Just thought of a "new" "Anti Rebuttal."

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bogie

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After they get through telling you all about the utopian society without guns that they hope to achieve, tell them that this is already the case at more than a few places in the United States.

They'll expect you to mention Chicago or New York or DC.

Nope.

Every jail and prison is a Gun Free Zone.

Sure hasn't worked to eliminate violence, has it?

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Well, just got PM'ed that someone else had already thought of it.

Won't stop me from using it tho... It's FUN to watch their heads go into logic loops...
 
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Every jail and prison is a Gun Free Zone.

Sure hasn't worked to eliminate violence, has it?

some one summed it up best

if complete government monopoly on force = security & safety, then prisons are a safe place or something along those lines
 
Prisons are full of people who are not in touch with our society. Of course prisons are going to be dangerous.

Besides, the smarter antis say that regular people shouldn't have guns because it will decreae the average joe crimes.

Face it, if a criminal wants a gun they will find them, but I wonder how many of the crimes committed with firearms are just your average citizen who wouldn't have a gun if they were illegal and thus reduce the amount of crimes committed with firearms. The crimes I speak of are generally domestic dispute type crimes.
 
Prisons are full of people who are not in touch with our society.

No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. Prisons are just chock full of innocent people. Ask any one of 'em. :rolleyes:

They're all in there because the judge didn't like 'em, they wuz framed, or their momma didn't treat 'em right.
 
Every jail and prison is a Gun Free Zone.

I am not sure that resorting to the same sort of poor, twisted reasoning is a good way to make a point. Of course there is violence in our jails and prisons. That is why many of the patrons are there.

HOWEVER, if you want to use jails and prisons as a good example of how the authorities, who are on scene and often in positions to be witnesses and first responders, cannot be part of the immediate situation fast enough to prevent violence and in many cases to not even be able to save lives after the violence, then you might have something.
 
Good point Double Naught Spy. Prisoners have very few freedoms. Prisons are a completly controlled enviroment and the guards still can't prevent murder, riots, etc from occuring.
 
You paint yourself into a corner with that cute quip.
The response will be, "So do you think arming the inmates will help or hinder the violence?"

I'm pro-RKBA, but using a poor argument for a good cause is never advisable.
 
Prisons are just chock full of innocent people. Ask any one of 'em.

I taught in a federal prison for a year. None of my students blamed either the police or the jury. Only two said they were not guilty -- and they admitted that as the evidence was presented, they would have voted "guilty" if they had been on their own jury.
 
Actually,there once was a Gun Free Utopia.

We call it "The Dark Ages."

It was the age of clubs and knives. Weapons which give the advantage to muscular young men.

The kind of weapons that most women and elderly people cannot use to advantage.

The kind of world dominated by roving gangs of young thugs and hoodlums.

The kind of world England seems to be reverting to.

Gun Free Zones.
 
The response will be, "So do you think arming the inmates will help or hinder the violence?"

nope, i think arming the inmates... and moving the guards to the outside of the walls... will make the cost of prisons decrease dramatically... and the prison population will get really small, really quickly...
 
Actually,there once was a Gun Free Utopia.

We call it "The Dark Ages."

It was the age of clubs and knives. Weapons which give the advantage to muscular young men.

The kind of weapons that most women and elderly people cannot use to advantage.

The kind of world dominated by roving gangs of young thugs and hoodlums.

The kind of world England seems to be reverting to.

Gun Free Zones.

ThreeBand - You have nailed it. The basic reason for RKBA...

(drumroll please - a new ROTR quote):

Without guns, we all must choose to join the ranks of victimhood or gang.

-ReadyontheRight on www.TheHighRoad.org 2008-;)

Excess verbage toned down to a haiku - change wording as you like and spread the word.
 
Bogie -- Excellent point. A similar point HAS been made before in some great quotes, but I appreciate you bringing it up for discussion.

The argument is NOT that we should arm the inmates. (Where did THAT Logical Broad Jump come from???).:confused:

We already KNOW that the inmates are dangerous. NO GUNS FOR YOU!!!

The argument is that controlling weapons in the supremely controllable environment of a prison yard populated by identified "bad guys" in matching shirts does not work. Even arming and training all the guards with the latest weapons to keep violence within the walls does not always work.

Expand the logic of enforcing weapons control from the prison yard to an entire country with borders, coasts, existing weapons, engineers, scientists, entrepreneurs, freedom-lovers, airspace, black markets, politics, greed, private parties and human motivation. The real world.

Throw in the fact that guns are basically a bolted-together hunk of easy-to-get metal pipes...basic chemicals...and soft metal projectiles.

The entire idea of controlling the violence of criminals with gun laws is just plain stupid.

Furthermore...today in the USA, we KNOW that people proven to be dangerous by a court of law are living outside prison walls. Roaming our streets. It's part of our society to let them live among us.

And not just "roaming" our streets...

They are legally DRIVING our streets, across our country at will in 2000+ vehicles controlled by only their hand, foot and brain.

They have access to our most intimate personal details via the internet.

They are entertained by interactive images of violence.

...Talk about something the Founding Fathers could not foresee.

Back to the anti-gun rebuttal: Guns in the hands of the law-abiding should be the least of a thinking person's worries.
 
The argument is NOT that we should arm the inmates. (Where did THAT Logical Broad Jump come from???).

If someone is going to throw out an apples and oranges comparison, expect that. Claiming "the prison system is an example of how gun control doesn't reduce crime in the real world" requires a flawed premise.

Given (1) we claim less violent crime as a benefit of an armed citizenry and (2) we don't support gun rights for criminals. Then, when someone submits prisons as an example system where total gun control does not remove violence, expect a debate opponent to drag out your 'less crime solution' (Point 1) and ask why it shouldn't apply to prisons? Of course they are ignoring Point 2 and they should. You have already disavowed P2 by implying a social system comprised of convicts relates to normal society - ignoring the criminal 'special case'. You cut your own feet out from under you by doing so. Now you are in the awkward position of having to argue against gun control in prisons.

There are plenty of great arguments for RKBA, so why use one so weak that it is easily twisted to make the user appear radical and unbalanced - ignorant even.
 
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Implying the prison system is an example of how gun control doesn't reduce crime in the real world is a flawed premise.

I think it's a valid example used in such a way as to point out that the flawed premise is really what the anti's tout as the simple solution -- more control equals less guns for criminals. By saying that even in such a highly regulated and controlled environment, weapons are still to be had, or made, or any drug of choice can be cheaply paid for, helps to illustrate that violence in our society is a far deeper and more complex issue than writing more laws or trying to take away all the guns will solve.
 
As an example of gun control failure, Exhibit Prison still fails. Nobody believes 100% gun control compliance is the measure of success. Saying "prisons still get weapons and guns in prison, so gun control is teh failed" makes us look silly. It. Would. Be. Worse. if Bud's Guns could legally ship direct to Cell Block B.
In short, we have to make a distinction between "us" and "them" and to use "them" as an example of "us" is really really "bad."
(see previous comment)
 
but I wonder how many of the crimes committed with firearms are just your average citizen who wouldn't have a gun if they were illegal and thus reduce the amount of crimes committed with firearms. The crimes I speak of are generally domestic dispute type crimes.
Well, your righ. If all guns were illegal, criminals would stiil have guns, but most "regular" (people who dont rob, steal, rape, etc) would not have them then, as they are the type who will obey the law, just becasue its the law. And thus, domestic violence with firearms would go down like you say, since a "regular" person, with no gun, who decides to hurt/kill his wife in the heat of passion cant use a firearm to do it. However, the rate of DM with anything other than a firearm would likely go up, since those who would have used a firearm in the heat of passion cant, but the desire to hurt didnt go away, so they'll just beat, kick, stab, etc. In the heat of passion in a DM situation, the person who "snaps" as it were will use whatever is available. if guns arent available, they'll just use something else. So, DM wont go down, just DM with firearms.

As the saying goes, dead is dead, whether you were shot, stabbed, stomped, checked, poisoned, etc. the tool used to kill means nothing. with less people having guns, the killing will just switch to other tools, as is seen in countires where firearms are much more heavily restricted. They tend to have higher rates of baseball bat, knife, choking, etc attacks, plus, with only BG's armed, they will likely victimize and/or kill more people than before, since they know they have a gun, and you dont, or at least, they'll get away with it more, since no one can hold them at gunpoint to get arrested, or shoot them, both of which cut short thier life of violent crime.
 
i still say, pull all of the guards out of the prisons, toss in a few crates of cheap Hi-points... and come back with a mop...
 
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