K31, am I expecting too much from my reloads?

[Exposure]

I have a very nice K31 that with open sites I can shoot 2.5" groups at 100 yards using factory loaded GP11 ammunition.

I now have the rifle scoped and have been trying to find the perfect reloads for even tighter groups for it for about 4 months now. Today I shot my first reloads that grouped under 3" at 100 yards.

I am pretty disappointed to be honest. I have spent tons of time and effort working up handloads and after all that finally shot a 2.625" 5 shot group today. And this was through a scope, still not as good as I can do with the factory stuff with open sites!

What am I doing wrong?

Here is the recipe that finally got me below 3" with handloads.

Wolf brass
Cases trimmed to the same length as GP11 factory loaded rounds, chamferred and deburred
175 Grs. Sierra HPBT Match King bullets
#200 CCI Large Rifle Primers
42 Grs. IMR 4064
2.980" OAL

This EXACT same recipe with 168 Sierra HPBT Match kings yielded a group of about 3.25" at 100 yards!

I am not a bad shot with a rifle. But I feel like I am doing something wrong. I follow the same procedure every time I reload as I know consistancy is the key. Maybe my case prep is wrong? Here is my procedure:

Resize/Deprime/Prime
TTL
Chamfer/Deburr
Charge with powder
Seat bullet

Any input on this situation will be greatly appreciated! Maybe I am just expecting more than this rifle is capable of.

At this point I am ready to give up on it. The bore and crown are beautiful, I have read many reports of these rifles easily shooting under an inch at 100 yards. I am new to reloading so maybe it is normal to have to work hard to find a sub MOA load for a rifle?

Or maybe it is me. I have one other rifle that I can EASILY shoot 1 hole groups at 100 yards with on a regular basis. So I am pretty confident in my rifle skills, but who knows, maybe I just am a poor rifle shot!

Thanks in advance.

 

[dcloco]

It is not the reloads, but you do need to accurize some of the Swiss K31's. I have one that has "the works" done to it. Yes, at/under an inch at 100 yards with OPEN sights. Under 4" at 300 yards. It DOES take practice.

Have you been to swissrifles.com yet? Excellent information on accurizing your Swiss without making permanent changes.

Start with maintaining the same torque on the action bolts. Second, loosen both bands holding the forearm onto the stock. Tighten 1/4 turn at a time until you see the groups tighten up...

 

[Steve C]

Neck sizing only, helps in accuracy and if you are only shooting your reloads in one rifle there's no need to full length size. It also adds the benefit of your brass lasting longer.

 

[Canuck-IL]

I haven't reloaded my first 7.5 rounds yet so, FWIW just from reading around the net, is it possible that those loads are a little long with the bullet's profile?

Here's an article on OAL for the Swiss:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/swissreloading1/index.asp

And here's a couple of accurizing links:
http://p083.ezboard.com/ftheswissriflesdotcommessageboardfrm8.showMessage?topicID=4552.topic

http://p083.ezboard.com/ftheswissriflesdotcommessageboardfrm8.showMessage?topicID=4701.topic

Let us know how it progresses.
/Bryan

 

[bender]

how is the scope mounted?

I have a recent k31 addition to my collection (first k31), and I have not reloaded for it yet, but will soon. I put one of those swiss St. Marie clamp-on mounts on it, that require no gunsmithing. I bought some 1" steel 3/8 dove-tail rings and I put a Burris Fullfield II 3-9 x 40 scope on it. I am a little worried about the mount and rings loosening up over time, but I'll see what happens.

I'll be following this thread for any more reloading or accurizing information...

 

[Slamfire]

Guy: I doubt that it is the load or the rifle. I suspect that your technique with that scope is the problem. .

Stock weld and head position are just as critical with a scope as with irons. If you have a high mount and don't have a good check rest your eye position changes each shot.

Might be the scope too. I had have scopes where the blasted reticles moved or bounced around. I would make a sight change and I could watch the bullets just sort of walk on the target until the reticle shot it self in in the new location.

Then if the scope mount or scope wobble a bit your group sizes will open out. If the scope slides in the mount, and that is not obvious, groups will go over all the place

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I note you list only one load. Usually, it takes a little fiddling to find the exact load a particular rifle likes.

1. Make sure the rifle is performing -- does G11 shoot better than your reloads? That will tell you it's the loads, not the rifle that's at fault. If it is the rifle, tune rifle and scope as discussed in earlier posts.

2. Load up some rounds with different charges -- start low and slowly work up. Be sure you label each round. I'd start at 38 grains, and work up in half-grain intervals. If your load is below max, you might continue up to max in half-grain intervals. Fire all this ammo in a single group, noting each bullet impact. You will probably find some holes close together, others farther apart. Note the sequence. Let's say rounds of 40, 40.5 and 41 grains group fairly closely, others hit farther out -- this tells you the "sweet spot" is around 40.5 grains. (You may want to repeat this several times, to be sure it isn't a fluke.)

3. After developing a charge as above, repeat the process -- this time with rounds loaded to the "sweet spot" but with different seathing depths. Find the "sweet spot" for seating depth and you should have a pretty accurate load.

 

[Sunray]

"...What am I doing wrong?..." You're expecting a scope to improve accuracy. They don't. They only allow you to see the target better.
Like Vern says, the rifle has to shoot well in the first place. Not all milsurps will. Nor does a match bullet guarantee better accuracy. Your rifle just may not like them. Try a different bullet and primer.

 

[NuJudge]

On the Swiss Rifles website there are 3 pages on handloading this caliber, and one on accurizing.

The accurizing tips on Swiss Rifles run contrary to what the Swiss military apparently did, which was to tighten everything. I follow the tips on the Swiss Rifles page, and it improves the shooting of my rifles, enough for gold medals at Camp Perry in the Vintage Military match.

A lot of people reloading this caliber like 4064, but I prefer something in the 4831 class. I like Remington 165gr bulk softpoints. I'm using Swiss Berdan primers with PMC/Murom Berdan primers, which seem to give gentler ignition than any Boxer primers.

CDD

 

[fatelk]

You are not alone.

I've messed around with loading for my K31, with mediocre results. I'll have to check out some of these links.

I wondered if maybe I had a bad rifle somehow, as I keep reading about the superb accuracy of the K31 but mine wouldn't do better than about 3" at 100 yards.

I use reformed .284 brass and gave up on full-length sizing after the first forming. The problem for me was that the chamber dimensions are so much larger than what the LEE dies size the brass down to, excessively working the brass. I bought an RCBS neck-size die and it even full-length sizes the brass, though only slightly.

 

[dcloco]

I use 284 Win brass but Redding dies. These are the ONLY dies on the market that are sized for the K31 chamber.

 

[Hawk]

Not specifically related to reloading, but my K-31s prefer GP-11 to Norma.

GP-11 isn't your grandpa's mil surp - it's match grade stuff. Swissrifles.com notes that competitive shooters use GP-11.

You just picked a tough round to improve on. Check out the site. You can get there.

 

[lonniemike]

Expo, do check out the swissrifles.com site. And speaking of experimenting with more than one load, have you tried Pierre's pet load(for 173 grain pulled US match bullets) of 39grains of IMR 4064 out for groups with your 175 grain pills? best-o-luck

 

[CMcDermott]

GP11 ammo is really hard to duplicate, definitely use the information on the swiss rifles website and forums. One of the big problems is that the bullet used in GP11 has a very different shape from the standard 308 bullets available to reloaders. It's much closer to some of the VLD designs from Berger than anything available from Sierra or Speer. This makes getting a similar jump to the lands impossible at the same OAL. Keep adjusting the OAL of your loads once you get something that shoots ok and you may be surprised at the difference it makes in your groups.

 

[Exposure]

Holy cow! I had no idea what a wealth of knowledge you guys were on the k31!

Thanks to all for the information and links, in particular the swissrifles.com forum. I have done a lot of reading there the last few days.

To answer a few questions:

The scope is mounted with a St. Marie style mount, AIM surplus sells it, it came supplied with relatively robust rings. After well over 150 rounds neither the mount or rings have yet to come loose. I really like the mount.

The scope could possibly be the problem but I just don't feel that is where my problems are coming from. It is a Tasco (don't laugh!) Varmint model, 2.5-10X It gets excellent reviews and I have been happy with it. I'll get to the reason for believing it is not the scope further down.

I actually tried many different handload recipes. I should have listed that in the original post, sorry! I began using IMR 3031 at 38 grains and worked my way up to 42.5 grains before giving up on it altogether. It would never group better than 4 inches. I then switched to IMR 4064 starting at 38 grains as well. These loads originally grouped at 5 inches and each time I increased the powder charge the group would shrink a bit, not much, but a bit. The big surprise though was when I went to the 42 grain loads. The group size dropped about an inch on that load. I know at this point I am headed in the right direction but I am closing in on a maximum load, I prefer to shoot lighter loads to save wear and tear on the gun, scope, and shooter! But the fact that the groups kept shrinking as I increased powder charge leads me to believe the scope is NOT the problem.

I am embarrased to admit that I have no GP11 to compare to right now. I know a local gunshop has some in stock so I am going to pick up 50 rounds and use those as a base line for my next batch of loads. I didn't realize that GP11 was such good ammo, knowing that I feel a bit better about almost replicating its performance. I will chrono it and then see how it comares to my loads. Just for reference my 2.625" group averaged 2447 FPS with only a 6 FPS spread over 5 rounds, I will say I was pleased with that result!

I actually have one last round of GP11 that I use to take dimensions for my reloads. In looking at it I noticed the ogive is way down the bullet and towards the case. I think I will try some of the Berger VLD's in addition to adjusting OAL.

Thanks again to everyone, I really appreciate it.

My first oder of business will be the accurizing work and then it will be back to range to see what happens!

I'll keep you folks updated.

 

[Navy joe]

I have only loaded a little for my K-31 clan with okay results, but I tell you, I was confounded on the OAL to get something that worked. As mentioned the GP-11 bullet has an odd profile and you will probably use something with a lot different OAL to get your bullet off the lands.
Interesting about the Redding dies, looks like I have something else to buy.

 

[bltmonty]

I would also suggest going to swissrifles.com. It helped me a lot

I glass bedded the action and the part of the barrel at the end where the barrel bands are.

I trimmed the necks of my prvi privazin brass. I also annealed the prvi brass, which is a little stiff. The throat is very short in the K31, but I try to seat my bullet just off the rifling.

I used RCBS full length dies. 48 grains of H4350 and Remington 180 grain PSPCL. It goes about 2500 fps--a mild load. I think the 178 grain factory ammo goes around 2650

One inch groups are fairly easy with this load. I could do better with a high end boattail bullet, I think. The rifling turn rate is around 1 in 8", so 180 grain bullet is probably the best for it.

I also have the St. Marie scope mounts and a cheap NCSTAR scope. It's my son's deer and hog rifle. Heavy but very accurate with mild recoil. Plus, my son loves its history--and the names of the two soldiers who carried it under the buttstock plate.

hope this helps

Barry

 

[dcloco]

Send me some of your brass. I will neck size 5 and FL size 5 for you and send them back (or 10/20 of each). Using Redding dies.

But, need fired brass from your rifle.

 

[Cosmoline]

Ditto going to the swiss rifle forum for advice. It's notoriously difficult to duplicate GP11, let alone improve upon it. That's the down side of a Swiss rifle. It's easy for me to make 54R handloads that will give better groups out of a Mosin than crappy ball. But GP11 is so finely tuned to those rifles and so well made you'll be hard pressed to beat it. Though it's by no means impossible. IMR may not be the best powder.

 

[Hawk]

A former co-worker, who shares the blame for starting me in reloading, showed me how easy it was for him to get better accuracy from 30.06 by doing little else than paying attention.

The summer we got a couple K-31s, I caught him doing this: :banghead:

I believe he's matched GP-11 and heard he's bettered it, but I haven't been in touch with him in a long time. He used to lurk here. He's got all my empty Norma brass.

...Rusty B. ...
You there? Check in, guy.


Edited to add: Eric (Ammoman) still has some GP-11.

 

[Brainstem]

Graf and Sons had Privi Partisan brass in stock the other day, less than $40.00 per hundred.

I'm still using .284 winchester brass opened up to .30 cal. I get 3/4" groups regularly at 100M following the reloading instructions on Swissrifles.com.

 

[silascobb]

I'm getting 1.5 inch groups from GP11 with the same scope mount and a cheap Bushnell scope, so I'm thinking it could be your rifle. Fire off some GP11 and see what your groups are like.

 

[jwr_747]

K-31

do visit the Swiss rifle web site.tweak your rifle as described,I spent several months and a few thousand rounds of handloads to get "my best" load. for serious work,my loads are rifle specific,different throat lengths,call for different bullet seating depths. my best load,for my scoped K-31 is a 150gr.Rem.PSP bullet over 38.5gr. of IMR 4064.but as mentioned,the GP-11 ammo is hard to beat. jwr