Stand_Watie
Member
How timely as the Big Town show is running this weekend. That's where I usually go, and I've bought at least one well priced pistol from Bachman's there.
I'll wear my Molan Labe hat, sing out if you see me
Kel-Tec P32 or P3AT?
- Thread starter Stand_Watie
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How timely as the Big Town show is running this weekend. That's where I usually go, and I've bought at least one well priced pistol from Bachman's there.
I'll wear my Molan Labe hat, sing out if you see me
It's called the P11 and they still make it. It's reliable and easy to shoot.
Kel-Tec quit making the P40 not because it was wrecking the gun, but because some owners couldn't figure out how to shoot it properly and were sending them in for repair when there was nothing wrong with the gun. Kel-Tec simply got tired of dealing with inexperienced shooters buying a gun that was too much for them and then blaming the gun for their lack of ability to operate it properly. So to end the hassles they discontinued the gun. I've got a P40, it's one of my daily carry guns and has several thousand rounds through it. It's reliable and durable. It is however, a real handful and not recommended for an inexperienced shooter or someone who tends to "limp wrist" thier guns. But for an experienced shootist who can deal with the recoil, and who's willing to do a little tuning and tweaking, it can reward you with a very reliable and powerful gun in a pretty small package. I really like mine.
Stand_Watie
Member
Well I bought a p3at today at the gun show NIB for 229.
I put 3 boxes of Winchester UMC 95 grain metal jackets through it this afternoon. It is a snappy little recoiler, I think the chief problem I was having is the grip is so small that it was pinching the first pads of my ring and middle fingers a little, also the checkering is very hard and a bit sharp (and I have calloused hands, I'd hate to think what it might feel like to somebody with soft hands). I corrected that by wearing a glove.
Well I'm a little concerned about my new gun. I had 3 failure to fires that were light strikes (they fired on the second go round) and 3 failure to feeds where the bullet caught on the feed ramp going into the barrel out of the 150 rounds I fired. I'd like to know if the problem is me, the ammo, or the gun.
It is a fun little gun, and put the bullets more or less where I aimed them, despite almost nonexistent sights (I was shooting 2.5 to 3 inch groups at 20 feet, with clusters of two and three bullet holes touching each other), which is as good as I shoot my Bersa which has a lot better sights and more barrel.
Also, my wife came home while I was shooting and said "Oh that's cute, I want one, it'll go nice in my little purse pocket". I told her I thought it would be too much for her to handle and she picked it up and fired two shots and said "oh no, that's fine". Texas gals, you gotta love 'em
I put 3 boxes of Winchester UMC 95 grain metal jackets through it this afternoon. It is a snappy little recoiler, I think the chief problem I was having is the grip is so small that it was pinching the first pads of my ring and middle fingers a little, also the checkering is very hard and a bit sharp (and I have calloused hands, I'd hate to think what it might feel like to somebody with soft hands). I corrected that by wearing a glove.
Well I'm a little concerned about my new gun. I had 3 failure to fires that were light strikes (they fired on the second go round) and 3 failure to feeds where the bullet caught on the feed ramp going into the barrel out of the 150 rounds I fired. I'd like to know if the problem is me, the ammo, or the gun.
It is a fun little gun, and put the bullets more or less where I aimed them, despite almost nonexistent sights (I was shooting 2.5 to 3 inch groups at 20 feet, with clusters of two and three bullet holes touching each other), which is as good as I shoot my Bersa which has a lot better sights and more barrel.
Also, my wife came home while I was shooting and said "Oh that's cute, I want one, it'll go nice in my little purse pocket". I told her I thought it would be too much for her to handle and she picked it up and fired two shots and said "oh no, that's fine". Texas gals, you gotta love 'em
denfoote
Member
Sounds to me like you had better figure on spending another $229!!!!
Hey, you are getting off cheap!!
I had to buy another G26 after my wife confiscated the one I had!!!
It seems like you are gunna have to do the 'ol fluff and buff treatment!!
I think the directions are on the above mentioned KTOG site.
I like both guns, but the P32 has a potential rim lock issue where the P-3AT does not.
The satisfying thump that you get when touching off a .380 compared to the gentle pop of a .32 settled it for me. I went for the chromed slide upgrade over a standard black frame, and I carry it in an Uncle Mikes #1 pocket holster loaded with 102gr Golden Sabres. I would prefer a slide hold open after the last round, if only for range shooting, but otherwise I value this gun like no other.
The P-3AT is the gun that people carry who don't really like carrying a gun, and that would be me.
The satisfying thump that you get when touching off a .380 compared to the gentle pop of a .32 settled it for me. I went for the chromed slide upgrade over a standard black frame, and I carry it in an Uncle Mikes #1 pocket holster loaded with 102gr Golden Sabres. I would prefer a slide hold open after the last round, if only for range shooting, but otherwise I value this gun like no other.
The P-3AT is the gun that people carry who don't really like carrying a gun, and that would be me.
Wilson 17&26
Member
Sounds like you hit the same Bachman table I did. I haven’t had time to do a Fluff & Buff plus lub, so I haven’t made it to the range. My First Generation P-3AT magazines are an exact match. I have ten (8 with finger extensions), so I wont be out that extra expense. I find the finger extensions help keep me from limpwristing during long range sessions. Tolerances on First Generation P-3AT are fairly tight and I usually clean and lub after 50 rounds to prevent jams. I don’t see this as a problem, as most belly-gun fights don’t last more than 30 or 40 roundsStand Watie said:
Light strikes with P-3ATs & P-32s can be caused by not letting the trigger fully reset. The slide only half-c0cks these mouseguns and a full trigger pull is required to have sufficient energy to ignite the primer. There is a web page on cutting coils from the trigger spring to get around this “full pull thing†but I’m not trying it.
My wife thinks all P-3ATs should be hard chrome like the one below, so I may be the only one that shoots the new ugly black one
Stand_Watie
Member
It wouldn't surprise me if that is exactly the problem with my light strikes. Every one of them was when I was firing rapidly, and I'm not used to the looong trigger pull of the double action only. I'm going to try your suggestion out with very careful single shots, and I'll report back if that turns out to be the problem. I got the black one too. They didn't have the chrome finish in p3at.
ADVANTAGE P-32:
*Slightly smaller
*One more round
*Less recoil
Advantage P-3AT:
*No Rimlock issues with JHP rounds
*Theoretical edge in stopping power
To me, the whole idea of a pocket pistol is being able to pull it out by surprise and give the bad guy a third nostril. If the gunfight gets any more intense than you're in over your head, and I highly doubt a .380 Kel-Tec will offer an advantage. Since I don't believe JHP ammo even does anything out of such short barrels I doubt there's any real difference in stopping power since the bullets will likely act as FMJ rounds anyway. With that, I prefer the exta round and lower recoil and chose to keep my P-32 instead of trading up.
*Slightly smaller
*One more round
*Less recoil
Advantage P-3AT:
*No Rimlock issues with JHP rounds
*Theoretical edge in stopping power
To me, the whole idea of a pocket pistol is being able to pull it out by surprise and give the bad guy a third nostril. If the gunfight gets any more intense than you're in over your head, and I highly doubt a .380 Kel-Tec will offer an advantage. Since I don't believe JHP ammo even does anything out of such short barrels I doubt there's any real difference in stopping power since the bullets will likely act as FMJ rounds anyway. With that, I prefer the exta round and lower recoil and chose to keep my P-32 instead of trading up.
280PLUS
Member
Found the article.
Shooting Times Oct '97 "Beretta's Tomcat" J. B Wood Pg. 33
"Sometime ago in my "Gunsmith" column I remarked that the .32 ACP cartridge is a better personal defense cartridge than the .380 ACP. A flurry of letters followed from readers who were divided between agreement and puzzlement.
As most readers will know, many other firearms writers have for many years pronounced the .380 ACP to be the absolute minimum caliber for serious social situations. I have always disagreed with this reasoning for several reasons. And there others who feel the way I do. For instance the Japanese police have carried .32ACP as their official sidearms for years; in fact, SIGARMS' new Model P232 was developed especially for that force. But there is also interest in the .32 ACP as a self defense roundin this country too. Ever since Beretta introduced it's .32 ACP Tomcat, dealers just haven't been able to keep them in stock!
My reasons fo choosing the .32 ACP over the .380 ACP are as follows: First, the .32 ACP round is inherently more accurate than the .380 round. Second, the felt recoil is lighter, giving more accurate delivery and faster on target follow up shots. And third the magazine capacity is usually greater by at least one round. On top of all that, the pistol can be made smaller and lighter, making it easier for legally armed citizens to carry a 32.ACP p[istol daily.And most importantly, there are excellent high performance .32 Auto cartridges, such as Winchester's 60 grain Silver-tip, that improve the .32's capability for defensive applications."
"Larry Seecamp realized all this in 1985 when he reworked his little DAO .25 ACP pistol to handle the Winchester Silvertip hollowpoint."
"Since about 1985, somewhere around 20,000 of the elegant little Seecamp pistols have been made, never enough to meet the demand."
The rest goes on to tell you what a great gun the Tomcat is. The Kel-tec Is much lighter and less bulky.
Shooting Times Oct '97 "Beretta's Tomcat" J. B Wood Pg. 33
"Sometime ago in my "Gunsmith" column I remarked that the .32 ACP cartridge is a better personal defense cartridge than the .380 ACP. A flurry of letters followed from readers who were divided between agreement and puzzlement.
As most readers will know, many other firearms writers have for many years pronounced the .380 ACP to be the absolute minimum caliber for serious social situations. I have always disagreed with this reasoning for several reasons. And there others who feel the way I do. For instance the Japanese police have carried .32ACP as their official sidearms for years; in fact, SIGARMS' new Model P232 was developed especially for that force. But there is also interest in the .32 ACP as a self defense roundin this country too. Ever since Beretta introduced it's .32 ACP Tomcat, dealers just haven't been able to keep them in stock!
My reasons fo choosing the .32 ACP over the .380 ACP are as follows: First, the .32 ACP round is inherently more accurate than the .380 round. Second, the felt recoil is lighter, giving more accurate delivery and faster on target follow up shots. And third the magazine capacity is usually greater by at least one round. On top of all that, the pistol can be made smaller and lighter, making it easier for legally armed citizens to carry a 32.ACP p[istol daily.And most importantly, there are excellent high performance .32 Auto cartridges, such as Winchester's 60 grain Silver-tip, that improve the .32's capability for defensive applications."
"Larry Seecamp realized all this in 1985 when he reworked his little DAO .25 ACP pistol to handle the Winchester Silvertip hollowpoint."
"Since about 1985, somewhere around 20,000 of the elegant little Seecamp pistols have been made, never enough to meet the demand."
The rest goes on to tell you what a great gun the Tomcat is. The Kel-tec Is much lighter and less bulky.
If J.B. Wood had done his homework he would have found in already weak loads, the 380 has much better penetration than the 32 round.
As for accuracy, I find the P-3AT to be more accurate than the P-32. That could just be me, but it was enough for me to decide to sell both of my P-32s and get a second P-3AT.
As for accuracy, I find the P-3AT to be more accurate than the P-32. That could just be me, but it was enough for me to decide to sell both of my P-32s and get a second P-3AT.
280PLUS
Member
I thought he was putting himself on thin ice with the accuracy point. Where is his proof / data?
He has other points that are fairly legitimate though.
Just try to remember, I'm not trying to say his word is gospel or anything, I don't even know who he is, it's just that it's an opinion that's out there.
Naturally a .380 is going to penetrate further but if it's not penetrating something vital or not hitting at all in the followups because the recoil is having an effect on recovery, what good is it?
He has other points that are fairly legitimate though.
Just try to remember, I'm not trying to say his word is gospel or anything, I don't even know who he is, it's just that it's an opinion that's out there.
Naturally a .380 is going to penetrate further but if it's not penetrating something vital or not hitting at all in the followups because the recoil is having an effect on recovery, what good is it?
I have had no problem with recoil with my P-3ATs, but my son did complain about the pistol moving around in his hand.
I have small hands allowing me to get a pretty good grip, but my son who is much stronger than I, has larger beefier hands and apparently does not get as good a grip as I do.
I guess there is something about hand size and control with the P-3AT!
I have small hands allowing me to get a pretty good grip, but my son who is much stronger than I, has larger beefier hands and apparently does not get as good a grip as I do.
I guess there is something about hand size and control with the P-3AT!
280PLUS
Member
Heh,
Talk about girls and the word "cute". A friend of mine thats a girl says "Oh, it's so CUTE!" about my P32. Then she fired it, once, and said, "Here, take this back!"
LOL...
Talk about girls and the word "cute". A friend of mine thats a girl says "Oh, it's so CUTE!" about my P32. Then she fired it, once, and said, "Here, take this back!"
LOL...
Wilson 17&26
Member
280PLUS said:
Chances are, it was just the wrong color or didn’t have a NAA finger extension
280PLUS
Member
Oh, you know her too?
While 'm at it, I pulled this from The Seecamp .32 ammo thread just FYI
http://www.seecamp.com/ammunition.htm
Which sheds a little updated light on my J.B. Wood post here.
While 'm at it, I pulled this from The Seecamp .32 ammo thread just FYI
http://www.seecamp.com/ammunition.htm
Which sheds a little updated light on my J.B. Wood post here.
edison
Member
Wilson,
I just checked my new P-3AT, it does have the so-called Frankenstein bolt. What are supposed to be the differences/improvements of this model?
I, too, found the wee beastie a bit snappy. After about four mags I put it up for the day and went back to my Bersa 380.
On the other hand, it is a pleasure to carry. Even with a no-name nylon holster, it fits just about any pocket. No way would I carry one of these pistols without the holster.
I found it surprisingly accurate for the vestigal sights on this puppy.
edison
I just checked my new P-3AT, it does have the so-called Frankenstein bolt. What are supposed to be the differences/improvements of this model?
I, too, found the wee beastie a bit snappy. After about four mags I put it up for the day and went back to my Bersa 380.
On the other hand, it is a pleasure to carry. Even with a no-name nylon holster, it fits just about any pocket. No way would I carry one of these pistols without the holster.
I found it surprisingly accurate for the vestigal sights on this puppy.
edison
Wilson 17&26
Member
The Second Generation P-3AT is squarer, a bit heavier and has fewer parts. The new shape is a result of changing from hex bar steel stock to round bar steel stock. The additional weight may help a few folks with limpwristing. Fewer parts will be a benefit not only for factory assembly but amateur gunsmiths. The barrel was also redesigned to fit the squarer slide and the base of the feed ramp is now crescent shaped instead on straight across. This should reduce the smilies that concern some (not me) with deformed bullets.
My SG P-3AT performed flawlessly as have my previous FG P-3ATs. Other than absence or paint on the sights of the SG, I couldn’t tell the difference while shooting at the range today. I put 48 rounds of Sellier & Bellot and 18 rounds of Santa Barbara (22 yr. old hot stuff) through the SG. I have 12 magazines (I have a bunch of P-3ATs) and all but two have finger extensions. Without thinking I loaded a stock (no extension) magazine with Santa Barbara. I had to adjust my grip between each round due to the jumping. I was very glad I put a Band-Aid on my trigger finger before I started, as I fired over 150 rounds through my Kel-Tec mouseguns today.
My SG P-3AT performed flawlessly as have my previous FG P-3ATs. Other than absence or paint on the sights of the SG, I couldn’t tell the difference while shooting at the range today. I put 48 rounds of Sellier & Bellot and 18 rounds of Santa Barbara (22 yr. old hot stuff) through the SG. I have 12 magazines (I have a bunch of P-3ATs) and all but two have finger extensions. Without thinking I loaded a stock (no extension) magazine with Santa Barbara. I had to adjust my grip between each round due to the jumping. I was very glad I put a Band-Aid on my trigger finger before I started, as I fired over 150 rounds through my Kel-Tec mouseguns today.
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