Just how accurately can you stab?

[Owen Sparks]

The finest custom made combat folder in the world is not much good if you can’t quickly and accurately direct your blade into a vital target such as an eye socket.

Here is the challenge:

Get a cardboard box and place it somewhere at the height of your face. Take a quarter out of your pocket and draw a circle around it on the box. Now, take a step back and quickly draw and open your knife and see if you can hit somewhere on that circle with one full speed stab. Fold up your knife, put it back in your pocket and draw and stab again at full speed. Try this procedure 10 times and see how many times you miss.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Uh...

Knife for self defense? No. I mean, no.

It is peacetime here, so, no need to stab anyone in the eye.

 

[Telekinesis]

Knife for self defense? No. I mean, no.

I know you're in Europe so you probably have different issues in regards to the legalities of carrying guns and knives, but I know that in the US there are certain situations where its not legal or practical to carry a gun all the time. For example, college students can't carry in the majority of schools, and in some of those that they legally can, they face expulsion if they get outed, or in states that don't allow carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol (like a nice place that offers wine with dinner). Just because you can't carry your gun doesn't mean you have to be completely unarmed. And a knife is better than a fist or pointy stick. Not to mention the million other uses of a knife that have nothing to do with defense.

I'm not exactly sure why the OP has decided that the eyes are the perfect target. I honestly think the neck/throat would make a better target based on its size and importance in getting blood to the brain, but I think its more likely that in a real fight the torso will be a much easier target to hit.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Telekinesis,

To me it is more about ethics, than law. The last thing I want is someones life on my conscience. As I have said here before, you can come at me with "'l'll kill ya" attitude and I will probably still try my best not to hurt the attacker (been there, done that...). But it depends, of course.

Besides, I see a situation where "deadly force" would be necessary as very, very, very distant a possibility - regardless of the fact that our society is, if you look at the statistics, somewhat violent.

 

[Bobson]

You mean if someone were making his best effort to kill you, you would be making your best effort to de-escalate the situation without using deadly force? I think that would be my last concern...

Also, regarding your challenge, OP. I haven't done this today, but I have practiced it in the past (more out of curiosity than anything else), and you bring up an important point. Its not as easy as one might expect. I think most will miss at least 70% on a "first run." Like Telekinesis said, I think the eye is a poor target for a knife (much better target of opportunity for fingers), but it still illustrates an important point.

 

[JVoutilainen]

You mean if someone were making his best effort to kill you, you would be making your best effort to de-escalate the situation without using deadly force?

As I said, it depends, but generally speaking... yes.

Then again, threaten my family, particularly my young daughter, or someone I perceive as being defenseless... and you change the dynamics of the situation somewhat. Might make me a bit more unforgiving.

I think that would be my last concern...

Well, now you know that my own survival is not my primary "concern".

 

[blarby]

I'm not exactly sure why the OP has decided that the eyes are the perfect target. I honestly think the neck/throat would make a better target based on its size and importance in getting blood to the brain, but I think its more likely that in a real fight the torso will be a much easier target to hit.

http://www.documentingreality.com/f...46d1234484263-man-dies-many-stab-wounds-7.jpg

A quarter might be a lil small....mebbe a baseball sized target ?

Quarter would be a great "benchrest" test. Try hitting a moving box with a quarter taped to it

 

[JShirley]

The last thing I want is someones life on my conscience

Oddly enough, the last thing I want is to be raped, and then someone else hurt because I wasn't sufficient or detemined enough to stop a threat. But that's just me.

You have to understand: I will do my best to act peaceably, and reach out in love to those around me. If someone attempts violence on me, they have made that choice. And I am worse than a dog if I let my namby-pamby sensitive little feelings let someone else get hurt because I haven't done my duty.

I suggest that a full 16-20oz water bottle be used instead of a knife to practice these strikes. It's a lot less likely that you'll accidentally stab yourself as you build skill, and you'll also learn just how effective such a simple, legal tool can be. And the skill will translate. Something to remember: don't stare at your target area. Learn to keep a wide, open gaze, instead of over-focusing on the target.

It is peacetime here

I respectfully submit, that if you're being attacked, at that instant in time, it is NOT "peacetime (there)".

John

 

[Owen Sparks]

Maybe my original post came across as a little too harsh for some of the more sensitive members. I used the example of an eye socket simply because it the smallest target that you might have to stab. Nobody except a psychopath WANTS to have to stab someone, then again nobody wants to have their abdomen split open either. But if you found out that you had cancer you would actually pay someone to cut you open if that is what it took to fix it. Self-defense is like surgery in that it is a distasteful job that sometime has to be done in order to save your life. Stabbing someone is not the LAST thing I would want to do, but it is next to the last.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Let's see.

I get told from all manner of apparently reputable sources that head shots with a handgun are likely to be difficult because the head is a small target, and very likely to be moving to boot.

But I should practice stabbing someone in the eye with a knife??

Owen, I'm not sqeamish hardly at all, but I do like to think of myself as practical and realistic. And I just can't foresee any reasonable likelihood of me ever having call to stab someone in the eye. Any stabbing I ever have to do is more likely to be based on feel rather than hitting a target I can actually see, and my target is likely to be somewhere to the side of the spine, above the hip and below the ribs. And even that is pretty unlikely.

 

[hso]

The ABS now includes a "stabbing" exercise as part of their cutting rodeos. Their "birdhouse" has vertical, horizontal and round cutouts 4" in length/diameter. Behind those cutouts are small water bottles. The person being tested stands just out of arms length of the targets and must thrust through the openings without stepping towards it or stopping and they must pierce the bottle through the opening enough to make it to be considered to have passed.

The test is intended to test the eye/hand coordination of the person in the cutting competition and the sharpness and tip strength of the knife being used.

Also, anyone that has fenced remembers practicing thrusts over and over and over again at small targets. Doing such practice with a shorter blade isn't any different.

The choice of words was a bit hyperbolic on Owen's part, but the point that you have to practice tip work shouldn't be lost just because of that.

 

[JVoutilainen]

jshirley,

Oddly enough, the last thing I want is to be raped, and then someone else hurt because I wasn't sufficient or detemined enough to stop a threat. But that's just me.

Who said I am not determined? Did I say that? I don't think I did. Moreover, I did not say that I would allow myself to be killed, raped or otherwise assaulted. But, I'll be honest with you and say that I would do everything in my power NOT to permanently injure (or kill) even in a situation where my life would be threatened. I'm willing to risk my life in so doing - and I have.

Now, why is that? Because in my youth I was a pretty violent guy. Did some nasty things and now... I honestly regret it all. Especially situation where I knew I had alternatives, but decided it was a great idea to simply knock my opponents lights out.

I respectfully submit, that if you're being attacked, at that instant in time, it is NOT "peacetime (there)".

With similar respect I will have to disagree. You see I know that many people these days do not have a solid grasp of reality, they lack the ability judge their actions, and more to the point, the possible consequences of their actions. You are basically saying that it does not matter. If they attack you all restrictions are off. Your choice, and I respect that. But, I could not live with that choice.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I have an old archery target hanging from a tree on my property. I randomly drew quarter sized spots all over it with a marker and use that as a free swinging moving target. After a few hundred stabs a day you will get pretty good at hitting a small target. I concider a "hit" as anything that touches the 1" black spot. Aim small miss small.

 

[Carl Levitian]

Hmmm, interesting post.

I don't know where some off this comes from, but trying to hit a small moving target an inch in diameter while engaging in close vicious combat, well, too many people thinking they're Arimis, Athos, or Porthos. It ain't gonna work.

Real life is very unforgiving, and brutal. Close ugly encounters are not something out of a novel, but a few seconds of dirty terror. Growing up in the northeast neighborhoods of Washington D.C. gave me a good idea early on as to what real life on the street is like. When something happens, it's so fast that there is no time to think of tactics, and the simpler the better counter action is good. Too many people try to over think and over plan the situation. Get too fancy, and have too many ideas of their own capabilities.

Stab someone in the eye? Man, your gonna be lucky if you even connect with a blade in a good spot without the second guy nailing you in the back. They always operate in twos and three's. You'll be lucky if you even have time to draw the knife from where you have it. This ain't the three musketeers out there. Take a walk down North Capital street or Irving street, and se how many of the men walking around have a nice sturdy stick right in their hand. That is not an accident of inner city style. Nobody in their right mind goes knife to knife with an attacker. Especially trying to stab some street hood in the eye.

If by some reason of being ill prepared, and all you have is a knife, and by some miracle you got it out in time to make any difference, what are you going to do about the wild sewing machine stabbing from your enemy while you make the great fencing thrust? If you're really quick and good, you just may pull it off. But some parts of you are going to be opened up like a zipper bag. Watch any fencing or Kendo contest and you'll see the really good guys making points by taking out the weapon arm. In the formal martial arts thing it's called de-fanging the snake or some such thing.

Somebody has a knife, you use a stick if you can't have a gun. Heck, hose him down with pepper spray like a big cockroach. If he is one of those mythical bad guys who can 'fight throughout it', he'll still be choking and gagging, having to blink his eyes a hundred times a minute, so it will make it a lot harder for him to focus on you while you retreat ay high speed.

Stab in the eye?

Weird post for the THR.

Carl

 

[JShirley]

By definition, if you are in the process of defending against a violent attack, you are not "in/at peace" at that time.

Who said I am not determined? Did I say that? I don't think I did

Nope. You said "the last thing I want is someone's life on my conscience". I can think of lots worse, as I pointed out. Incidentally, I'm talking about a genuine threat for deployed service members and civilians, male or female.

 

[JVoutilainen]

JShirley,

Exactly. I don't want that on my conscience. There is a world of difference between that, and submitting to an attack, or letting someone be attacked.

I can think of many gruesome things, as well. But, let's face it, Finland is not a war zone *knocks on wood again*, like Afghanistan. When I face a "threat" here, even a serious one, it is a bit different. I hope you can acknowledge that.

Luckily I don't have to worry about anyone running at me with a bomb. On the other hand, I do have to worry about addicts, drunken fools, ethnic gangs etc. And these days I can deal with pretty much everything simply by talking my way out of the situation.

One more thing about the knife as a weapon. There is a group in my country who typically carry a knife, and they also practice knife fighting (and I mean seriously). That would be the Roma, or the gypsies. You can recognise one that you don't want to knife fight by the scars in his forearms - often proudly displayed. You see they cut themselves, and leave the wounds open to form a protective layer of scar tissue. A good thing to know, if you run into one, get into trouble (fairly easy) and decide to pull a knife. I would not, because I know I would lose.

 

[JShirley]

In righteous self-defense, my conscience is clear. I know some of the recipients from my fire missions on my last deployment died. It doesn't bother me. A soldier's job may be to kill.

I certainly agree that needless violence should be avoided. There is unfortunately a strong minority of individuals who seem to hold the idea that taking any life, no matter under what circumstances, is going to horrifically scar the psyche of the defender. I disagree. PTSD, for instance, seems to especially affect those who have been greatly in fear for their life. Having taken a life does not seem to automatically inflict psychic scars.

Incidentally, Finland is very far down on the list of countries I would ever choose to invade, were I a rapacious dictator!

John

 

[JVoutilainen]

JShirley,

Again, I am not talking about war.

There is unfortunately a strong minority of individuals who seem to hold the idea that taking any life, no matter under what circumstances, is going to horrifically scar the psyche of the defender.

And for some reason you think I am one those people. Pardon me, but you seem to have lost your objectivity on this one.

EDIT:

Incidentally, Finland is very far down on the list of countries I would ever choose to invade, were I a rapacious dictator!

You must be confusing Finland with Sweden. My late grandfather fought in two wars, and experienced our civil war as a young man. If we are not high on that list.. why is it that 70 years of peace is an exception?

 

[Strykervet]

Aim small hit small, that is what they said in the army. It works in NM shooting, SDM, and sniper school too. I reckon anytime you want to punch a hole in anything you aim small, hit small. Be it a bullet or a blade. And if you carry a knife and plan on using it for defense, what the OP suggested is no different than what I did with a rifle, what my buddy did with a baseball (he'd throw it at a small bucket through a tire) or what the samurai did with their bows and arrows --which was to stand back a few feet and actually shoot their arrows at tiny targets at very close range. Then when they graduated to doing this on horseback, well, you can imagine how cool that looks.

 

[JShirley]

you seem to have lost your objectivity on this one

By responding to what appeared to be a statement that killing someone ("the last thing I want") is the worst thing possible? I made the point it wasn't. That simple. If that's not what you meant, you should have said what you actually meant.

 

[JVoutilainen]

JShirley,

No, I mean exactly what I said. How you decide to interpret that is another thing.

I don't like the direction this discussion is going, so, I'll leave it at that.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The man who practices deliberate aimed stabs thousands upon thousands of times will have a tremendous advantage over someone who does not practice. This is no different than shooting a pistol. If you can hit a 1" black dot or at least come close to hitting it on a swinging archery target you can probably hit an opponent’s front hand or forearm.

Hitting an eye socket is not unrealistic target during a tie up which is about the best way to deal with someone armed with a stick unless of course, you can out run them. You cannot stay out on the end of his swing. You have to be able to use timing to move in between his swings and cram him up otherwise you will get nailed out on the power point.

One of the weaknesses of a heavy stick is that it must be cocked before it can be swung. Most people telegraph this badly by raring back like a baseball batter. If you move in quickly you can jam his swing then. The other weakness to a heavy stick is that like a baseball bat, its inertia makes it “want” to keep going after a miss. This creates another opportunity to rush in and cram. The vast majority of people are untrained and will swing hard but without any thought to follow-through. Also, most untrained people will swing at the head. They get mad at the face. This is where the bad looks, the cussing and spitting comes from. This is a good thing because you can move your head back very fast.

Our standard defense against a bat or club is to drop the hands a little and lean in making the head an inviting target. Verbal abuse and spitting almost guarantees that he will try to knock your head off. As soon as he swings pop your head back and as soon as the weapon passes charge in with before he gets the stick back under control for another swing. One of the EASIEST weapons to defend against is a big heavy softball bat because it does take so long to recover into another swing.
What if your attacker has something light and whippy like a car antenna that can change direction with just a flick of the wrist? You just have to cover up and take a stripe on the way in. It might sting but it will not stop you.

 

[Vonderek]

I stabbed my thumb the other day which is smaller than my eye so I must be doing pretty good. Sorry, just a little levity.

Not to derail the point of the thread but a question about stabbing vs. slashing (and I have no knife training so I am not making a point but asking to be educated): In a self-defense situation would slashes generally be a faster fight stopper than stabs? I have never been stabbed but have heard of people after violent confrontations not realizing they had been stabbed...some have thought they had been punched and didn't realize they had been stabbed until seeing the blood. Would a slash have more impact, both physically and psychologically, on an adversary?

I suppose a stab in the eye however would get someone's attention.

 

[glistam]

hso wrote: Also, anyone that has fenced remembers practicing thrusts over and over and over again at small targets. Doing such practice with a shorter blade isn't any different.

I was about to bring this up. I felt Owen was on to something because I am a fencer (both in the Olympic style and Historical) and we do very similar drills with a wall target, and it is much harder than you'd think.

I was just recently introducing a new guy (he's 15) to our target, and he missed the 4 inch circle 3 times, right after giving me a hard time about how easy this "useless drill" was going to be. And that was at "narrow measure" (close enough to hit with just arm movement).

When you're using a knife, it pays to hit what matters. I've read a few knife homicides from court records, and the difference is dramatic. There's those cases where the guy get's stabbed 20 times and walks to the ER before dying an hour later. And there's ones where a blades goes straight into the heart or external iliac artery, and the vic is dead before their body hits the ground.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Without getting too gruesome, the bone in the back of the eye socket is very thin and allows easy access to the brain with a forceful stab. If you jam a three or four inch pocket folder up to the hilt and wallow it back and forth it will scramble the frontal lobe. I bring this up only because we need to be aware that there are psychopaths out there who know about these things.

Hitting a small target with a long fencing foil is a whole lot harder than with a 4" knife, I tried fencing a while back and thoroughly embarrassed myself with a variation of this drill.