Justice served?

[flatrock]

Beren,

Why not just keep driving if the car was undamaged, and call the cops? Or, if one wanted to be proactive in getting the little snots their deserved punishment, circle around, call the cops, and keep an eye on them until the cops get there? If the car was damaged, then it would be entirely reasonable for them to stop. It'd even seem reasonable to stop to CHECK for damage.

Handling the situation in the way you suggest would likey have been a better chioce. However, the kids actions were putting people at risk, so it they had done that this story might about the traffic accident the kids caused before the police arrived.

If the passenger just jumped out and started beating on the kid, then that's assault, and the passenger should pay a price for that assault.

The driver is guilty of chasing a kid who was committing a criminal act that put others at considerable risk. That's not a crime.

It's always possible to look at things at hindsight and thing of how they could be handled better. Not living up to the expectations of the people who are examining the situation with the benefit of hindsight is not negligence.

The passenger beating on the one kid isn't a negligent act. It's a purposfull, criminal act.

Chasing the other kid is not negligent.

Firing bottle rockets at traffic is a negligent act that could have caused innocent people harm.

 

[AK-74me]

2. Does a bottle rocket present a threat of death or serious bodily injury to a person in a moving car? No

I am not saying that it is most outrageous thing a kid has done but your a are crazy if you don't think that shooting a bottle rocket a moving cars is a serious threat. Not even mentioning that it could enter a window and injure a driver, just hitting a windshield would sure be enough to make someone swere losing control of the car and killing possibly many.

Should they have beat the kid? no

Should they have stayed at the scene? yes

Should they have stopped and chased the kids down? I would and I bet alot of other people would too.

Would the kid still be dead just from the chasing? yes it looks like it.

So getting down to it the 20 somethings are facing manslaughter for chasing.
Kid was dumb in more then one way. Take your deserved whimping or run into traffic and take on a 3500lb vehicle going 60 mph

 

[Beren]

Flat,

I'm with you on most of what you say.

Was he chasing down a criminal to restrain him and turn him over to the authorities? It sounds doubtful, given that his buddy was allegedly putting the smack down on the other kid. It sounds more likely that the guy was chasing the kid down with the intent of doing harm, not to restrain or apprehend him.

 

[flatrock]

Mike,

Don't feel sorry for anyone, except the 17 year old driver.

I feel very sorry for the 17 year old driver.

1. Should a 12 y.o. be out after midnight unsupervised? No.

Nope.

2. Does a bottle rocket present a threat of death or serious bodily injury to a person in a moving car? No.

Yes, because it can shock and distract a driver and cause an accident. People do get killed due to such things. However, it was not an immediate threat unless they were about to shoot another rocket, and the chance of causing serious harm was relatively low.

3. Was the 22y.o. moron justified in assaulting the 12 y.o. moron? No.

We lack details, but most likely his actions were unjustified and criminal.

4. Was it reasonable for the 22y.o. moron to pursue the 12y.o. moron? No.

I disagree. It wasn't the best choice of actions, but it wasn't unreasonable either.

5. Was the use of force justified? No.

The level of force justified was the level of force necessisary to restrain the kids until the cops arrived.

6. Should the surviving moron be held accountable for the death? Yes.

Which surviving moron? There are at least two morons involved. The susviving kid and the passenger who "beat" the surviving kid. The surviving kid performend no actions that could have reasonably caused the kid to run out into traffic.

It would be awfully hard to say that the passenger forced the kid to run into traffic by beating the other kid as well.

If shooting bottle rockets into traffic is a felony, thant the survivng kid could be charged with felony murder, but it's doubtful that a minor would be charged with that crime.

7. Should the parents of the 12y.o. moron share some of the burden? Yes.

I've seen good parents struggle with bad kids. I've seen bad parents end up with good kids. The parents have a civil liability for the damage their kids caused, including the damage to the 17 year old's car, but it's hard to pin criminal liability on them.

You have to pick and choose your fights. Attacking a 12y.o. over a bottle rocket is not a wise choice.

Definately not. However, since the driver never caught the kid, he never even had the chance to attack him. If he caught him and beat him, he would have been guilty of assault. If he caught him and restrained him, he would have been doing a public service. Despite what the liberal media leads us to believe, it is a public service to stop criminals and restrain them, even kids performing petty crimes.

 

[flatrock]

Beren

Was he chasing down a criminal to restrain him and turn him over to the authorities? It sounds doubtful, given that his buddy was allegedly putting the smack down on the other kid. It sounds more likely that the guy was chasing the kid down with the intent of doing harm, not to restrain or apprehend him.

Yea, probably. But there's still lots of room for a reasonable doubt that he would have beat the brat, and that still doesn't make his actions rise to the level of negligently causing the kids death.

I doubt they'll be charged in the kids death. If they're sued in civil court, they might have a harder time due to the tendency of people to feel that when a kid dies, someone else must be held responsible.

 

[MikeIsaj]

2. Does a bottle rocket present a threat of death or serious bodily injury to a person in a moving car? No

I was not clear in expressing my thought. I should have said "Was the bottle rocket a threat to this particular person in this incident?"

I also should have seperated the two adult morons for individual consideration. Whether you were the moron beating one kid, or the moron who could not catch your intended victim, you are still in the act of committing a criminal act. Does anyone really think the pursuit would have ended in minimum force necessary to detain for police?

As far as not having enough facts, I think there is more than enough info here to suport my opinion. Two idiot minors were out after midnight unsupervised. Two idiot adults overreacted to a minor incident. One adult did indeed assault a minor without any legal justification. One adult did indeed chase another minor into a street. For whatever reasons you wish to cite to excuse the parents, they did not do their job!

 

[doger5]

It is sad that the 12 year old died, the parents should be held responsible.

I used to work nights at Target in a upper middle class neighborhood and the parents would not watch their children. They would tear up the store! We had an incident two middle school age boys were using motorola radios and riding bikes around the store, from the sporting goods department. They never caught them! It makes me angry to this day, if security had notified everyone on all the radios. I had one fly by me, I would have tackled the boy. Called the police and then his parents. I don't care for boys will be boys crap. You are still responsible for your actions.

I have friends who have said I am too strict with my 17 month old daughter. I do not want my daughter acting like the kids in Target. I have to worry she's prepared to deal with all the problems that are going to come her way.

If you read the newspaper and see what happens to kids, I'm a concerned father. One incident that sticks out is the middle school girl cornered in the rest room and boy forced her to preform oral sex.

 

[Balog]

Shooting pyro (or throwing rocks) at moving cars constitutes a real and imminent danger to innocent lives. I don't care how old they were, endangering lives is the sort of action that merits being chased down and apprehended. If you die fleeing from this justified apprehension it's no more than you deserve.

If the 22yo was actually "beating" the 12yo, that was unjustified. However, the article says the charge is manslaughter, not assault.

The 12yo's parents should be flogged for this.

 

[BryanP]

Yes the kids were stupid. The adults (drivers) moreso.

Adults by definition are supposed to show more restraint and responsibility than children. That's why they're held to a higher standard for their actions. These so-called adults are going to be justifiably smacked down hard. At a minimum I would call it reckless endangerment if not manslaughter.

It isn't my place to beat some kid's ass like those two did.(and if you think the chaser was going to do anything else you're deluding yourself). It's my place to turn them over to the police and their parents, respectively.

 

[HankB]

Shooting fireworks at anyone, let alone moving traffic, IMHO, puts the targets at serious risk of a collision - and many collisions are fatal. This is no harmless juvenile prank like a silly phone call, this puts people at serious risk.

A 22 year old shouldn't "beat" a 12 year old . . . but we really don't know what this "beating" consisted of! I'll reserve judgement on that guy.

As for the perp that got run over . . . I don't see that his victim - the guy he was shooting fireworks at - is guilty of anything criminal for chasing him, even though the little miscreant ran out in traffic and got run over. (It would be a vastly different case if the guy had caught him and heaved him into traffic or something - but he didn't.)

 

[cracked butt]

For all of you who claim that launching bottle rockets put people in serious danger, would you pull your CCW weapon and pop a 12 YO if you caught him in the act of launching a bottle rocket at a car? Didn't think so.

 

[AK-74me]

For all of you who claim that launching bottle rockets put people in serious danger, would you pull your CCW weapon and pop a 12 YO if you caught him in the act of launching a bottle rocket at a car? Didn't think so.

That is a ridiculous argument. There alot of things in the world that put people in serious danger that you wouldn't pull a gun on them for. A car driving 100 mph swerving in and out of traffic is certainly a serious threat to human lives, dosen't mean I would or would be justified pointing my gun at them as they drove by.

So what is your point again?

 

[cracked butt]

car driving 100 mph swerving in and out of traffic is certainly a serious threat to human lives, dosen't mean I would or would be justified pointing my gun at them as they drove by.

If such a person pulled off the road, would you think it should be your job to apprehend or even teach them a little lesson?

 

[AK-74me]

No, personally I don't but that is a whole 'nother story than pulling your gun on them or getting charged with man-slaughter because the the heathen that was just shooting bottle rockets at you decided to run out in traffic when you went to confront him.

 

[Denko]

I shot bottle rockets at cars as did most of the kids.We even shot them at the cops,they just grinned.That was the 60's,now is seems everyone is in danger of something.As to a 22yr old hitting a kid,the fathers in the neighborhood would have hurt him.I did another dangerous thing.I rode my bike to the store and bought a box of 22LR for 50 cents.Something has been lost in this country.I do feel sorry for the girl.

 

[Balog]

Soo, you're equating juvenile delinquency with some type of lost American heritage? I love cheap ammo, but I fail to see how that relates to the situation.

"I long for the good old days when putting a flaming bag of dog crap on someones doorstep wasn't a privilege, it was a right!"

 

[Sindawe]

The kid was an obvious Darwin Award candidate.

Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.