justifiable poaching?

[MCgunner]

I clicked yes with reservations. It'd have to be one of those survival, end of the world, all society has collapsed, "SHTF" this board puts it scenarios. I'd never do such a thing if I'd just gotten laid off or something. Hell, I lost my job in 01 and just decided to retire and work for myself. I haven't missed a meal. That's why you SAVE, SAVE, SAVE and invest in your younger working years, for financial security. When I was younger, I always had Mom if I got desperate. Now, my daughter has Dad if she gets desperate. And, there are plenty of hogs out there I can feed on legally without poaching. The farmers might consider hogs a pest, I think they're God's gift to the indigent. No reason to kill a deer out of season or trespass. Explain yourself to a farmer with a hog problem and you'll probably get permission, hell, even help trapping hogs. And, the bay around here is full of fish, oysters, etc.

Yeah, if you CAN work, you can FIND work. If you CAN'T work, how the hell are you going to butcher a deer? That's why there is social security disability. I have a friend in dire straights right now, but he's near social security anyway and getting VA disability (wounded vet). He gets a part of my hog catch and I take him down to my place and set him on a stand now and then, but not so much for food as the fact that we are friends and he likes to hunt and can't afford a lease. Fortunately, he has a paid for home. His wife works, so they make it by. See, this is why we have friends and family, for bad situations. I think urban folks don't seem to remember such things, most live out their lives and never even know their neighbors, let alone anyone else in town. Extended families are a thing of the past and kids don't seem to have a sense of responsibility for their parents (if they know who they are) anymore.

 

[USMC - Retired]

I would vote for only in a true survival situation. Such as being charged by a grizz and having to shoot out of defense, or lost in the wilderness and having to take game to survive. If it's just a matter of putting food on the table then take advantage of one of the thousands of programs out there for low income folks or take the game within the limits of the law.

 

[dead on]

i am a dairy farmer that deals with poaching all year long on my land.I have had the pleasure of catching a few of these guys too. And have heard the feeding my family bit used, didnt buy it tho....since he was driving a 2006 ford truck and using a browning gold hunter topped with a bushnell elite....must be times are tough around my place

 

[Art Eatman]

This is one of the few areas where my ethics are situational.

If I'm hunting on a deer lease ranch, I work very hard to do ethical hunting and obey the game laws.

Were I very poor and living in some parts of central Texas, with its notable overpopulation of whitetail deer, I'd probably eat more than "my share" of venison. The herd numbers are far above the carrying capacity of the land.

Back in the late 1960s, I moved back to the old family ranch near Austin. I had way too many deer on the place. I went out one night with a spotlight and counted some fifty pairs of eyes in just one 100-acre pasture. Runty, scraggle-horned; mature spikes, etc. I did a totally illegal culling, mostly does, and within four years saw a dramatic increase in average size of all deer. I then was quite happy to quit culling. But instead of bucks dressing out at 90 pounds, they were up toward 125, +/-.

(The area got developed. I phrased it that we were "attacked" by subdivisions. Cars killed more deer than I did...)

Out here in the desert? I'd turn in a poacher in a heartbeat. Sparse population of mule deer. Better to kill lions; they taste good.

In general, I far and away prefer to follow the game laws, even when I know I wouldn't get caught.

 

[revamp]

Another perspective on the "poaching to feed the family" excuse.

I'm relatively young--just turned 29 and grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland OH. When I was young (not too long ago and not in rural America), a local Steel plant closed down and thousands of men lost their jobs and flooded the employment market looking for new ones. My dad was one of them. He tried to make ends meet by selling cars, but wasn't having much luck in a demolished economy.

My dad has always been a hunter, has always been a gun enthusiast, but he didn't turn to poaching to feed us.

He raised rabbits. He built a shed, hand-made some cages out of sheets of galvanized mesh, was given some rabbits from a friend. He let the rabbits do what rabbits do best, and soon we had a self-renewing form of meat that carried the family (a family of 4) through 2-3 years of hard times.

 

[Ranger J]

Killing a deer out of season for food when you can't get any other way is one thing. Around here the 'average poacher' drives a 35 thousand dollar 4 X 4 and shoots a several thousand dollar gun with an elaborate spotlighting system (often with night vision scopes) and when confronted this same person will tell you he is just shooting the deer to feed his family. Bad back problems seems to be rampant among these people and this prevents them from holding a job (the wife often has two jobs) but doesn't prevent him from any hunting or fishing. As often as not we find deer carcasses with just the tenderloin cut out of them or in the case of bucks with just the antlers cut off. Poaching in our area is not a matter of survival but pure laziness. Most of these people are too lazy to do their scouting, put up stands and then maybe spend hours waiting for deer to pass in shooting range. As you can see I have little use for the local poachers. If they honestly couldn't get or because of real physical problems hold a job and were forced to shoot an occasional deer that might be OK. In our area one of the largest local land owner's family are the biggest poachers with thousands of acres of land. Then do they poach deer on their land? H*** no, they drive up and down the country roads shooting what are potentially my deer. I have worked with the local game authorities and they are well aware of who these people are and I am sure they will get them some day. The problem, according to the agents, is that most of the local judges are members of the 'good old boy' network and they will either find these people innocent or let them off with a slap on the hand. There now that I have ranted I feel much better!

RJ

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, there aren't many that poach in this area and the ones that do are on the Game Warden's list, you can bet on that. I know one such public enemy. He ain't a really bad person, he just has totally screwed up hunter ethics and I don't hang around this guy. I used to work with him. His son got caught by helicopter hunting in the dunes on Padre Island at the land cut, national sea shore and where the big deer go when hunting season starts. He lost his gun, his ATV, his Carolina Skiff, and did a year in jail. Was it worth it? I don't know that the kid OR father learned a damned thing, either. They're probably plotting a way in there without getting caught, maybe their own helicopter or something. I remember a bull session at work once when I was talking about this guy's hovercraft (still think one of those would be neat for the duck marsh) and this guy spoke up and says "Hmm, one of those wouldn't leave tracks in the sand, either, would it?" You know what HE was thinkin'.

 

[frogomatic]

don't you know it's against the law to kill the king's deer

"poaching" - just another way to criminalize the self-suffecient and enforce a state of dependency on the people. Just another intrusion, an attempt at controlling how a person lives on his/her little piece of god's green earth.

 

[rbernie]

"poaching" - just another way to criminalize the self-suffecient and enforce a state of dependency on the people.

Dispite the desire to view any/all restrictions as political muzzling, many games laws can be readily traced to nothing more sinister than proper wildlife management tenets.

 

[MCgunner]

Frogomatic.....You're kiddin', right? Ever hear of game management? Do you know what state deer populations were in EVEN IN TEXAS and even in Llano county where there's now a deer under every tree, before conservation laws were passed and limits and seasons were established? You should educate yourself. I spent 4 years at Texas A&M studying Wildlife and Fisheries Management. You can't do it without laws and people obeying said laws. You can't just go out there and have a free for all. They aren't the "king's deer", they're the public's deer and there won't be any deer without proper management. And, God help you if I catch you on my land. They might have to haul you off in a hearse, if you threaten me while I'm holding you for the game warden.

 

[cracked butt]

Yeah, if you CAN work, you can FIND work. If you CAN'T work, how the hell are you going to butcher a deer? That's why there is social security disability

In rural areas, its not uncommon that most jobs are low paying, some people might work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the bills. Having a 100 lbs of meat in the freezer from a critter that was grazing behind your house the day before is not a luxury or something to do for fun, its a Godsend. here are still rural folk out there that aren't so eager as city folk to jump on the .gov gravy train and in such areas doing so is really looked down upon. I know of people who wouldn't sign up for unemployment benefits because to them it was welfare and and only losers collect it.

There are those with the $30,000 trucks and $1000 rifles that jacklight deer, but don't paint everyone with a broad brush. There are still Americans out there that are independant and hard enough that they'll eat what they can find, grow, and shoot before they will bow to sugar daddy Uncle Sam.

 

[.41 magnum man]

I voted yes like many others if the situation was life one of survival. I lived for almost 9 years in a cabin back in the wilderness in my 20's, and though I worked for a living there was one time when I lost my job and had no income for over a month. Still, I did not kill any animals to eat, but became very knowledgable about wild mushrooms. There is one type of mushroom in that area that was very abundant during that time of the year, called "Swamps" by the locals. They are a type of lacterius mushroom, which are very delicious and meaty. (Easily confused with other unedible mushrooms. Always KNOW what you are doing before you eat ANY wild mushroom!) I ate those things for a solid month. I had them for breakfast, lunch, and supper. I fried them, I baked them, I even made a pan of them with chicken "Shake and Bake." I loved those mushrooms before I lost my job, but since that time--I HATE SWAMPS! I still eat other types of edible wild mushrooms though. Anyway, I survived my month of being poor, and I didn't have to break any laws to do it. Just goes to show there are other alternatives sometimes.

 

[frogomatic]

just for the record, I do not poach. I also understand, very well, the need for game management. My home area right now suffers from rather poor game management. Populations of nearly all game species are at an all time high, and are well into the 'over-population' range. The harsh penalties for minor infractions, the high cost of permits, and the poor attitude on the part of DOC officers in the area is what really gets me riled up about .gov controlling the hunting. The ammount of game I cull would not change regardless of what regulations were put on hunting. I take only what I need to get me through the year. When I've had opportunity to take sick, weak, or just unhealthy game, I do so, and in doing so have done my part to simulate a more natural predator/prey relationship. I also raise a few chickens and rabbits to reduce my hunting needs. I guess it just comes down to the fact that I don't like the .gov controlling how I live, when I do so in responsible and ethical manner. To me it's no different than the gun regulations placed on me despite the fact that I'm a responsible and ethical gun owner.

edit: perhaps the term 'poaching' just needs a slight redefinition. I do agree that jerks with expensive trucks, guns, and spotlights, that are just killing for the trophy are indeed poachers and should be dealt with harshly. But a guy who REALLY is just feeding his family shouldn't be placed under the same label.

 

[41magsnub]

I voted no. I can see an exception for somebody starving, but generally speaking no. I think in extreme circumstances survival is more important than the law. But, if the general consensus is that poaching is ok then the various jackasses out there will slaughter the wildlife populations.

 

[woodybrighton]

I eked out my student grant by poaching mostly rabbit though the odd wood pigeon using a .22 suppressed air rifle
might have got permission if I asked.
though when I rented an allotment off the council and rabbits ate my veg it was more ethnic cleansing than strictly for food

conversation with council officer
me "place is over ran with rabbits could you do some pest control"
council officer "can't do that if news got out there'd be hell to pay form animal liberation types they wrecked the swimming pool and bowling greens last time.
what if somebody shot them
that would be illegal and you'd be in trouble if you got caught
so I won't get caught had all that expensive army training seems a shame to waste it
council officer laughing we never had this conversation
2 weeks 350 rabbits later
freezer full neighbors freezers full old peoples centres freezer full did'nt cook sunday lunch for a year
allotment society stops whining about bloody rabbits

 

[Geno]

I remember attending a court proceeding with my former LEO BIL so I could see the process. A DNR officer had caught this guy poaching a deer. The poacher claimed he had lost his job. He continued that couldn't even afford a license to hunt, and that he needed to feed his kids. The judge probably would have bought his story but for the fact that the guy only took the hind-quarters. The balance of the deer was the evidence against him. He got a big fine, about 10 days in jail, lost his firearm and lost his hunting ability for 5 years.

 

[MCgunner]

In rural areas, its not uncommon that most jobs are low paying, some people might work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the bills. Having a 100 lbs of meat in the freezer from a critter that was grazing behind your house the day before is not a luxury or something to do for fun, its a Godsend. here are still rural folk out there that aren't so eager as city folk to jump on the .gov gravy train

Ya know what? For 35 years the gov'ment took FICA out of my paycheck in spades. Now that it's coming up MY turn to draw a little of it, damned little considering, I don't have a single problem with it. I live in a megalopolis of 12,000 people in a county that might contain 40K, not sure. We ain't exactly Houston's fifth ward, put it that way, and all around me I see WIC and SSI disability and this and that. Friends and even my wife draw disability. In her case, she got in a wreck and can't stand up for long, though she can make it out of the bed to her motorized wheelchair or to the pot or whatever. I'm not going to go out and kill illegal deer to support us, nope, I believe in conservation of wildlife resources. If we'd not started conservation programs and instated laws to enforce them, where would we be now? You'd not have any game to poach. Perhaps I'm a little idealistic, but folks NEED TO FOLLOW GAME LAWS AND NOT IGNORE THEM BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY'RE THE PRODUCT OF SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!! If you don't follow the law and you get caught, you won't get any sympathy from me, indigent or not.

And, I've been there as a broke student eeking my way through school, too, but I did it legal and with permission of land owners. I ate a lot of dandelion, prickly pear, crawdads, fish, and such that were taken legally. I didn't eat regular, but I didn't starve. When I got my first job, 3 months later I'd gained 20 lbs and a belly roll. In ways, sparse eating was good for me. There are no gov'ment programs for broke students. If you wanna get out of college without debt to chain you for the rest of your working life, it's going to be by holding down several jobs and just doing it on your own. But, it does build character, I reckon. MY parents were working poor, always worked, never had much, pretty much all I'd ever known. I'm pretty broke right now, but I'm far more well off than they were. I did it by living below my means and saving over the years and getting an education and working my whole life and not carrying what the Jone's thought. I didn't get here by social welfare or feeling sorry for myself or killing the "king's deer".

 

[oklahoma caveman]

im gona be the better man an not get into a pissing match with some people on here who are trying to be hard asses.

as far as poachers who only take a ham or strap or the horns my op says my feeling on that.

i was just asking if it could ever be justifiable/excusable ever

 

[marksman13]

I do understand and appreciate the need for game management. That said, I belive that many states are getting close to max sustainable capacity with deer herds. Many states, like Blackfork alluded to, could even list deer as a pest animal. It will never happen though for a couple of reasons. Number one, deer hunting is a fairly sizeable source of income for many states. A drop in the bucket compared to some sources, but still a big enough cash cow that they won't turn it loose. Second, if the state let people hunt deer like they do coyotes and other vermin, we would be right back to the meager populations we had in the earlier part of this century. And third there would be alot more accidents when the week end warriors realized they could hunt ol Bambi with a spotlight from the road. Can you imagine how many lazy b#####ds would be riding around at night on opening day shooting deer out of people's front yards and pastures.

I can understand shooting a deer in the Summer to keep a family fed, and I could even go for hunting clubs and land owners being able to have organized night hunts to keep populations in check, but Bubba riding around with his rifle shooting deer off the road in the Summer...no way.

 

[oklahoma caveman]

ok this is starting to veer off course. i said it IS season and if you had the money to buy tags you could kill 4 deer. legally. what im saying is you kill 4 deer DURING DEER SEASON only without checking them in

 

[MCgunner]

Well, yeah, when the country goes socialist and the Muslims attack and conquer and instate "sharia law" or whatever the hell it is, I'll be living out in the mountains of New Mexico where once the Apache fought the invaders off (for a while at least) and I'll be killin' deer, jerking elk meat, and eating prickly pear. But, until then.....

 

[308win]

If the poaching is for monetary gain it isn't justified. If the poaching is to feed the family or yourself and it is truly that or go hungry it is hard for me to find fault.

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

the difference for me is survival vs profit

If you are in a survival situation remote widlerness and hunting for surviaval yes it is ! i would think I would rather take a rabbit or 2 or game bird rather than deal with a whole deer1 But I guess it depaends on how many mouths you have to feed ! I have found too many people where i live that violate the fishing restrictions on game fish for profit ! now that is POACHING!

 

[oklahoma caveman]

yes agreed poaching anything that is for monetary gain or personal trophies is never justifiable and should be a more serious crime than it is in many places

 

[MCgunner]

They raised the trespass laws from misdemeanor to felony status a while back in Texas at least where poaching is concerned. This guy I spoke of has taken Nilgai off the Kennedy ranch. Now, that is felony theft I reckon, because they are not considered game there, but rather as livestock.

When the great conflagration comes, there will be no law abiding citizens, game laws or otherwise. I made the statement on SOME thread that if it was dog eat dog, the bomb dropped, the Muslims were hanging infidels in the streets, I'd just shoot a calf instead of going after game. All the ranchers piled on, but if they were law abiding in a "Road Warrior" scenario, there would be no ranchers, they'd be long since dead or they'd be living like me, hiding, killing what they needed to eat, and hoping to form a resistance fighter force or something.

Yeah, silly ain't it? I voted yes, but it'd have to come to that situation before I'd give up on society and the law and just go into survival mode. Unemployment isn't a good enough reason way I see it. Of course, I have a whole bay full of fish here. Why hunt when fishing is really more productive? Those hard head cat fish that people toss away and cuss as trash fish, well, poor folks eat 'em and they're really quite edible and good. I even hear folks cuss gafftop catfish, but I eat 'em all the time. Those suckers get BIG and fight hard and fry up just as good as any drum or redfish. Priorities, man, priorities!!!