Just want to hear your opinion

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The opponents of the current policy use the a "lie told often..... " very effectively. The chorus of "what about the immenent threat that Saddam was supposed to have posed" is a case in point. The President said just the opposite, he said waiting for the immenent threat to develope is waiting until it's too late.

The whole WMD argument was specifically for the UN, they thought that was the one point EVERYONE could agree on. Iraq never even complied with the cease fire agreement, the war never really ended. They never showed they disarmed. This was there responsibility to show. Not ours to prove one way or another.

There was a whole list of justifications for going to war that the President gave for taking out Saddam. Not the least of which was Saddam was our sworn enemy, who refused to comply with UN resolutions proving he had disposed of all his WMD's.
 
Are you so blinded by idealism or hatred of President Bush that you don't see the strategic benifit of being in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I, for one, do not hate President Bush.

Strategically, it was a brilliant move. Not to rid Iraq of WMD's though (since there were none), but perhaps to get more oil flowing, intimidate Iran, Syria, Lybia, etc. and show the world who's boss. That intimidation will only last for so long though and makes no "true" friends or allies. Then what?

However, if I recall correctly, the alleged terrorists responsible for 3,000 Americans murdered were primarily from Saudi Arabia. So, what is to stop more Saudis from doing it again, other than tighter border security and not allowing box-cutters on planes? If we had "control" over Iraq before September 11, 2001, do you think the attack would not have happened? Let's be realistic. Tracking down and killing terrorists is like turning on the light and trying to stomp as many cockroaches as you can before they scurry into the cracks and crevices.

Now, what other countries could we invade and occupy so as to obtain a strategic advantage? Hmmm. I'm sure there is a really nice list by now.
 
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The whole strategy is based on a big "if". If Iraq can be transformed into a relatively free and prosperous country, they will do more to destabilize the oppressive regimes than any direct action from us. Hopefully success will breed more successes.

More on topic, this war in Iraq isn't something President Bush just cooked up himself. Regime change was our policy even before he took office. It just was accelerated after 9/11. We had/have to show the nations of the world the consequences of supporting and harbering terrorists.

Didn't mean to use inflammatory language (Bush haters). The discussion here has been very civil.
 
its not that france and germany dont trust us anymore

they know just as well as all the Democrats who supported Clinton when he rocketed Iraq and supported Bush before the war that Hussein was a madman who killed his own people with chemical weapons.....

they knew Hussein was crazy
they knew he would have done anything he could to $%^& the US
these things they did not deny
they simply dont care.

thank God there are countries like Britain, Poland, and Bulgaria that do care
 
C'mon, Bountyhunter

You don't hate Bush, but he's "an arrogant Texan with a chip on his shoulder who lies at his convenience and won't admit when he's lying."

PLUS you can read his mind: none of the reasons for war were given sincerely; we went to war "because he wanted to."

With your clairvoyance, you could make a killing in the stock market.
 
You don't hate Bush, but he's "an arrogant Texan with a chip on his shoulder who lies at his convenience and won't admit when he's lying."

I notice you didn't disagree.

FWIW, that same description applies to about half my in laws (if you add drunk to the description) and I don't hate them either. But, I sure as hell don't invite them over much.
 
However, if I recall correctly, the alleged terrorists responsible for 3,000 Americans murdered were primarily from Saudi Arabia. So, what is to stop more Saudis from doing it again, other than tighter border security and not allowing box-cutters on planes?

Correct. 15 of 18 of the hijackers were Saudis. Osama Bin laden is also a Saudi, although they officially revoked his citizenship when he tried to overthrow their government. Most of Al qaeda are also Saudis who fought with OBL in Afghanistan against the Soviets. OBL's heroic exploits are in dispute, but they follow him like the Hero of Islam anyway... and it's the propoganda that matters these days.

What is to stop it from happening again? Right now, just our security measures. Al Qaeda cells are in place with their marching orders. They will strike if our guard drops for a second. Some of them were thwarted recently when flights were cancelled, although we can't prove it because the suspicious "late boarders" that flagged the flight took off and were not captured. I believe we caught them in time.

If we had "control" over Iraq before September 11, 2001, do you think the attack would not have happened? Let's be realistic.

Since Iraq and Al Qaeda have never been connected except for a mutual loathing between OBL and Hussein, it would have made no difference.
 
Pre 9\11 the Saudis were the only game in town when it came to staging areas for US forces. Now we have other options. They are a divided nation themselves, the royal family is filled with divisions. They have been put on notice that they are not immune from the consequences of being supporters of terrorism. Our allies in the Saudi royal family are hunting down bad guys (al qaeda) because they are a common enemy. We moved out of there to take some of the heat off of our Saudi allies. But we haven't gone too far.... our Saudi enemies best beware. We are not dicking around anymore. You better believe our enemies are praying to Allah for another Democratic administration.
 
I like Bush a lot. I'm glad he's our president. I hope he will be more conservative in his next four years, but he's the best option on the table. He's not as close to Reagan as I had hoped he would be, though.
 
...the Saudis ... are a divided nation themselves, the royal family is filled with divisions. .

That is true and it applies to nearly every country in the region. They all have significant (like 40%) segments in their populations which support Islamic fundamentalism. That is why the Saudis did what they did, ie allow Al Qaeda supporters to pump money into that organization.

When Bin laden came back a "hero of Islam" from the war in Afghanistan, the first thing he did was rally the support of the Islamic core in SA. His plan was simple and he stated it publicly: topple the government in SA, establish a power base, then export it to the rest of the middle east by destabilizing their governments and arming the FI (fundamental islamic) segments within the countries. It would be accomplished by starting a civil war, then overthrowing the government. If it sounds familiar, it is the scenario that now faces us in Iraq.

The point is with SA, their government chose to be cowards. When OBL tried to take down the government, they just kicked him out of the country. They should have locked him up forever, but they feared it would lead to civil war. What's worse, when he established Al qaeda as an operational terror force and began striking targets, the SA government made a deal with the devil to turn a blind eye to the people within their own country paying for it. In return, Al Qaeda did not strike SA targets unless they were purely US targets. The problem is that:

...the royal family is filled with divisions. They have been put on notice that they are not immune from the consequences of being supporters of terrorism. .

Is 100% false. In fact, the Saudis have been clearly told they can literally get away with murder as long as Bush is around to cover up what they are doing. Our intel tracked the money to Al qaeda back to the source a long time ago, we knew it was the Saudi's. Bush has never done jack about it. In fact, a report on terrorism which had about 33 pages worth of that proof was censored to remove it. A patriot on the inside leaked a summary of the contents, which is how it was found out. It was reported and the saudi Ambassador was in Washington the next day demanding an apology. The message was: "Plug the leak, George."

The Kobar Towers attack in SA against US citizens was clearly the work of Al Qaeda. The saudi's restricted the FBI, stonewalled the investigation, and then declared it was over after they tortured confessions out of a few locals. The FBI were never granted access to them and the FBI classifies that investigation as "OPEN" to this day because it was so obviously corrupt.

The message GWB has sent the Saudi's is: "I am so scred of losing your oil that we will let you get away with anything, and cover up your crimes." That is the prime reason I will vote ABB (anybody but Bush).

Our allies in the Saudi royal family are hunting down bad guys (al qaeda) because they are a common enemy. .

The saudi govt is doing what the governments of South America do when they help us fight the "war on drugs": offer up a few low-level players for publicity while the main rats are still running free. The royal family is certainly not pursuing the people who fund Al qaeda because they are them, as well as many other extremely wealthy and influential Saudis.

It's true some people will be caught and executed for "crimes", but after the Kobar Towers show, I am not at all convinced any of them will be Al Qaeda... and certainly not any actual major players. Those will be protected for the simple rason that the saudi government is afraid of civil war.

But we haven't gone too far.... our Saudi enemies best beware. .

We haven't actually gone anywhere as far as laying down the law to the saudi government.

We are not dicking around anymore. You better believe our enemies are praying to Allah for another Democratic administration.

Actually, we are dicking around as far as rooting out the source of Al Qaeda's life blood. It's alive and well and gushing out of SA. GWB will do nothing to interfere with the saudi government and their cowardly actions. As to whether a Democrat ould have the cajones to take a hard line stance against them? probably not.
 
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