K31 or Lee Enfield Mk 1

[Jack Package]

Title says it I am about to sell my Xbox One for 500 and will probably get a new rifle instead. I have narrowed it down to either the Swiss K31 or a Lee-Enfield Mk1. What do you guys think is the best. I know the Swiss K31 is incredibly accurate will be in great condition, then there is the Lee-Enfield mk1. Which has a great action, 10 round mag capacity and is also very accurate. Note I dont want a No.4 Lee Enfield, just don't like them for some reason. So which one will be easier to get ammo for, parts, and accessories (bayonet, sling, bandoliers, strippers etc...). Any responses would be appreciated.

 

[rondog]

Either. I have two K31's and love them. Also have an Enfield No.1 Mk.III and love it. But don't discount the No.4 Mk.1 rifles, I have two of those and love them too. Might want to consider ammo availability too. The surplus Swiss GP11 is excellent ammo, but it won't be around forever. Surplus .303 is already nearly nonexistent.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I love my K-31's and would give the accuracy edge to them. However, I also like my Enfield's, although I would agree with Rondog about looking into the Enfield No. 4 instead of the No. 1. I have three No. 4's and a couple of No. 5's and enjoy shooting all of them. Whichever you get will be good.

 

[DougW]

i am very biased toward the Enfield, owning 14. Surplus ammo is down to junk, so new factory or reloading is the best source. I don't own a K31, but they are very accurate and sweet rifles (I work for s Swiss company, so I know about the quality of the K31).

 

[Edarnold]

One big advantage for the K31 is that a very secure scope mount that requires no modification of the rifle is currently available in the US, the stock sights on the rifle are also first rate. For more information log on to SwissRifles.com website. I would suggest trying Simpsons Ltd. for really good K31s, they were importing straight from Switzerland years before the surplus guys popularized these rifles, their descriptions of the individual rifles they have in stock are very complete and accurate.

Consider that for either rifle, you will likely end up hand loading your ammunition as surplus ammo becomes unavailable. The K31 uses standard .308 diameter bullets, and brass life is very good, the round is also quite flexible for building lower velocity ammo for 100yd. Target work. The .303 uses .311 diameter bullets with a much more limited range of types available, also since this is not that popular a caliber you may find it hard to find bullets in stock. Brass is another problem, case life can be quite short unless resizing is carefully controlled, and again this is not a common in-stock item.

As far as accessories, the bayonet for the the K31 shows up regularly, the 'stripper' clips may take some searching but are available, slings and cartridge pouches show up as well. The Swiss government auctions off surplus military equipment on a regular basis, so the accessories come on the market in spurts.

 

[krinko]

So, it's between this---



And this---



Go with the K31.
There are lots of British No1 MkIII rifles around in the US, but your chances of stumbling into a decent one are extremely remote. They are hard to learn---that is to say, it is hard to know a good one when you see it and getting a bad one to shoot well usually involves disappointment .
A K31 will generally shoot very well, with little or no extra attention and most of the rifles are much younger than the Enfields, thus in better condition.

Almost the best 100 yard target I ever shot with a No1 MkIII*---



This is the rifle that threw that round. Looks innocent, doesn't it?



Looks are deceiving.
-----krinko

 

[eastbank]

i like both rifles, but for me it is the mk4*1. i reload for all my milsurps and have been able to find cases for all at flea markets and gunshows, but the 303,s are easier to find than the 7.55 swiss and i never could work the K-31 very fast. the mk4*1 is like a timex watch and the K-31 is like a rollex watch, they both will tell time. so its your choice. eastbank.

 

[bannockburn]

Jack Package

I kind of think along the same lines as krinko. Between the two I would probably go with the K31 as well. Condition wise they're typically in very good shape and I believe the accuracy potential is much higher with a K31 versus that of the average No.1 Mk.III. Let us know what you eventually decide to get and post photos of your new rifle.

 

[Mikee Loxxer]

Go with the K-31. Accuracy is good, surplus ammo is currently available and it will be easier to reload for in the long run. Additionally you'll be hard pressed to find one that won't be a good shooter.

 

[velocette]

The differences between the two are significant.
The K31 is beautiful example of engineering, metal working and Swiss precision in manufacturing. Excellent triggers and excellent accuracy. Their stocks are generally not in good condition, but their metal is almost universally in excellent condition. The K31 rifles were NOT used with corrosive ammunition and their recommended method of cleaning was with brushes and patchs pulled through the bore with a cord. Not a cleaning rod from the muzzle so their bores are usually excellent.
The British SMLE rifles (aka smelly) are reliable, moderately accurate, use a rear locking bolt that cocks on closing which is very fast but hard on brass. Their construction is British military utilitarian.
Choice between the two? Do you want a work of art of do you want a workhorse.

 

[Comrade Mike]

Get the K31. The Enfield will leave you wanting more in the accuracy department and its a relatively weak design. Not a fan

 

[boom boom]

Get the K31 while you can--supplies versus the No.1 Mk 3 Enfield are much more limited. Prices have about doubled from 5-6 years ago. Second, Swiss GP11 surplus ammo is incredibly accurate as well for the K31 and is readily available (but is Berdan primed ). Prvi Partisan though sells the 7.5 Swiss in Boxer primed reloadable cases at a reasonable cost along with British .303.

I like Enfields and own several MK4 No. 1 as well as the K31 and K11, but you have to be very careful as above posters noted as the No. 1 chambers and bore size wander all over the place especially for WWI era weapons. Slugging the barrel is a must and oversized chambers stress the brass unless you neck size. Correcting headspace on the Enfield is a pain for the No. 1 as well. The K31 on the other hand usually has been kept up with the occasional cracked stock and Swiss ammo has been non-corrosive for a lot longer than .303 ammo.

If you are so inclined, you can later find a bunch of semi-sporter Enfield No. 1 rifles without a cutdown barrel and the original sights, use the coin style headspace gages carefully to cull out one with headspace issues, and then get the stock and its hardware separately etc. as possible--a lot of drill rifle stocks are now floating around with the hardware from time to time if you don't mind the worn look on many. BTW, the Aussies hung onto their MK1 manufacturing at Lithgow during WWII which are reputed to be good shooters.

If you are really committed, you can get the tools and build one from parts with the associated problems of stock fitting, headspacing, small part fitting, and other issues. BUT, if you do it right, you can get a very accurate shooter rifle and learn a lot about them as well. My milsurp addiction started with a Mk4 No. 1 Enfield Semi sporter Maltby and then it has gone downhill from there. I will probably get a No. 1 at some point but am busy other milsurp projects right now. Trying to finish them before adding new challenges.

 

[Sunray]

Excessively large pictures aside(1344 and 1237 x 400 is too big.), like Krinko says, decent condition No. 1's are getting scarce. And there are some things about Lee-Enfield No.1 Mk. III's you must remember. Applies to No. 4 Rifles too.
Thousands of 'em have been assembled out of parts bins with zero QC. So you must either check or get proof of good headspace if you buy one. Fixing bad headspace is easy, except you need a handful of bolt heads, that are unmarked, to try with proper headspace gauges until you find one that gives safe headspace. Nothing else like bits of tape, rubber rings, resizing differently nor anything else, fixes bad headspace. So it's easy, but expensive. Bolt heads run $14.15 each for a stripped one from Gun Parts.
Plus you need to slug the barrel as they can measure from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315" it's shot out, but you might find a bigger mold if you want to cast. Factory ammo and bullets for reloading are either .311" or .312". Not unsafe to use 'em in larger barrels, but accuracy is poor.
Accuracy is about the barrel and the ammo. Even though the rear sight isn't the greatest. Using good ammo, out of a correct diameter barrel a No. 1 will shoot.

 

[Jaymo]

I like my #4s better than my #1.
The #4s that have the micrometer adjustable rear sight are my preference simply because the sight is fantastic.
Even without that sight, I strongly prefer the #4.

I also like the K31.
It's a very nice rifle.

The SMLE has the advantage of being a thoroughly battle-tested and proven design.

Surplus ammo may be hard to find, but Prvi Partisan ammo is still very affordable.

Your intended purpose will also come into play.

My SMLEs will be interested to learn that they are supposed to be weak and inaccurate. (dripping with sarcasm)
What a load of fecal matter.
It's true that the real locking design is not as rigid as a front locker. No argument there.

However, the Brit mil spec ammo is loaded a good bit hotter than US sporting ammo and hasn't broken any SMLE I've owned.
The fact that both the #1 (in the Indidan Ishapore version) and the #4 design were both later chambered in 7.62 NATO throws a wrench into the "weak" thing.

My personal favorite of the smellies is the #4 Mk2.
I grabbed 2 of them in 1994, because it was the only way I knew of to buy a new, unissued smelly.
They have been wonderful shooters. However, they do show a preference for Federal, Hornady, and Winchester ammo.
They don't seem to like Remington Core-Lokt.
They like S&B well enough. Haven't tried PPU yet, but I plan on getting a bunch of it, since the good surplus ammo is scarce.(But, that's what fun shows are for)

 

[krinko]

"Excessively large pictures aside(1344 and 1237 x 400 is too big.)..."

O'Heir, is that you? Not still using the kerosene powered Commodore you had back in '98, are you?

The photos are posted through Picture Trail and on other sites they come out smaller, sometimes with an option to "view full size"---don't know why they would appear bigger here.



-----krinko

*"Thousands of 'em have been assembled out of parts bins with zero QC."---O'Heir 1998 ad infinitum.

 

[Jaymo]

Hey, I like kerosene. Well, just a mite. For flavoring, ya know?
Nice Smelly.

I say the solution is to buy both a Smelly and a K31.

BTW, krinko, NICE #4. Is that a Mk1, or a Mk1*?

I've always loved the Smellies, so I'm a bit biased.
I'm also heavily biased toward Swede Mausers, especially Husqvarna M38s.
But, that's me. Others may not like these rifles as much as I do and they are entitled to their wrong opinions.

 

[krinko]

" Is that a Mk1, or a Mk1*? "

It's a 1942 3L series Long Branch No 4 Mk I*---N^Z marked and spent WW2 sitting in a crate in New Zealand.
Glad you like it.
-----krinko

 

[Swampman]

I like both rifles, but for practicality, I'd say go with the K31.

#1- Excellent surplus ammo is available for the Swiss rifles, the only surplus .303 I've seen lately has been Pakistani and "excellent" it's not.

#2- K31's are still available directly from depot storage, they've been properly maintained and it's very unlikely that "Bubba" has fired his "special" high power reloads in one coming direct from Switzerland. With a #1 that's been floating around for decades that sort of abuse is a lot more likely.

#3- As already pointed out, K31's are cheap and easy to scope without altering the rifle, #1's, not so much.

#4- It's very likely that the K31 you buy will have been issued to one soldier, who probably kept it from the time of his enlistment until he mustered out of the reserves decades later. That sort of arrangement tends to mean better care for a weapon than one that stays with a unit as soldiers cycle through.
In addition, Swiss soldiers were financially liable for their weapons. If a soldier "egged" the muzzle of his rifle by improper cleaning, HE had to pay to get It rebarreled when it didn't pass inspection.

#5- For me at least, brass from a K31 will last longer than it will in any .303 British military rifle and that includes my pristine Pattern 14 with its front locking Mauser action. There's something to be said for straighter, more parallel case walls.

#6- I'll admit that those who claim the Enfield is "battle tested" have a point. I don't think any of the Swiss straight pulls would have been as reliable as an Enfield in muddy trench warfare conditions.

If you anticipate a lot of that sort of thing in your future, the #1 is probably a better choice due to its looser tolerances, better primary extraction and tough, iron ingot construction.

If you just want to enjoy shooting nice groups at the range and maybe mount a scope for deer season, go with the K31.

Like I said, PRACTICALITY...

 

[desidog]

Well, I'd put it this way:

You WILL end up with both rifles in a few years time...if not sooner. So i'd look out for both for sale, and buy a good clean example of either, whichever you run into first. Then start saving up again.

One enabling element that lead to my collection multiplying was getting a Curio + Relic 03FFL... if you don't have one, I'd recommend it because you can get the rifle sent to your door, cutting out transfer fees elsewhere, and that's money you can spend on ammo and more guns...

 

[eastbank]

with chargers the enfield loads just as quick as a k-31 and holds more rounds, i found the straite pull actions just don,t have the extraction power as the camming action of the bolt actions. to me the k-31,s are like the german lugers, the german grunts took to the p-38 over the lugers like ducks to water. i would like to see a test with the k-31 going thru a field test with a common grunt in the mud and mire like real combat, my bet is there would be a lot of trading for a mk4*1. tho the magizines were not meant to be changed out in the mk4*1 i have seen pictures of limey grunts with extra ones stuffed into fatigue pockets on the days following D-day. i own both rifles and enjoy shooting both(i reload to). if i was to pick one to use for a shtf rifle, i think you know which one i,d be carrying. eastbank.

 

[Trent]

Toss my hat in for the "K31!!!" crowd.

Love that dang rifle.

ETA: I own both, and someday, you probably will too lol! Once that antique bug bites, it is hard habit to quit.

 

[barnbwt]

"with chargers the enfield loads just as quick as a k-31"
Enfield uses Mauser-style chargers, right? Maybe if you had very well-maintained clips and right-size ammo, I'd believe the Mauser clips could load nearly as fast --at which point the extra capacity would make the Enfield the winner. But the K31 clips and light follower spring supply barely any resistance when loading, and the fitted clips sit very securely in the receiver opening; perfect harmony

The Enfield's supposed to shoot quicker due to its curved bolt putting your wigglers nearer the trigger after cocking --I always thought that was the real magic to their speed. I imagine tying the K31's cocking piece to your thumb with some string would have a similar benefit

"i would like to see a test with the k-31 going thru a field test with a common grunt in the mud and mire like real combat"
Why would that be any more realistic a test for the K31, than a clean & sterile & well-supplied environment would be for an Enfield? The blood & guts trench warfare was not the type of battle the Swiss had planned for or designed their armies to fight in. They would be purely defensive snipers using fixed, pre-determined positions for the most part, when not relocating to engage/disengage. They also had a ton of mines/zero'ed artillery to prevent the need to counter large numbers of fast-moving forces with dug in infantry scattered over large areas.

Whether their strategy would have worked against an invasion may be open for debate, but to say the Swiss gear needed or should have matched the performance of something built for different purposes is very unfair. Why wasn't the Enfield made of top-quality steels, machining processes, quality controls, with simpler ergonomics, and maintaining possibly the highest accuracy of any standard-issue rifle of the era?* Because tactics didn't dictate the need for those things . Both rifles do what they were intended to do extremely well.

TCB

*The K31 in combination with GP11 ammo of the day is ludicrously accurate for an iron-sighted standard rifle. I don't know how comparable the Swede's 8mm was to GP11, but unless it was even better than their excellent Mausers, those vaunted tack drivers probably weren't as accurate as the Swiss guns in practice. Even today with match ammo it's nearly a wash.

 

[sayak]

Who the hell wants a rifle that has a mini beer keg and a hypodermic needle hoop hooked to the bolt?
The Enfield is a majestic looking and very efficient firearm. Battle proven in two major wars... unlike the Swiss.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

This is sure heading down the low road fast.......

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by: eastbank
would like to see a test with the k-31 going thru a field test with a common grunt in the mud and mire like real combat, my bet is there would be a lot of trading for a mk4*1.....if i was to pick one to use for a shtf rifle, i think you know which one i,d be carrying. eastbank.

Seriously?

Originally posted by: Trent
Once that antique bug bites, it is hard habit to quit.

Probably a more realistic outlook.

to me the k-31,s are like the german lugers, the german grunts took to the p-38 over the lugers like ducks to water

And have you compared current prices of Lugers vs P-38's?

(Hint: The difference ISNT based on which one is more reliable and efficient as a front line combat weapon)

My personal belief is that most people buying weapons that are old enough to collect Social Security aren't basing their decisions on which one will work best for them in a SHTF situation.