K31 or Lee Enfield Mk 1

[barnbwt]

"Who the hell wants a rifle that has a mini beer keg and a hypodermic needle hoop hooked to the bolt?"
Sounds like a party with a butt stock, if you ask me . Taken further, I also imagine the Swiss reserve guys had more fun during the war than the Enfielders

TCB

 

[chicharrones]

My personal belief is that most people buying weapons that are old enough to collect Social Security aren't basing their decisions on which one will work best for them in a SHTF situation.

I'm pretty sure that when the time comes that I'm drawing Social Security, my days of firing steel butt plate centerfire rifles will be over.

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by barnbwt
*The K31 in combination with GP11 ammo of the day is ludicrously accurate for an iron-sighted standard rifle. I don't know how comparable the Swede's 8mm was to GP11, but unless it was even better than their excellent Mausers, those vaunted tack drivers probably weren't as accurate as the Swiss guns in practice. Even today with match ammo it's nearly a wash.

I don't think the 8mm Swedish M40 rifle has ever been particularly renowned for it's accuracy. The rifles were just German made Kar. 98k's rebarreled to the Bofors 8x63mm machine gun round. It was never very widely issued, being mainly used by heavy machine gun troops in fortified positions in order to maintain ammunition commonality.

You may have the 8x63mm confused with the 6.5x55 used in the Model 94 and 38 carbines, plus the Model 96 and 41 rifles, all based on the 1894 small ring Mauser action.

These were all very well made weapons, some of the earlier ones were actually made in Germany since at the time Sweden didn't have the capacity to produce them fast enough. It was however, stipulated in the production contracts that only Swedish steel could be used to make Swedish rifles.

All of the Swedish 6.5 bolt guns were very well built with closer tolerances than was the norm for military rifles of the time. That, combined with the light recoil and good intrinsic accuracy of the 6.5x55 round, made them excellent shooters both then and now.

I'd imagine the M40 rifles were probably high quality rifles as well and I imagine that any cartridge designed by Bofors was probably pretty accurate. Despite all that, the M40 wasn't known for being particularly precise because it definitely lacked one quality that really helps accuracy, low recoil.
The 8x63 was the same length as our 30-06, but the case was larger in diameter and held about 15 percent more powder.
The 30-06 M2 ball cartridge used in WWII had about 2500 foot pounds of muzzle energy, the 8x63 had over 3000.

Not a lot of fun in a turn bolt rifle with a steel butt plate that only weighed about 5 ounces more than the 6.5x55 M96!

 

[barnbwt]

Derp on the 6.5x55, that's what I meant. It is also very accurate as a round due its long bullet (just like GP11), but I don't know how its quality/consistency compared at the time. As I recall, the service record was pretty short on most of those, too.

TCB

 

[tark]

The K-31 is so damn pretty you almost have to buy one. Incredibly accurate, although I have fired better groups with Springfields, an Argentine mauser (1909) An 03A3 and a beat up Ross Mk lll with a pristine bore. The surplus ammo on the market right now is match grade. Very high end match grade, I am told by the K-31 guys, and if you pull apart ten rounds of the stuff and check weights and measures it obviously is very high quality.

But it also has a very high end price, and I don't know of any alternatives. I don't see any commercial hunting type ammo being loaded by anyone. Not all of us like to reload.

The Enfield? Well, what can you say about an Enfield that isn't obvious just by looking at it? It's not the prettiest girl at the party. The early Enfields, mine was made in 1905, are almost finished as nicely as the K-31, but they are few and far between. They are not as accurate as a K-31, but they are accurate enough to hit an enemy soldier out to a fair distance away. Also, most of the early Enfields are missing parts, usually the magazine cutoff, and the volley sights.

But, in a reversal of the K-31s situation, Good surplus ammo is almost non existent while commercial ammo is available with a little looking.

Enfield actions can be quite smooth, or quite rough. If possible, shoot the gun first. K-31s are smooth, for a straight-pull, and lightning fast, but K-31 experts have told me not to yank too hard on the op-rod. Avoid any cowboy stunts, like showing your buddies how fast you can empty a straight pulls magazine. I suppose a little practice will produce a nice, smooth motion.

I would grab the K-31 first, because good one's seem to be available right now at very reasonable prices, considering the high quality of the product.
Finding a decent Enfield with a decent bore can be a long process.

 

[Trent]

One of our forum members (Ian @ Forgotten weapons) did a 2-gun match with a Swiss K31.

I fast forwarded a bit to a reload...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOEJ7hiS7mQ&list=UUrfKGpvbEQXcbe68dzXgJuA&t=99

Also note the ground in front of the targets as that round impacts with great authority..

 

[dprice3844444]

made me tired just watching him. lost 5 pounds. that's a lotta work.

 

[Trent]

Yeah he stays pretty fit, he has a lot of good videos up. Some of them are really dang good too. He did a BAR vs. FG 42 in a 2 gun match once. That one is real entertaining to watch. Should be able to find it under his videos there on youtube.

 

[barnbwt]

There's new production ammo made by PPU as well as Hornady (maybe others?) in soft point. At 1$ a round vs 50-60 cents for each shot of more accurate GP11, there's very little incentive to buy much, though (not much incentive to reload, either, since proper VLD bullets like the GP11 are also expensive, and a true match rifle can be made more accurate using a new action --the only profit for reloaders is really in milsurp competitions)

TCB

 

[sawdeanz]

After reading through this thread I feel like I should have gotten a K31.
But I'm also happy with my .308 Ishapore which is closest in form and function to the enfield mk1. Ammo availability and price was second in priority only to having a cool combat bolt rifle so that's what steered me to it, though it suffers in collectability, build quality and perhaps accuracy (I'm not really a good enough of a shot to tell). Stripper clips are also super easy to find (m14 style). Depending on your priorities it may or may not be a consideration.

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by : tark
I don't see any commercial hunting type ammo being loaded by anyone.

Prvi Partizan
www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?ite...5+Swiss+174gr+Soft+Point+20rd+Box&groupid=738

Wolf
www.midwayusa.com/product/241368/wo...ain-soft-point-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Hornady
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/6895

Norma
www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/40190

In addition to the above, Indep of Portugal made some before Prvi Partizan ran them out of the market.

RUAG Ammotec of Switzerland is allegedly gearing up to produce Boxer primed hunting ammo for the US market as well.

If you "don't see any" commercial 7.5 Swiss hunting ammunition available, you're not looking very hard.

 

[tark]

Thank you Swampman! Now I know where to get some soft points for my K-31

 

[Swampman]

@tark
My son used the Prvi 174 grain soft point on a BIG (at least by East Texas standards) Wisconsin buck last season and the bullet performed very well. Complete pass-through on a broadside shot with totally destroyed lungs and a 20 yard blood trail with a stone dead buck at the end.

I was sceptical about performance on game with the Prvi ammo (we usually use handloads with Partitions, you never know when you might see Hogzilla's cousin), but the Prvi bullet performed as well as a Remington Cor Loct. My son was impressed and from his description, so was I.

 

[Edarnold]

"RUAG Ammotec of Switzerland is allegedly gearing up to produce Boxer primed hunting ammo for the US market as well."

RUAG has been supplying GP11 to the Swiss military for awhile. Five or six years ago they made a run of boxer-primed 7.5x55 brass for the SwissRifles group, I'm still working my way through the 480 cases I bought: it's really beautiful stuff. So they have experience making this round in boxer-primed form, they already make a commercial line of sporting ammunition for the European market.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 11, 2014, at 11:03 PM, "THR" <[email protected]> wrote:

RUAG Ammotec of Switzerland is allegedly gearing up to produce Boxer primed hunting ammo for the US market as well.

 

[tark]

Thanks for the info, Swampman! I'm too old and infirm to hunt these days, but I am always trying to get as many dffrerent types and as much ammo for all my milsurps, as I can.

It looks like Remington has done a large run of 8mm Mauser (their usual sissy load) 7mm and 303 British. All of a sudden it is showing up on the shelves at Gander Mtn.