keith level .38 spec loads

[kernal_panic]

i have read about keith's ".38" load of 13.5 grns of 2400 and his 173 grn swc. i have 5000 speer +p brass on the way, i would like to develop a near .357 mag load for use in my m27 and winchester m94ae. i have the following powders:

aa2
aa7
aa9
hp38
h110
231

any suggestions or do i need to go buy 2400?

 

[stans]

I would suggest you buy a 357 Magnum revolver and some 357 Magnum brass, but maybe that is just me. I see no reason to push the 38 Special to short magnum ballistics in this day and age.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

As a disclaimer: DO NOT assume the "kieth 38" is safe in your gun.

By your powder list I am going to assume you are not a novice loader.

This being the case I would reccomend you use AA7. Its burn rate is similar to 2400. With the limited case capacity of the 38, with any powder slower than that, you're likely to run out of room.

And remember: Take baby steps when you're pushing things.

Once again I'm assuming you're an experienced loader, have access to a chrono and know how to map a load, know how to recognize pressure signs, would be careful not to load this ammo in a 38 revolver, etc.

 

[Old Fuff]

Also keep in mind that some of Keith's *original* loads were developed using balloon head cases, not the solid head ones we have today. Solid head cases have smaller capacities, so a load that is appropriate in a balloon head case may result in excessive pressures in a newer case. Therefore once you pick a powder (including 2400) be guided by loading data in current handbooks,

 

[kernal_panic]

Thanks for the info on aa#7. i've got 2 pounds of it and have been trying to figure out what to do with it.

i own 3 .357 revolvers and 1 .357 leveraction but i have over 1500 .38 cases a couple of hundred .357 cases and i just bought 5000 .38 cases over the internet. i am more or less looking into over pressure .38 loads as a midway load between standred saami spec .38 and full blown .357 so i can get used to recoil. i'll start with aa7 and leave the aa9 and h110 for the magnum cases.

oh and yes i have a chronograph!

 

[stans]

Be careful, don't let any of those hot loads find their way into a 38 revolver. You might want to consider selling those 38 cases and investing in some magnum cases.

 

[JohnK]

I've used Keiths load in my 4" GP100 many times. In my gun it does 1,313 fps. Well above many full power factory 357's today, not really a mid range load.

If you're determined to do it, among the powders you listed I would use H110 or AA #9 which is right next to 2400 on many (but not all) burn rate charts. I would use Lil'Gun to try duplicating this load, but that's not among the powders you listed.

In the same gun using the same bullet but 357 magnum brass 15.0gr of H110 did 1,307 fps. You'll need less powder to do that in 38 Special brass of course but it at least gives you a reference point.

 

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

.357 means use .357 Brass

If you wish injuries work a .38 up to .357 performance.

I have .357 revolvers and rifles and I would not even shoot plus p's in my Smith 60 and 66 as I want them to stay in excellent condition for my lifetime. Yes I can carry some hotter loads in them but if it comes to a self defense situation the aggressor would be within 7 -8 yards and my accurately placed 38 shots will do the job adaquately. If someone is running away explain to the judge why you shot them in the back or with a super dooper hot handload specifically designed to kill or maim.

I will practice with my handloads and factory ammo, carry only factory ammo and if I am ever confronted I can permanently remove the problem in a legally acceptable manner.

I have hot loads for my ranch .357 rifles mainly for range on coyotes on the next hill. I converted a single shot and 1892 Winchesters for my kids to have fun shooting up commercial reloading rejects that were not worth pulling toe bullets from like cases that split, or case mouths folded over or damages in some fashion.

For loads specifically I magic markered them red or another bright color to sho family they were for rifles only.

I will let others test the established limits. I accept where they are now for my 38 and 357s and can also use my .41 or .45's if the situation warrants.

I have a Star reloader for .45 Long Colt that can also be used for the .454 Casull ammo. Caution is a good virtue for me and my family members.

 

[Clark]

What is a 38 Special load and what is a 357 mag load overlap in the world of load books, but the 357 mag is generally higher pressure, but not always.

Many 357 mag pistols are 38 special pistol designs that the factory reamed out the chambers .15" further. The factory had the engineers that could tell which 38 special revolver designs had lots of safety margin, but we consumers lack the education to figure that out.

1) "Speer 3" 38 Sp 160 gr. cast 10.5 gr. 2400
2) "Speer 3" 357 mag 160 gr. cast 14 gr. 2400
3) "Speer 8" 38 sp 160 gr. SP 11 gr. 2400
4) "Speer 8" 38 sp 2" revolver loads 158 gr. sp 10.5 gr. 2400
5) "Speer 8" 357 mag 158 gr. SP 15.5 gr. 2400
6) "Midway Loadmap" 357 mag 160 gr. Speer SP 10.9 gr. 2400

In this sample, 38 sp ranges from 10.4 to 11 gr.
In this sample, 357 m ranges from 10.9 to 15.5 gr.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

 

[Gewehr98]

Not to muddy things further...

But there's the earlier .38/44 loads in the big N-Frames, precursors to the .357 Magnum.

And I'd wager a few .38 Special +P loads cross that boundary into the .357 realm, too.

 

[RON in PA]

AA#7 's burning rate is NOT similar to 2400. #7 was developed for the 9 mm Luger cartridge. AA#9 is more like 2400.

 

[birdman]

If I were going to use Keith type .38 loads in a .357 I'd do what Skeeter Skelton use to do and search for a cast bullet with 2 lube grooves; crimp in the first lube groove; then it could safely be loaded to the higher performance levels with no danger of firing in a standard .38 spcl. This would make use of your extra brass without damaging yourself or your gun.
When you need to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Notice I said "similar" not "next to" in burning rate chart. You are correct on it being a little faster, as it is closer to blue dot than 2400. But it is still a powder well suited for high pressure loads in small to medium cases. And a high pressure 38 is not too far from a 9mm load.

Given the limited case capacity of the 38 using a slightly faster powder than 2400 works better. That's "slightly faster", not to be confused with bullseye, red dot, unique, etc.

AA#7 works very well in 38+P+ loads, just don't be stupid, it's still a 38, not a 357 or 41 mag. Don't expect it to do things that it's just not capable of.

However caution is still the word of the day if you want to push limits in your own gun. This is not territory for novices.

 

[Clark]

I have used hot loads of LIL'GUN in 38 specials and thought I was getting more than 357 mag power.
I was getting that kind of recoil and noise, but no improvment on the chrono.

I have used 2400 in 38 Specials and worked up to stiff loads, and a cylinder shot loose.

After all those failures, I am back where I started:

The Hodgdon load as published for 357 mag 158 gr:
18 gr, 1577 fps [10" barrel], 25.8 cup.
That is the best 38 sp +P++ load I know of.
The efficiency is there, the power, and the pressure is low.
The other Hodgdon 357 mag load are up to 42.6k cup, and no higher in velocity.

I also like to do it with a 158 gr LSWC bullet, as well as the 158 gr XTP.

Sometimes the simple solution is the best, use the Hodgdon load.

 

[JohnK]

The Hodgdon load as published for 357 mag 158 gr:
18 gr, 1577 fps [10" barrel], 25.8 cup.

I don't know what the pressure is but that load does an honest 1,500 fps from my 5.5" Ruger with a common 158gr LSWC. It's a good load and doesn't feel as hot as the numbers suggest even in a GP100.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Ditto the Lil-gun loads. My Ruger Sec.-6 4" bbl is giving 1,450fps with the 18.0gr of Lil-gun and 158gr XTP.

Regarding the .38spl. loads that Kernal asked regarding........

Stick with the +P loads in the manuals. The 5.5gr-5.8gr load of AA#5 is particulary good.

The .38spl with a 158gr bullet at 900fps is an excellent load in any regard. However, it is very bullet design dependant.

The cast or swaged bullets are better as they will expand generally better, and all things equal, will run ~75fps faster than a jacketed bullet.

For deeper penetration use a "Cow-boy" lead flat nose bullet. It gives good impact shock, and penetrates essentially as well as the Round Nose, but is more likely to break bones than glance around them.

For best performance in my experience, use the HP-SWC lead bullets. These are the best all around bullets in the .38.

I always load the .38's to .38spl performance and .357 to around 1,200fps or higher. That way by looking at case and bullet, I know what it is, and what it's for. I really like 12.0gr of Alliant 2400 with a 160gr LFN (Lee mould) in .357 cases. Recoil is very manageable, and velocity runs around 1,200fps. Another good load is 6.8gr of Unique (new) or 6.8gr of UNIVERSAL-Clays. This gives around 1,250fps with a 150gr HP-SWC-GC bullet I cast. Drops deer all out of proportion to "blast" and recoil. I prefer it to the 158gr XTP/ Lil-gun load.


Elmer's load was an answer to the problem he had in a remote area, in a different time.............. (ie: no FedEx, UPS, and U.S. postal service dropped off deliveries at Post Office, about a days horse back ride away when Keith was loading those loads.) Things got better after WW-II !!
1. .38 cases were "available"; .357's scarce as hen's teeth.
2. Elmer was a "Pioneer", in more than one regard. We don't have to duplicate his "mistakes" today.
3. Elmer quite often "needed" more than just .38 level ammo, and used the only method readily available to meet his need. He shared his experience for those of THAT time that might have had the same problem.
4. Elmer used the components HE had. 2400, primers, cases, and bullets he used are not the same today. Even using the same moulds, you would have to buy the special alloy blends he used to duplicate the bullets. He usually used a somewhat softer alloy than commonly available today.

Speer lists some excellent reduced .357 loads that run around 1,000fps. Use these, or some of AA's listed reduced loads. They have already done the experimenting for you.

A trip to a local range will probably turn up more discarded .357 brass than Elmer ever owned in his lifetime. I suggest you use them. It only takes about 50rds of "his" loads in a K-frame S&W .38spl to cause a "Tack driving- match pistol" to turn into a "wobbly-loose DOG", needing the cylinder end shake corrected, and the barrel set back to correct for frame stretch.

"Ask me how I know" !!!!!!!!!! BTDT. The load? 5.2gr of "New" Unique with a 158gr cast HP-SWC.

Save the "heat" for a .357 with .357 brass. Save your .38 and yourself some grief.

 

[kernal_panic]

I don't know what the pressure is but that load does an honest 1,500 fps from my 5.5" Ruger with a common 158gr LSWC. It's a good load and doesn't feel as hot as the numbers suggest even in a GP100.

i'll try that load. i'll see if i can scrounge a bottle of lilgun at the show this weekend. btw what bullet you shooting? i'm casting lyman 358156gt (long gas check shank version).

 

[JohnK]

I've used that load with a 173gr Keith from Dry Creek and the typical bevel base 158gr LSWC that pretty much every commercial caster sells. I have no idea what mold it is, in either case it's been a plain base not gas check bullet. I have some of them on hand, I just haven't gotten around to testing them out yet.

 

[HankB]

kernal_panic, that Lyman 358156 mold you've got is based on a Ray Thompson design. It's a gas-checked semi wadcutter made with a single lube groove and two crimping grooves.

The second groove was specifically intended to allow one to load .357-class loads in .38 Special brass by seating the bullet farther out. This extra length prevented use in "most" .38 Special revolvers, and allowed for more powder volume, to keep pressures lower than they'd be if you put a full .357 load in a .38 case and seated the bullet normally.

 

[Poohgyrr]

Thanks for the info everyone. I know I've been thinking of the articles Skeeter wrote on this.

 

[Dave R]

2. Elmer was a "Pioneer", in more than one regard. We don't have to duplicate his "mistakes" today.

Quite right. Remember that Keith blew up a few guns. We don't want to do the same.