained by old military doctrines and some of the history taught is a bit dubious.

 

[EyebrowZing]

NPOA is what I was taught in Marine Corps boot camp, and it works. The marksman instructors train roughly 600 recruits a week, so it can't be much of a joke. We actually spent more time 'snapping in' than actually on the range. An entire week, at least 8 hours a day setting up our positions and figuring out our NPOA, sighting in on an old oil drum with scaled silhouettes painted on it, and practicing breathing with that slow steady squeeze. After that an 200 rounds of practice we were hitting targets standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone from 200 to 500 yards away.

 

[shllyshny]

Ill repeat that; I know that I can hit my target consistently out to 400 yards with no optics, or bench rest.

That doesn't look like a 400m range. There's a big difference between shooting scaled ranges and kd. The most noticeable being, say, a half moa group at 25m will translate into a two inch group at 100m, four inches at 200, so forth and so on. Also, a 20mph full value wind will have negligible effects up to 100m, but is a major consideration when shooting out to 400m. Some other external ballistic factors that would come into play at mid to long ranges are temp, humidity, slope of the terrain, etc.

Excellent instruction on natural point of aim, it sounds like, though.

Good report!

 

[Dienekes]

I found your comment about reading gun rags for years without learning about NPOA etc. for years interesting.

However I would find it even more interesting if you HAD learned much of anything from reading them. It'd be like asking a high school sophomore to teach you about women. Wrong place to go for useful information...

Sounds like you got a lot in a short time. Now go forth and build on it.

Good job.

 

[cracked butt]

It kind of boggles my mind that the only information out there are a couple of miss-informed diatribes written by people who clearly have no grasp of what NPOA actually is. As I have previously stated, NPOA does have its drawbacks, and is certainly not an en-all-be-all technique. BUT WHAT GIVES? Whats with all the hate and mis-information?

Google 'Jim Owens'

He has some books that he's written on CD form along with DVDs. The "Trigger control, sight picture, and the big lie" CD will do more for your shooting abilities than reading all of the gun forums in the world.

This book has tons of information about positional shooting and npoa as well:
http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Highpower-Competition-Randolph-Constantine/dp/1931220050

I bought a copy for around $35 a few years ago, but I cannot remember from where.

I don't know of any drawbacks of npoa- its absolutely critical for consistant shooting.

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Shooting at scaled targets at reduced ranges is excellent practice. You can't see a .223 hole at 300 yards, let alone 600 yards. Shooting a good accurate .22 at 25 yards not only allows you to practice fundamentals on the cheap, but you also get instant feedback as you can see the holes easily with a spotting scope. You don't get to practice wind doping at 25 yards, but that really doesn't do you any good anyway until your positions and skills are solid enough to be able to call every shot.

 

[bratch]

I had good luck at my last Appleseed. Saturday and Sunday morning was shot at 25 yards Sunday afternoon we got to shoot KD. My scores on the 300 yd KD were nearly identical as my scores on the reduced target.

This was the first time I'd ever slung up and tried to shoot iron sights at 300 yards.

I came away very impressed with shooting reduced targets and transfering it to KD. I just wish my local indoor range would let me shoot positions.

 

[Oohrah]

Bad habits easy to pick up on scaled targets and another reason why
rifles are zeroed close up first. Not too easy to find impact points at
400 yards. Quite correct that this method is also taught in the Marine
Corps and dry fire snapping in was done at least in the early 60s and late
50s. Appleseed is a great program that I have attended two in 2006.
Only thing I can see missing with the reduced targets is you don't have
to dope the wind! Looks like ammo prices have turned thoughts to 22s.
They were in the minority at the ones I attended.

 

[tmajors]

So with all your excitement you forgot to mention what the heck NPOA is.

Natural Point of Aim. In short, the theory is that you muscle your gun to the sight picture. Instead you should learn where your natural point of aim is and put your gun on that.

 

[tmajors]

Looks like ammo prices have turned thoughts to 22s.

Know it has for me. Just wish .22's weren't so ammo picky.

 

[mr.trooper]

Iv shot at 400 yards before. It was very hit or miss.

Now that I know how to shoot properly, i know i will do much much much better next time.

 

[Jason_G]

Quite correct that this method is also taught in the Marine
Corps and dry fire snapping in was done at least in the early 60s and late
50s.

I think they were doing that at least during the 40's, but I might be wrong.

Jason

 

[useful_idiot]

a half moa group at 25m will translate into a two inch group at 100m, four inches at 200,

I'm attending the Appleseed in Ramsuer, NC Jan. 3-4th and was doing a quick search on THR for info/experiences...and had a question about the above quote.

I thought a 1/2 moa group at 25M would be a 1/2 inch group at 100M and a one inch group at 200M...?

 

[taliv]

you are correct, useful

well, s/meters/yrds

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I am a believer of NPOA. Setting up into position to fire while standing or sitting involves a systematical approach. Practice and practice alot. I wish I had more time to hit the ranges.