Kel Tec rant

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If KT were to sell right now to one of the big guys it would come with a massive price tag. Despite some of the opinions expressed here they have a good name in the gun business and, as mentioned, they sell quickly when they are available.

People are standing in line to buy the PMR-30 and some of the other guns that they have brought out in the past few years. The PF-9 and P-3AT are EDC guns for a large number of people. I don't understand their business philosophy nor do I understand people bashing them for their philosophy. Maybe they run it like a car company? Make some prototypes and show them off but don't ever produce enough, if any, to satisfy demand. Why doesn't Tesla make 3 million cars this year? They are in high demand and command a premium price.
 
I always attributed this to George being an inventor.

He likes to design and invent new guns - it is his passion.

Manufacturing is tedious, you need those number-crunching guys to figure NPV. ROI, optimum production runs and all that.

I think George doesn't want to mess with it, he just wants to design new guns.
 
I can understand the "sell one less" argument, but if you could sell twice as much for 90% of the profit each, your profits go up. I think if they fixed their QC issues and ramped up production, they would be taken a lot more serious.
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Do their profits go up enough to pay for the capital equipment? Do they saturate their market? How much of their demand is driven by people wanting things that are hard to get?

When the guy walking the mohawk guy around said "We have no bottlenecks," that means to me they have a well balanced system. In other words they can't add just one machine, and get anywhere with increasing their production, because therest of the system can't do anything with the extra input.

If you are interested in learning more about bottlenecks in manufacturing read"It's Not Luck" by Eli Goldratt. It's only 200 hundredish pages if I recall correctly, and covers extensively why simply adding a machine often causes production to go down.

They may also may be just not interested in growing in size. The tour guide said they had about 200 folks. Management requirements grow exponentially with company size starting around 50-60 employees. At 200 people you are looking at a size where you will have to add an entire level of hierarchy. That's the size when management requirements (and therefore overhead labor rates) start to really explode. I completely understand not wanting to grow the point where you are considering hiring MBAs. It really changes the character of the company and workplace.
 
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Seems like every year Kel-Tec comes out with a new wizz-bang pitter patter whachamacalit tarnation Sam tootin gun of some kind, like the new 5.56mm bullpup they have out now.

What I think they need to do is focus on increasing manufacturing of the products they already have. I would be first in line to buy a Sub 2K 9mm G19 carbine, that is if I could FIND one! I'm also in the market for a P11 and maybe even a P32.
 
A few years ago, Kel-Tec had an "OK" reputation. But now almost half of their guns go back, or have problems that people either throw them in the back of the safe and don't use or sell, trade, whatever. If they concentrated on just a limited production gun until they got their act back together, they could turn it around, but when people are waiting 2 years for a gun that is being sold at gun shows for almost twice what it retails for, and their other gun has almost a 50% failure rate, they aren't going to go anyware.
Maybe a larger company should buy them, and they could go back to a small innovative shop again under a new name.
And to those who argue that there is nothing wrong with their guns, just read the booklet, they all need a fluff and buff, their forum is full of work around's, and a simple Google of Keltec problems ,will yield hundreds of similar posts, much more than any other gun.
Good idea, poor execution, it's that simple. The guns are unfinished.
Sell get a ton of money and go back to designing new innovative guns, and let a large manufacturer work out the kinks in production. Finished.
 
But now almost half of their guns go back, or have problems that people either throw them in the back of the safe and don't use or sell, trade, whatever.
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I am hoping you could cite your source for this info. Thanks!
 
I just Googled a few gun companies that popped into my head. Glock, Ruger, Smith, etc.

Every single one of them has hundreds of reported problems from firing pins to safeties to feed ramps to slides and on and on. EVERY ONE of them. In actuality of the 6 companies I Googled in a couple of minutes, Kel Tec had the lowest number of "hits" by a wide margin.
Now this is in no way an accurate assessment as I didn't go through the 4.5 million hits on Glock or the 14.5 million hits on Colt. I'm sure some of those were about Colt Mccoy or some guy named Glock.
Saying that 50% of their guns go back is just that, saying it. Maybe Remington could buy them and make all the problems disappear.
 
I have no problem with another company buying keltec if it means productions can meet demand. It's not like quality could get any worse!
 
I've had 7 Taurus with zero problems
I've had 3 Kel-Tecs with zero problems
Both get bashed incessantly in various gun forums
YMMV
 
I'll revisit the video, I just remember a bunch of people in street clothes, banging away on guns with hammers.
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There are plenty of perfectly serviceable firearms, that are well over 100 years old, that were created by guys banging away with hammers.
 
Ed Ames said:
Yep, like the stainless one sleeping in my gunsafe. Or like the blued one. :D

I said I had seen two complete rifles. I didn't say I left them in the stores. :evil:

As far as gunbroker, yeah...you can get anything on gunbroker if you are willing to pay $600 for a $400 rifle. :(
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Ummm, even WHOLESALE they were more than $400, when you could get them.
 
gym,

It's interesting you choose the Yankee Marshal to influence your thought process and even more interesting that you expect him to influence ours.

His little dolls really leave an impression though.:rolleyes:
 
Yankee Marshall has more than a passing fancy in guns. I know nothing about him other than his video caught my eye one day when doing research on how many actual problems there were with these particular guns.
He seems to have made a ton of videos, and seems to call a spade a spade, and I give him the same weight as anyone else on the internet, since his experience sums up most complaints about the gun, I chose to utilize his as an example.
I don't see how he could benefit by knocking any particular company as I don't believe he lies about anything. He does have strong opinions, and from watching a few of his videos a good sense of humor.
He states the facts as he sees them and has been honest IMO, as far as his experiences with anything he reviews. Thus I don't see anything wrong with his analogy. There are many other's who say the same thing but few who are as concise as he, therefore I chose his.
When you say "ours" that is not true at all, I don't expect him to influence anyone who chooses not to be influenced. It's a quest for information I seek, not a mind altering experience.
Since it's a discussion forum, for those who choose to ask for help guidance, or just choose to chew the fat, I don't think there is anything wrong with his analogy in this case. As mentioned several times, you may get a gun that works flawlessly, in which case "great for you", but as he mentions, with such a high failure rate, it is a very bad choice for a gun which you defend your life with. I feel strongly about that, and if you were to show me that any of the guns I had, were in a class that had more than a few percent 2-3%, failures, I would indeed immediately stop carrying that gun, and you would indeed be doing me a service for which I would eternally be in your debt, and I do not joke about that. This is a serious thing, I do not take it lightly, and gun carrying by many people new to the concept, has caused many poor decisions which were made because of a lack of information, thus I continue the unpopular task of telling an owner of a particular sub par weapon, that it should be re-thought, based on numbers.
After a time it's like beating a dead horse, and I have no illusions about having anyone change teams if they choose not to, nor do I like the feeling of bearing bad news to anyone who made a purchase, yet if one person is influenced and looks into it on their own,then it's worth the effort, I will end my part here now, as it has worn thin at this stage, If you wish to continue that of course is your prerogative, thank you for the opportunity.
I digress
 
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gym said:
Here is what I think.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqtxH2mYIKA, you don't see that on any other popular gun.
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You are simply wrong.

Google: glock garbage video

You will find people saying that glocks are a -9 on a scale of 1-10, and similar.

You are wrong about how you are saving people from sub par guns, too. Wrong to the point where you have lost touch with reality e.g. your claims of 50% failure rates. You aren't giving good advice.

Ummm, even WHOLESALE they were more than $400, when you could get them.
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I paid under $400 for my blued, and a bit more for my stainless. Both were new.
 
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If you wish to continue that of course is your prerogative, thank you for the opportunity.
I digress
 
Dusty14u, he's made that "fifty percent go back" assertion three times already in recent days, and I already asked him to provide the source. Good luck with that.
 
I preface this by saying that I'm not informed on actual numbers, but understanding economics I'm laying out a guess.

I see keltec guns new in box for 259 up to 309 for handguns, and around 600 for long guns. So average price will be around 350 per unit since they sell more of the concealed carry guns than anything else. Assuming a 5% profit margin due to a heavily competed market your looking at about $18 on each gun. Of this $18 at least half goes back into r&d so we are back to $9. The shop is in Florida and let's assume their gunsmiths make $20 an hour. Each gun returned takes time to disassemble, troubleshoot, repair, reassemble, repackage, document, etc. let's say 2 hours per. Add $20 in parts. So each repair costs them $60 when they are making $9 on the gun. If they have a 50-50 return rate then they expect to LOSE $21 per unit shipped. Add to this the bad press they would earn and they are out of business in a month or so and the keltec name would never have been known.

Your making flawed statements repeatedly and bashing a company who is actually leading the industry in design at this point. Quit it.

Realistically a manufacturer of this type would be operating on smaller profit due to things I didn't bring into play such as advertising, overhead, legal fees, etc. realistically a 1% failure would probably close a manufacturers doors. These guys are here to stay, and whether you want to spread the news that your panties are in a wad towards them doesn't matter. Wild claims such as this discredit you as a poster and serve no purpose. Get some sources for some real data then come back and play.
 
I can only find the numbers for 2011 as far as Kel Tec production.

Source-http://www.thefreelibrary.com/U.S.+firearms+industry+today%3A+history+repeats+itself+with+dramatic...-a0342766513

So they produced 90,000 handguns and approx 15,000 rifles. A 50% failure would result in 45,000 handguns being sent back for warrantee work. If they worked 5 business days a week and there are 52 weeks in a year that comes out to 173 handguns per day.

If each handgun required 1/2 an hour to fix it would take 87 hours per day to fix all of them per day. It would take 11 employees at 8 hrs per day to fix handguns out of a 200 employee companies.

I am a Design Engineer and have worked mainly in shipbuilding most of my life. Mostly nuclear subs and aircraft carriers. I now work for a small manufacturing firm servicing major appliance manufactures and I know that with the numbers above K-T could not have survived 1 yr in business .

I am not sure where other people here get their numbers but I would venture to say they are pulled from some places I would rather not mention. Just saying.
 
I was never talking about all their guns, so it's your math that's flawed. Just their pf9. And handguns. But primarily the PF9, Never said rifles or shotguns. If you read the dam thing you would know that. Words like "carry", and defend your life with should have clued you in if you couldn't watch the video. And what makes you think that people who by a 200 dollar gun, go to a gunsmith, Daa.
Also your math is flawed Kentucky, their cost is probably under 100 per gun, your cost should be about 219. There goes your theory
Most people who buy a Keltec, buy the pistol, if you looked anyware over the years "even here" you would see the highest rate of failure is on their guns, period, end of story, you want one, go buy one, just wear body armor when you carry it.
They are giving them away on Slickguns, as low as 209 a few weeks ago. You want to carry a 200 dollar gun to protect your life and family, go right ahead.
When a manufacturer sells something for 50 cents it usually costs him under 10 cents to make, the rest goes for advertising marketing distribution, Graphics, packaging. When we sold mail order products the rule of thumb was if you could produce it for 1/6 of the retail price, you had a winner.
 
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