Who cares about MOA when it comes to a fighting rifle? Can you make center of mass hits on a man sized target at normal ranges? Say out to 300y.
Just how fragile is an AR rifle?
- Thread starter TheProf
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Show me a car owners manual that says to run your car without fresh oil & grease.
If two metal parts rub together, they need lubrication.
Nobody ever said you could have too much.
But everybody says you can have too little.
Too much in an AR is when it splatters out and covers your MK1 eyeballs while shooting it.
rc
If two metal parts rub together, they need lubrication.
Nobody ever said you could have too much.
But everybody says you can have too little.
Too much in an AR is when it splatters out and covers your MK1 eyeballs while shooting it.
rc
A lot of manuals do in fact say over lubrication will cause problems.
HisStigness
Member
My FNS does warn about this, but as has been said, I listen to the gun not the manual. I use a generous amount of mid weight gun oil on all my guns. Haven't had a problem, never will.
Colt has made a few rifles. I do not have a talking rifle
so I go by what the manuals say. Not just Colt, they all say pretty much the same.
Page 56
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/colt_ar15.pdf
Page 31
http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/pdfs/RRA_LAR15opman.pdf
so I go by what the manuals say. Not just Colt, they all say pretty much the same.Page 56
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/colt_ar15.pdf
Page 31
http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/pdfs/RRA_LAR15opman.pdf
Zerodefect
member
If you don't put enough lube on your AR at Pat Rodger's class you'll be wearing one of these patches the rest of your shooting career:
Allthough it's normally reserved for chumps who haven't learned to speed reload yet, I'm sure it'll also apply well to people that can't figure out how to brush lube onto the shiney spots of a carrier. LOLz.
Allthough it's normally reserved for chumps who haven't learned to speed reload yet, I'm sure it'll also apply well to people that can't figure out how to brush lube onto the shiney spots of a carrier. LOLz.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I have to wonder how many of their 20 something media grad kids who write the manuals have been shooting them since 1967 though?
They told us back then you didn't even need to clean them in a tropical jungle.
rc
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
The AR should be run with lots of lube. Running it dry or with little lube causes more problems than it solves. I've had three classes where we've done 750+ rounds in a day and I've got several suppressed ARs. What rcmodel said is dead on, you can lube an AR until it is flinging oil on your eye protection with every shot and it will do just fine - though I prefer to stop short of that point myself
The military has done extensive dust testing on the AR now - to include fine dust that completely covered the rifle. What they discovered (the THR archives have links to the actual tests) is that while more lube does attract more dirt and grime, it also allows the dirt and grime to migrate away from critical operating areas by keeping it suspended - somuch so that a wet rifle in dust storm conditions always runs better than a dry rifle - even when you use really mediocre non-gun lubrication (Pat Rogers likes to use Vagisil to demonstrate this concept in his classes).
The second thing lots of lube does is make cleanup faster by preventing carbon from baking on into rock hard accumulations. If you keep the rifle wet, you can clean it by wiping it down with a tshirt and reapplying oil. If you let it get dry, cleaning is going to bemore work.
I keep a shooting log on my ARs and I can tell you first hand that the day I gave up on worrying about lube attracting dust is the day my stoppages went from rare to almost non-existent (the other big thing was ditching a bunch of old mags in 2004).
The military has done extensive dust testing on the AR now - to include fine dust that completely covered the rifle. What they discovered (the THR archives have links to the actual tests) is that while more lube does attract more dirt and grime, it also allows the dirt and grime to migrate away from critical operating areas by keeping it suspended - somuch so that a wet rifle in dust storm conditions always runs better than a dry rifle - even when you use really mediocre non-gun lubrication (Pat Rogers likes to use Vagisil to demonstrate this concept in his classes).
The second thing lots of lube does is make cleanup faster by preventing carbon from baking on into rock hard accumulations. If you keep the rifle wet, you can clean it by wiping it down with a tshirt and reapplying oil. If you let it get dry, cleaning is going to bemore work.
I keep a shooting log on my ARs and I can tell you first hand that the day I gave up on worrying about lube attracting dust is the day my stoppages went from rare to almost non-existent (the other big thing was ditching a bunch of old mags in 2004).
kBob
Member
Doing the military crack open the barrel by pulling back the charging handle slightly is important, no mater what happened a few times on video.
The .223/5.56 barrel is of such small diameter that water will not drain from a closed action with a round in it. A barrel with water in it can certainly be bulged. Repeated bulges can cause the failure of a barrel.
The Army actually issued as a dissposible item a plastic cap that covered the flash hider to keep out rain and water.
The ones I used were either red or black. We were told to remove them before shooting and perform the water draining drill before firing anyway, but one was supposed to be able to shoot through the cap as well. Theorizing this would lead to horrible accuracy we shot through a few at popup kneeling man (type E) targets at 100 meters. No idea about group sizes but it was appearently minute of man at 100 meters. These things also got shot off rifles with blanks and no BFA for sheer meanness as they could cause a nasty bruise at close range and were fun to watch going away when they started tumbling.
-kBob
The .223/5.56 barrel is of such small diameter that water will not drain from a closed action with a round in it. A barrel with water in it can certainly be bulged. Repeated bulges can cause the failure of a barrel.
The Army actually issued as a dissposible item a plastic cap that covered the flash hider to keep out rain and water.
The ones I used were either red or black. We were told to remove them before shooting and perform the water draining drill before firing anyway, but one was supposed to be able to shoot through the cap as well. Theorizing this would lead to horrible accuracy we shot through a few at popup kneeling man (type E) targets at 100 meters. No idea about group sizes but it was appearently minute of man at 100 meters. These things also got shot off rifles with blanks and no BFA for sheer meanness as they could cause a nasty bruise at close range and were fun to watch going away when they started tumbling.
-kBob
This is standard practice on the qualifying range, and especially in training using blanks. If you have served you have experienced the blast of oil hitting you in the face until it dries up a bit.
The TM calls for the upper channel to be "heavily" lubricated. Just slopping oil everywhere doesn't really help much, putting it in the cam pin track is where it specifically is required.
The M16 wasn't a fragile little poodleshooter in the day, there were some initial fielding problems due to a huge increase in production. The earlier models did NOT have problems before 1968 when DOD required Colt to quadruple production.
Was the M16 touted as not needing any cleaning? Yes, in error, by people who didn't know better. It does need a lot less than the M14/M1, tho, which required grease in the operating rod connection to the bolt, and required mandatory disassembly of the gas piston before it became clogged with gas residue requiring an armorer to do the job. User disassembly at that point was likely to create more damage.
The AR was made to do everything the Infantryman did with the M14 - bayonet drills, lift a fully loaded out teammate standing on it to enter a high window, and break his fall doing a three second rush. They were given chrome bores specifically to reduce erosion at the throat, but it does help with wet weather use.
Ruger calling out a wet barrel as a hazard is Ruger telling the average uninformed consumer what he needs to know about a firearm, be happy it wasn't rollmarked on the barrel in 1/4" script like most of their other guns. They tend to over do it when writing or posting safety notices, mostly because they get sued. In the military the user would be instructed and then he is liable for the abuse, with deductions from his paycheck.
Consumers are mollycoddled quite a bit in comparison, lets not forget McD's has to tell you on the cup your coffee is hot. From this curmudgeon's view, it's justified.
kBob
Member
Trirod,
My XM-16 E1 was a piece of crap. Later M-16A1s issued brand new were better but not that much.
The poodle shooter was fragile as well. Those three second rushes? the troops had to be taught to move their shooting hand from the place they held it at port arms down to the top of the butt plate to prevent breaking the recoil spring tube. One more thing to think about when thinking could get int the way. I actually saw a rifle broken in two like that and had rifles with cracked tubes (right at the screw threads were it went into the lower receiver) that would soon have broken completely through. As the butt is held on by the screw with drain hole through the top of the buttplate and into the recoil spring tube when the tube broke the stock and tube and spring and you name it fell out of the rifle, also the spring plunger retaining the rear take down pin.
Bayonet drill? The bayonets were not secure on the rifle if one gave any twisting motion with the rifle while the bayonet was in a target and they would frequently be dismounted from the rifle and left in the target. The hand guards shattered into sharp shards when used in the Parry or block and those shards could and did cut the users. After using an M-16A1 on a bayonet assault course sometimes the front sights were noticeably off to one side or another and the A1 barrels occasionally bent in that use.
I have seen rifles visibly bent from uses like making a step for squad wall crossing.
I also trained with the M1 and M-14 and there is no way I would believe the A1 was anywhere near as robust as those rifles. A2s are better but once you get a bad taste in your mouth........
Gas cylinder issues? The M-1 and M-14 gas systems are user maintenance items, check the TMs or for the M-1 even the FM DCM sends with their rifles.
I would rather maintain an M-1 or M-14 than an AR15 based on repeated personal experience.
On the other hand as M-16A1s wee getting long in the tooth they diret gas impengment system that had only a few userer serviceable areas became a problem. Crud would build up in the tube itself and no amount of scouring the outside of the tube where it sticks through the upper receiver or shoving pipe cleaners up the tube would prevent the tubes from getting restricted. Much of this may have been because of the use of blanks and blank firing devices......but that is something a service rifle should have no trouble with. Cleaning the inside of the gas tube on top of the bolt carrier did nothing at all for the front unreachable half of the gas tube. Eventually rifles would have failure to fires caused by the bolts not going back far enough to strip n new round from a magazine. There was no official unit level fix for such guns. Enter brute force and ignorance though. Some guys tried to use the large pipe cleaners to reach inside the gas tube from the upper receiver end. While this could help clean the lower half of the tube, it also pushed much of the crud in the lower part of the tube up into a dam at the mid point resulting in more failures until the wad of crud was blown away......unless the crud entered the bolt carrier group and fouled the movement of the bolt. Also some guys managed to break off part of the pie cleaner in their gas tube and that was all she wrote. Fortunately one could straighten out the spiral bound notebooks wire and straighten it just enough to fit into the gas tube and run it all the way out to the gas block and twisting this while pulling it out pulled a could bit of the limestone looking residue from the rifle. This was repeated until nothing else fell out the back of the tube or stuck to the end of the wire. this actually worked well even if it was technically a big Article 15 worthy No-No. Eventually unit armorers were allowed replacement tubes and retainer pins and if they did things right the rifles got a new lease on life.
Oh and those buildups on M-14 and M-1 gas systems caused by user failure to do proper maintenance and Armorers failing to do proper inspections? Usually could be taken care of with the Green Issue 3M scouring pad.
Not going to convince this old user of M-1, M-14 and M-16series rifles that the M-16 was not the most fragile of the bunch.
-kBob
My XM-16 E1 was a piece of crap. Later M-16A1s issued brand new were better but not that much.
The poodle shooter was fragile as well. Those three second rushes? the troops had to be taught to move their shooting hand from the place they held it at port arms down to the top of the butt plate to prevent breaking the recoil spring tube. One more thing to think about when thinking could get int the way. I actually saw a rifle broken in two like that and had rifles with cracked tubes (right at the screw threads were it went into the lower receiver) that would soon have broken completely through. As the butt is held on by the screw with drain hole through the top of the buttplate and into the recoil spring tube when the tube broke the stock and tube and spring and you name it fell out of the rifle, also the spring plunger retaining the rear take down pin.
Bayonet drill? The bayonets were not secure on the rifle if one gave any twisting motion with the rifle while the bayonet was in a target and they would frequently be dismounted from the rifle and left in the target. The hand guards shattered into sharp shards when used in the Parry or block and those shards could and did cut the users. After using an M-16A1 on a bayonet assault course sometimes the front sights were noticeably off to one side or another and the A1 barrels occasionally bent in that use.
I have seen rifles visibly bent from uses like making a step for squad wall crossing.
I also trained with the M1 and M-14 and there is no way I would believe the A1 was anywhere near as robust as those rifles. A2s are better but once you get a bad taste in your mouth........
Gas cylinder issues? The M-1 and M-14 gas systems are user maintenance items, check the TMs or for the M-1 even the FM DCM sends with their rifles.
I would rather maintain an M-1 or M-14 than an AR15 based on repeated personal experience.
On the other hand as M-16A1s wee getting long in the tooth they diret gas impengment system that had only a few userer serviceable areas became a problem. Crud would build up in the tube itself and no amount of scouring the outside of the tube where it sticks through the upper receiver or shoving pipe cleaners up the tube would prevent the tubes from getting restricted. Much of this may have been because of the use of blanks and blank firing devices......but that is something a service rifle should have no trouble with. Cleaning the inside of the gas tube on top of the bolt carrier did nothing at all for the front unreachable half of the gas tube. Eventually rifles would have failure to fires caused by the bolts not going back far enough to strip n new round from a magazine. There was no official unit level fix for such guns. Enter brute force and ignorance though. Some guys tried to use the large pipe cleaners to reach inside the gas tube from the upper receiver end. While this could help clean the lower half of the tube, it also pushed much of the crud in the lower part of the tube up into a dam at the mid point resulting in more failures until the wad of crud was blown away......unless the crud entered the bolt carrier group and fouled the movement of the bolt. Also some guys managed to break off part of the pie cleaner in their gas tube and that was all she wrote. Fortunately one could straighten out the spiral bound notebooks wire and straighten it just enough to fit into the gas tube and run it all the way out to the gas block and twisting this while pulling it out pulled a could bit of the limestone looking residue from the rifle. This was repeated until nothing else fell out the back of the tube or stuck to the end of the wire. this actually worked well even if it was technically a big Article 15 worthy No-No. Eventually unit armorers were allowed replacement tubes and retainer pins and if they did things right the rifles got a new lease on life.
Oh and those buildups on M-14 and M-1 gas systems caused by user failure to do proper maintenance and Armorers failing to do proper inspections? Usually could be taken care of with the Green Issue 3M scouring pad.
Not going to convince this old user of M-1, M-14 and M-16series rifles that the M-16 was not the most fragile of the bunch.
-kBob
My AR has about 2000 rds through it now, no cleaning yet. I went through a 2 day 800-900 rd carbine course with it. Just lubed it well in the morning and it ran all day.
Compared to an AK the design has 2 weaker(er) places. The aluminum magazine that only locks up in one place and the receiver extension which can be bent making the rifle inop.
That said, in 20+ years in the Army, mostly infantry, I haven't personally seen an M16/M4 fail due to a broken/bent RE or a magazine get jacked up from hitting the ground. We beat on them pretty hard in the field and on bayonet assault courses, butt-stroking the crap out of wood and tire dummies.
Compared to an AK the design has 2 weaker(er) places. The aluminum magazine that only locks up in one place and the receiver extension which can be bent making the rifle inop.
That said, in 20+ years in the Army, mostly infantry, I haven't personally seen an M16/M4 fail due to a broken/bent RE or a magazine get jacked up from hitting the ground. We beat on them pretty hard in the field and on bayonet assault courses, butt-stroking the crap out of wood and tire dummies.
Read any make, mode, brand, manual you want and see what it says about lube. The guns are not the same as those in Nam
Most are not full auto shooting thousands of rounds in a session.
Lube how ever you see fit or when your rifle cries "help me help me"
Here these guys clear it all up!
http://blog.redstatetactical.com/external-videos/the-myth-of-over-lubrication/
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C-grunt
Member
C-grunt
Member
I carried a M16 DMR for a year in combat and never found the weapon to be fragile. It took multiple IED blasts, one REALLY close mortar round, a few falls over walls, a fall down a 20 foot embankment into a feeder river of the Tigris, and riding around in the back of Humvees and Bradleys. Its still shot fine and was able to put rounds on target out to 800 meters.
Also one of the squad leaders buttstroked a dude with his M4 and the only thing that broke was the guys face.
Also one of the squad leaders buttstroked a dude with his M4 and the only thing that broke was the guys face.
Read any make, mode, brand, manual you want and see what it says about lube. The guns are not the same as those in Nam
Most are not full auto shooting thousands of rounds in a session.
Lube how ever you see fit or when your rifle cries "help me help me"
Here these guys clear it all up!
http://blog.redstatetactical.com/external-videos/the-myth-of-over-lubrication/
I bet the guns are pretty darned similiar.
I've read somewhere that the fallacy of the M16 not needing to be maintained was Duponts fault as they claimed their new powder burned clean.
kBob
Member
What I saw happen to M-16A1s before 1976 I saw and the ones I handled that were already damaged I did handle, examine and frequently repaired.
In 1973 at Ft. Polk and at Ft. Knox, the bayonet assault courses were shut down specifically because the A1s were having trouble surviving the courses. The were still shut down and in poor repair when I was at Knox in 1976.
The A2 has some improvements, not the least of which is a heavier and more ridged barrel.....just as I suggested during the troop interviews in 1974 for what should be done to improve the M-16A1. I was not of course even close to the only one to suggest such as those A1 pencil barrels were a source of issues. The NRA did a test using the sling as a support and found that using the sling "properly" could move bullet impact over a foot to the non firing side at 100 yards. For this reason in the mid 1970s the use of the sling on the A1was not taught. It is my personal experience that the A2 can be used with a sling for support with out such a dispersion problem.
I have said before (and rc for one is likely tired of my doing so) tha I believe the source of many of the reliability issues the lubricant in use at the time. The TM called for the use of "LSA" (lubricant, small arms) which was a petroleum product. It was greatly effected by temperature variations. The stuff would evaporate in high temps and heavy use and leave you with a dry gun. In cold temps it would get thick and gooey and actually slow things down.
Further there were discreferencies about how much to use and where. I saw range committee instructors as well as training unit Drill Sargents actually place the nozzle of LSA bottles in one of the vent holes in a bolt carrier and squeeze lube into the area until it oozed out the other hole. I saw them dose the bottom of the carrier through the magazine well and I even saw them pull bolt carrier as and squirt them until LSA dripped off them before shoving them back in. I also saw some NCOs have a hissy fit if one had more than the lightest film of LSA on a bolt carrier.
I Europe my unit used LSA when temps were above freezing and used the Machine guns sections PL-Special (Petroleum Lubricant- Special) a much lighter weight oil when below freezing. This helped, but failures to feed were still not uncommon. The rifles seemed to work best when they had been white gloved and scrapped of fouling from the bolt carrier and bolt (this wsa checked over a white towel) and when it passed these cleaning standards the bolt carrier and internal parts where given a light wipe down with the Lube for that temperature. Still there were issues especially in tempertures between freezing and about 45 F in high humidity when the first shot tended to turn whatever petroleum based lube into grey-black sludge and second round failures sometimes occurred in 1 out of 3 rifles on a range. What ever your experience I watched this happen for three years.
In areas where there was a lot of very fine dust about any lube turned into goo. Graffenhower was a M-16A1 night mare. Guys tried a lot of lube guys tried a little lube. Some guys had success by using a #2 pencil and coating the shiny spots on the bolt carrier, bolt and bolt cam pin with graphite. Sort of a do it your self dry film lubricant. Others used Vasoline in a very thin coat only on the shiny areas (shades of M-1 and M-14 lubing). Both of these methods required redoing every day, but seemed to work in hot dusty Graff of the summer and fall.
When I got commissioned and came back five years later the silicon based lubes were in use. The unit I had the Arms Room as an additional duty along with Supply Officer (both jobs put me in daily contact with the arms room) and I was responsible for Rifle marksmanship of the troops meant I had a good bit of contact with Mr. M-16A1. We had guns form a host of manufacturers from guns likely around ten years earlier to ones still so new they had that fuzzy gray look and no sling keeper dings. there were still second round failures on cold humid days in some.....but not near as many guns. The same thing happened at Graff, failures to feed did not go away, but were greatly reduced (except when that clogged gas tube issue I meantioned earlier reared its ugly head)
Guys I am aware that "modern" ARs are not military M-16A1 rifles and certainly not XM-16E1 rifles. I own and shoot an A2-ish Colt HBAR (has a solid barrel without the M-203 notch the service rifles have. (un fortunately it is from when Colt was trying to appease Bill Clinton and has no bayonet lug despite being "pre-ban" BTW when the AWB was being signed in the rose garden I was standing in Gingritch's office in the capital bitching mightily to Mr.Blaylock and staying in the DC Marriot between the Capital and the White House) I use modern lubes that are not just high flaluting motor oil and do not have very many malfunctions (I did have one in a class with EJ Land and that was embarrassing, we had to leave the rifles in direct sun for a few hours on the firing line to learn what effects that had on accuracy and point of impact and I had gone with very light lube which when heated migrated down into the lower and left me high and dry.)
Nether the less the breakages and failures I saw with M-16A1 rifles were real, and not that uncommon. Those were AR 15 rifles (said so on them) and they were fragile compared to the M-1 and M-14 rifles I had also used and maintained.
for me at least. 'nuff said.
-kBob
In 1973 at Ft. Polk and at Ft. Knox, the bayonet assault courses were shut down specifically because the A1s were having trouble surviving the courses. The were still shut down and in poor repair when I was at Knox in 1976.
The A2 has some improvements, not the least of which is a heavier and more ridged barrel.....just as I suggested during the troop interviews in 1974 for what should be done to improve the M-16A1. I was not of course even close to the only one to suggest such as those A1 pencil barrels were a source of issues. The NRA did a test using the sling as a support and found that using the sling "properly" could move bullet impact over a foot to the non firing side at 100 yards. For this reason in the mid 1970s the use of the sling on the A1was not taught. It is my personal experience that the A2 can be used with a sling for support with out such a dispersion problem.
I have said before (and rc for one is likely tired of my doing so) tha I believe the source of many of the reliability issues the lubricant in use at the time. The TM called for the use of "LSA" (lubricant, small arms) which was a petroleum product. It was greatly effected by temperature variations. The stuff would evaporate in high temps and heavy use and leave you with a dry gun. In cold temps it would get thick and gooey and actually slow things down.
Further there were discreferencies about how much to use and where. I saw range committee instructors as well as training unit Drill Sargents actually place the nozzle of LSA bottles in one of the vent holes in a bolt carrier and squeeze lube into the area until it oozed out the other hole. I saw them dose the bottom of the carrier through the magazine well and I even saw them pull bolt carrier as and squirt them until LSA dripped off them before shoving them back in. I also saw some NCOs have a hissy fit if one had more than the lightest film of LSA on a bolt carrier.
I Europe my unit used LSA when temps were above freezing and used the Machine guns sections PL-Special (Petroleum Lubricant- Special) a much lighter weight oil when below freezing. This helped, but failures to feed were still not uncommon. The rifles seemed to work best when they had been white gloved and scrapped of fouling from the bolt carrier and bolt (this wsa checked over a white towel) and when it passed these cleaning standards the bolt carrier and internal parts where given a light wipe down with the Lube for that temperature. Still there were issues especially in tempertures between freezing and about 45 F in high humidity when the first shot tended to turn whatever petroleum based lube into grey-black sludge and second round failures sometimes occurred in 1 out of 3 rifles on a range. What ever your experience I watched this happen for three years.
In areas where there was a lot of very fine dust about any lube turned into goo. Graffenhower was a M-16A1 night mare. Guys tried a lot of lube guys tried a little lube. Some guys had success by using a #2 pencil and coating the shiny spots on the bolt carrier, bolt and bolt cam pin with graphite. Sort of a do it your self dry film lubricant. Others used Vasoline in a very thin coat only on the shiny areas (shades of M-1 and M-14 lubing). Both of these methods required redoing every day, but seemed to work in hot dusty Graff of the summer and fall.
When I got commissioned and came back five years later the silicon based lubes were in use. The unit I had the Arms Room as an additional duty along with Supply Officer (both jobs put me in daily contact with the arms room) and I was responsible for Rifle marksmanship of the troops meant I had a good bit of contact with Mr. M-16A1. We had guns form a host of manufacturers from guns likely around ten years earlier to ones still so new they had that fuzzy gray look and no sling keeper dings. there were still second round failures on cold humid days in some.....but not near as many guns. The same thing happened at Graff, failures to feed did not go away, but were greatly reduced (except when that clogged gas tube issue I meantioned earlier reared its ugly head)
Guys I am aware that "modern" ARs are not military M-16A1 rifles and certainly not XM-16E1 rifles. I own and shoot an A2-ish Colt HBAR (has a solid barrel without the M-203 notch the service rifles have. (un fortunately it is from when Colt was trying to appease Bill Clinton and has no bayonet lug despite being "pre-ban" BTW when the AWB was being signed in the rose garden I was standing in Gingritch's office in the capital bitching mightily to Mr.Blaylock and staying in the DC Marriot between the Capital and the White House) I use modern lubes that are not just high flaluting motor oil and do not have very many malfunctions (I did have one in a class with EJ Land and that was embarrassing, we had to leave the rifles in direct sun for a few hours on the firing line to learn what effects that had on accuracy and point of impact and I had gone with very light lube which when heated migrated down into the lower and left me high and dry.)
Nether the less the breakages and failures I saw with M-16A1 rifles were real, and not that uncommon. Those were AR 15 rifles (said so on them) and they were fragile compared to the M-1 and M-14 rifles I had also used and maintained.
for me at least. 'nuff said.
-kBob
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fwiw, back in the early 2000s i got a heckuva deal on 'bulk' LSA from somewhere i forget. I used bottles of that stuff copiously for many years and never had problems with my ARs. Switched to slip2k EWL when it came along, and flirted with froglube for a year before going back to slip2k, but to be honest, LSA did everything i ever needed it to.
other than self induced issues screwing with subsonics, adjustable gas blocks etc, I've had very few malfunctions over the years and even fewer failures. the ones i've had came from wearing out springs, extractors and getting a LOT of mud inside the action. and of course, the occasional bad magazine or ammo.
i can't speak personally to rifles made in the 60s and 70s, but the ARs i've had were durable and the only one I ever babied was a registered full auto investment cast lower, for obvious reasons.
other than self induced issues screwing with subsonics, adjustable gas blocks etc, I've had very few malfunctions over the years and even fewer failures. the ones i've had came from wearing out springs, extractors and getting a LOT of mud inside the action. and of course, the occasional bad magazine or ammo.
i can't speak personally to rifles made in the 60s and 70s, but the ARs i've had were durable and the only one I ever babied was a registered full auto investment cast lower, for obvious reasons.
moxie
Member
In Vietnam, Thailand, and Germany in the '70s the Air Force version we used was the plain Jane M16. Not A1. Not A2. Just M16. It had no BFA and was flat sided. "Twig-catcher" flash hider. Skinny barrel. Triangular, flimsy, handguards. We didn't train with bayonets, leaving that to our colleagues in the Army and USMC. But, although the first impression was light and flimsy, they turned out to be very robust. They were very accurate and worked well. We kept them clean and well lubed with whatever was on hand which changed over the years, but I never had any problems with LSA. If they weren't being fired they got cleaned in my outfits, at least cursorily, every 30 days. If fired, then before the sun went down. We started getting those red plastic caps in Germany and everyone liked them.
Basically I'd say the M16 is as fragile as an Anderson baseball bat.
I should add that the Air Force didn't start buying the M16A2 (never getting the M16A1) and associated ammo until FY92, with deliveries later than that. It is a bit stouter and heavier especially in the barrel and handguard areas. The plastic is overall newer and better stuff too. But they didn't start getting issued until well after the Pentagon was in my rear-view mirror.
Basically I'd say the M16 is as fragile as an Anderson baseball bat.
I should add that the Air Force didn't start buying the M16A2 (never getting the M16A1) and associated ammo until FY92, with deliveries later than that. It is a bit stouter and heavier especially in the barrel and handguard areas. The plastic is overall newer and better stuff too. But they didn't start getting issued until well after the Pentagon was in my rear-view mirror.
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Zerodefect
member
"...sands being attracted to it." @ 1:20. Haha. That's hilarious.
Most epic sarcastic comment I've ever head on here.
MIL-DOT
member
I gotta agree. Though they've always felt kinda fragile to me, not nearly as rugged as an AK or a Garand, I don't think I've ever seen one actually "break" in any way, and I recall me and my USMC buds treating our M-16A1's pretty badly. We used to toss them around like ragdolls. Once, (or maybe more than once
) I got pizzed off at something and kicked my rifle down a steep, rocky hillside on Camp Pendleton, but I got lucky that I wasn't seen, and the rifle wasn't at all damaged.Another time, my company was out in the boonies doing some training with a butt-load of blanks, so me a couple buddies burned through several magazines, as fast as we could fire them, on automatic. I looked down at my gas tube, and even though we were standing in bright sunlight, it was glowing like a red neon sign !!
I thought I'd really screwed it up, but it cooled off, and never missed a beat after that.
My personal AR's have been treated considerably better, and have never faltered (fortunately for them, I'm not a stupid 18 year-old anymore !!
)MIL-DOT
member
Nice find, that was hillarious, AND illustrative !! But my favorite quip in it was, "I'm surprised they don't self-destruct right there in the bucket"!!
That one cracked me up!
ARs are very rugged. Just keep the bolt carrier group well lubed and you'll be fine. They're also very easy to clean. Just treat it like any other rifle, shot the heck out of it, and enjoy it.
I stopped reading here because, well, that's it.
-Start with a good rifle
-Use GOOD mags (they're like $8-$10 for crying out loud)
-Use decent ammo (cheap Russian steel case will have some malfunctions here and there)
-LUBE the BCG. It doesn't need to be clean. You can get it dirty. You can get it wet. You can go 500+ rounds without lube, easy, and much more without cleaning if you relube here and there. But lube it and lube it liberally when you do. Don't worry about using too much.
I only have about 3,500 rounds through my current ARs, but in that time I have one malf (FTFeed) which was caused by a known-to-be-questionable magazine. And no other issues of any kind whatsoever.
Dangit I should have stopped reading.
No, it isn't.
Nobody said to put "excessive" amounts. But people will tell you to use a lot. Because it's good to start off with a lot. And not just ARs but many other firearms too. There are FAR more malfunctions and other issues from too little lube than from too much. This is indisputable.
Lube up and be happy.
No, it isn't.
Nobody said to put "excessive" amounts. But people will tell you to use a lot. Because it's good to start off with a lot. And not just ARs but many other firearms too. There are FAR more malfunctions and other issues from too little lube than from too much. This is indisputable.
Lube up and be happy.
"Nobody said to put "excessive" amounts. But people will tell you to use a lot. Because it's good to start off with a lot. And not just ARs but many other firearms"
Absolutely because folks on the internet know more than the manufacturers and engineers that made the fire arms. No one yet has shown us a manual that says use a lot .
My car calls for 4 quarts so I guess 5 will will work better
A correct amount of lube put in the right places will work better that "lots" slathered all over.
But it's a dead horse discussion, as mention lube as you wish.
Absolutely because folks on the internet know more than the manufacturers and engineers that made the fire arms. No one yet has shown us a manual that says use a lot .
My car calls for 4 quarts so I guess 5 will will work better
A correct amount of lube put in the right places will work better that "lots" slathered all over.
But it's a dead horse discussion, as mention lube as you wish.
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