Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program

[publius]

Gunwalking: A Perfect Storm Of Idiocy

In advance of a hearing later today, the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform released a report containing new testimony and allegations in the ATF gunwalker case. According to the report, Carlos Canino, Acting ATF Attache in Mexico, calls the strategy his agency employed: "The perfect storm of idiocy."

"We armed the [Sinaloa] cartel," Canino told investigators. "It is disgusting." Canino will be a key witness at the hearing.

Some video from the hearing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANSbwmYlYI

 

[Davek1977]

If people would stop drinking Kool-aid, we wouldn't have to read posts which are certain that F&F is a conspiracy planned by Obama.

I've yet to see any of the conspiracy deniers explain how this operation was supposed to ultimately work in any conceivable fashion employing the techniques used. No one can put their finger on just what was SUPPOSED to happen if things went as planned (and thats operating under the ((rather large)) assumption that something DID go wrong, instead of going exactly as they wanted it to).

Neverwinter....if this WAS NOT a conspiracy, exactly how would any reasonable person believe this operation could possible be successful employing the strategy used? If the alleged intent of the program...and how it was carried out....made any sense whatsoever, the conspiracies wouldn't be nearly so rampant.

Its just that looking at the operation from an unbiased POV shows a poorly designed plan with very little chance of success, and that makes people wonder how it was approved by so many officials. It makes as much sense as the DEA supplying crack to dealers. An agency shouldn't PROVIDE to criminals the very thing the entire agency is funded to PREVENT.

So, enlighten those of us you think are drinking the Kool Aid and tell us just how, in your opinion, this stood any chance of succeeding in accomplishing the stated "official" goal of DISARMING the cartels and arresting high ranking members(some of whom are now alleged to have been FBI informants the entire time!!!)???????

In this case, the conspiracy if you want to call it that makes far more sense than the official story that we've been given, especially when the official story is being poked full of holes from those actually working the operation. If the government wants to maintain any sort of credibility at this point, the "official" version of events had better change to better reflect the realtity we are becoming more aware of daily.

 

[Mike1234567]

RE: Conspiracy...

When the grass is thick and tall and frought with rats hiding therein... there are usually snakes.

 

[HD Fboy]

Here are 2 questions for any boots on the ground LEO's (active or retired) reading this post:

"Can you / would you allow a controlled item (drugs, guns, cash, etc) to "walk away" from surveillance unless you were specifically ordered to allow the item to "walk away"?

Would you question this practice to higher ups on the initial incidence? Second? Tenth?

One comment, I can see a misguided op starting up but being stopped soon after as word filtered up through management. But allowing 2 felons to purchase 350 firearms is honestly beyond my ability to fathom. Think about a person around 25 years old, not dressed well buying 350 guns that cost $500-$1,000 each. Had I been the gun store owner I would have totally freaked out over that one.

 

[Deanimator]

Had I been the gun store owner I would have totally freaked out over that one.

I'll bet that trust between gun dealers and the BATFE is pretty much ZERO. If I were an FFL, these days I wouldn't do ANYTHING that wasn't 100% by the book. Furthermore, I'd audio and or video record EVERY first person communication between me and ANYBODY in the BATFE. I'd also have backup notarized copies of ALL important documents.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Of course I've NEVER trusted them as far as I could throw Rosie O'Donnell and a boxcar full of hammers. But then why would you trust ANY agency which once produced an official training video on how to lie under oath?

 

[thanatopsis]

I've yet to see any of the conspiracy deniers explain how this operation was supposed to ultimately work in any conceivable fashion employing the techniques used. No one can put their finger on just what was SUPPOSED to happen if things went as planned (and thats operating under the ((rather large)) assumption that something DID go wrong, instead of going exactly as they wanted it to).

IF you believe the concept that their goal was to set up a RECO (sp) case then the only screw up, which admittedly the screw up was massive was that they didn't let the Mexican Gov know what was going on and who to track.

 

[Millwright]

Actually, the "Castaway" appellation is one supplied by Mike Vanderbreogh, and not an "official" one, but its sure seems to be gaining traction ! The ops in Houston and Dallas haven't, ( SFAIK, or have heard to date), any "name" identifyer either.

What makes this emerging case so scandalous IMO, is Tuesday's revelations knowledge of what was actually transpiring in OFF spread through so many level of so many government agencies charged with oversight without anyone hollering 'whoa' ! . All seemed content to merely "kick the can" on up the CoC.

Kudos to Mr. Trey Gowdy, Rep, of S.C. for his adroit questioning of Newell that so ably rebutted assertions from Dem. committee members ATF need "more tools" in the form of new gun laws as the present ones "had no teeth", (as asserted by Mr. Newell). Gowdy cited chapter and verse while forcing Newell to admit he knew the laws and associate penalities. >MW

 

[Neverwinter]

Neverwinter....if this WAS NOT a conspiracy,

What I said was that the people who jumped to the conclusion that this is an Obama conspiracy were drinking Kool-aid.

 

[Ignition Override]

Other than many gun owners, of whom maybe a large fraction are familiar with this bureaucratic disaster, do many of the general public find the case disturbing?

Even if they are bothered by it, my impression is that Attorney General Eric Holder won't ever be held responsible by any authorities who can cost him his present job.
How can the Dept. of Justice really investigate itself with even the FBI underneath in the chain of command?

DAVEK1977:
Your logic holds water as well as any other explanations I've seen.

 

[publius]

Here are 2 questions for any boots on the ground LEO's (active or retired) reading this post:

"Can you / would you allow a controlled item (drugs, guns, cash, etc) to "walk away" from surveillance unless you were specifically ordered to allow the item to "walk away"?

Would you question this practice to higher ups on the initial incidence? Second? Tenth?

"You don't let guns walk. I've never let a gun walk." -- ATF Special Agent Rene Jaquez

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/21/eveningnews/main20045609.shtml

 

[Davek1977]

What I said was that the people who jumped to the conclusion that this is an Obama conspiracy were drinking Kool-aid.

It happened on his watch, under his appointee Holder. The "I didn't know" defense doesn't hold much weight considering ther various other lies involved with this fiasco. NO ONE is going to ADMIT their involvement, at least not at the higher levels that called the shots. Hopefully the ongoing hearings will be able to answer the questions of who knew and when soon. As it stands now, everyone is firmly rooted in CYA (cover your a__) mode, and its hard to believe the denials when careers potentially hang in the balance.

 

[kis2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ETDnGKR2c

thats about three hours of video from the 26 july hearing FYI

and some highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6vrRco01XA&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANSbwmYlYI&feature=relmfu

part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yen7xusqDGs

 

[kis2]

and part three

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z33Lntd4uzU

 

[publius]

and some highlights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6vrR...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANSb...feature=relmfu

Newell is quite the expert at the non-answer, isn't he?

In part, his non-answers boil down to: we need tougher laws against straw buyers, and arresting straw buyers is pretty pointless. We were going to tell the Mexican government and the ATF agents working in Mexico that incredibly large numbers of guns from certain known straw buyers were known to us to be appearing in Mexico soon, mon. And that "soon" is in a very island-time sense of the word. (read: sometimes never actually arrives)

 

[Dave Workman]

Issa to NRA: Two more Fast & Furious hearings planned this year

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-...-more-fast-furious-hearings-planned-this-year


Issa and Grassley are like dogs on a scent. If Issa can get these two hearings, they ought to be just as revealing as the first three, and certainly the one this past Tuesday.

Every new revelation is more remarkable than the last.

 

[publius]

Other than buying into the 90% myth, this is a very thorough article on gunwalking:

What Led To Project Gunwalker?

 

[Mike1234567]

Good article. Thank you for the link.

 

[armoredman]

The writer buys into some myths, leaves out some important details to try to make is make sense, and still can't come up with a logical reason, admitting defeat at the end.

 

[Standing Wolf]

How can the Dept. of Justice really investigate itself with even the FBI underneath in the chain of command?

The appearance of justice is all too often close enough to pass for justice.

 

[HD Fboy]

I spoke with a guy who works in a local gun store. Here is a quote:

"Guy comes in we don't know, no way we let him walk out with 5 guns."

He went on to say that even if directed by the ATF they wouldn't do it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

In allowing guns onto the streets in hopes of knocking off a big arms-trafficking ring, had ATF's Group VII been unwitting accomplices in the death of a fellow federal agent?

All true, except for the word "unwitting." They wanted killings they could trace to these guns, so they could "justify" new anti-gun laws.

 

[Millwright]

NW,
Looked at dispassionately, its hard to see how OFF (and other, perhaps yet unrevealed, ops ) were anything remotely approaching a legitimate police investigation/sting operation. Senior ATF agents are on record as stating the tactics employed violated every precept and procedure they were taught from day one.

But if you care to "splain" the occurrance of so many co-incidences of convenience regarding crime firearms and seizures just happened to occur on the Obama Administration's watch, I'll be glad to peruse. >MW

 

[azmjs]

All true, except for the word "unwitting." They wanted killings they could trace to these guns, so they could "justify" new anti-gun laws.

That is an absurd and vulgar slander, and an insult to federal law enforcement and our many dedicated public servants.

 

[we are not amused]

That is an absurd and vulgar slander, and an insult to federal law enforcement and our many dedicated public servants.

Unfortunately while it may be an insult, it is not slander or absurd anymore after the testimony this past week. One of Obama's National Security Advisers was informed of the program, so we now know that the Justice Dept. was involved, the FBI, the DEA, and White House Officials (the National Security Adviser). The question now is, when did Obama find out, and who ultimately authorized this debacle. The reason for it is becoming increasingly obvious, with all the News stories which were inspired by Government officials about how "irresponsible gun store owners" were providing guns to the Mexican Drug lords. Both Obama and Hillary Clinton were promoting those stories. Were they aware that many of those guns were being supplied by the BATF? And we now know about the operation known as "Castaway" operating out of Florida, there are stories that the same or a similar programs were operating out of Texas. We may soon know that instead of 2,400 weapons, it may have been many times that number. At what point does the term "Criminal Conspiracy at the highest levels" become the common description of these illegal acts?

 

[azmjs]

He didn't say anything about that, he said they "willingly wanted killings they could trace to the guns so they could justify new anti-gun laws."

I suppose its a bit too much common sense to inject the fact that these guns in the sting are "traced" back to the ATF and its sting.