Kel-Tec : What's the Latest Opinion ?

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That isn't Kel Tec's fault. It is greedy dealers jacking the price up $400 that are to blame.
 
As a point of reference, I have also owned two Ruger LCPs. Both of them worked perfectly. It's not like building a small .380 that actually works is rocket science.
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Seems odd that a direct copy of a P3AT would just blow it out of the water in reliability :rolleyes:.

The P11 wasn't known for being awesome but with some polishing work can be 100%(I wouldn't buy one).

My PF9 went for thousands of rounds.
My sub 2k went about the same.
My P3AT has less(probably around 700). Has only had issues with steel cased .380. I of course clean them well and I polished the feed ramps on my P3AT but it shot fine before and after.

Other opinions favor the above as opposed to your experience but I figure you must be the most unlucky guy in the world when it comes to keltec products.
 
Seems odd that a direct copy of a P3AT would just blow it out of the water in reliability
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It's not a direct copy. There are a number of minor differences, and the details may account for the "better" performance some see. (Things like the extractor being installed differently, and a lot of minor changes.) The Ruger is certainly a more visually refined weapon -- and I give Ruger high marks on that account. All of their newer guns seem to have gone through the industrial design office to make them look better.

That said, I doubt that Ruger would have come up with a similar design had K-T not gone there first. It was an innovative design, and Ruger hasn't added much.

I've owned the P3AT and LCP, and also now own a PF9. Haven't had a chance to handle the LC9. I think the Khar PM9, P9 and CM9 are all better guns -- and have a CM9 to use in the near future. (The PF-9 is still my current carry gun, but I will eventually move to the CM9, once I've used it more.)
 
Kel-Tec : What's the Latest Opinion ?
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To me, based on my one experience with a P-11, it's not easy to come up with a clear opinion of Keltec, at least the model I owned.
The gun is inexpensive and unrefined, but, in some ways, a diamond in the rough. When I first bought it:

-The stiff trigger pull hurt my finger, in part because the molding flashing hadn't been smoothed out.

-The feed ramp had to be polished before it would even chamber a round.

-The recoil kept me from shooting it accurately


If I had kept the gun as it came from the factory, I would've called it an inadequate weapon. My S&W Sigma, which only cost 50 bucks more, isn't perfect, but I've never had to modify it to make it a usable pistol. It works adequately as is.

BUT, Once the trigger pull loosened up with use, once I smoothed out the surfaces with sand paper or compound, once I used aftermarket mags that extended the capacity and grip length...it was a darn fine concealable pistol. Very reliable with a variety of ammo, and I could even start shooting it accurately.

I wish that was the happy ending to the story, but it isn't...within 1000 rounds:

- the slide catch broke.

- the ejector broke

- the assembly pin needed to be replaced.

- 2 or 3 springs wore out.

The Keltec P-11 wasn't the giant killing little pistol that put all my Rugers to shame, but it could've been. Keltec needs to improve quality, extend durability, add another 90 bucks to the price and make it something people want to buy rather than something people can afford to buy. I've got mine for sale right now, and will be using my Ruger sr9c in it's place.
 
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I have had a KT .380 for about 2 years now. Not that bad accuracy wise. It did have an issue that I had to send it back for repairs. IIRC, I was shooting and the trigger broke. You could pull it, but it would not move hammer. Haven't had any problems with it since I have had it back. I carry it every day.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
It's not a direct copy. There are a number of minor differences, and the details may account for the "better" performance some see. (Things like the extractor being installed differently, and a lot of minor changes.) The Ruger is certainly a more visually refined weapon -- and I give Ruger high marks on that account. All of their newer guns seem to have gone through the industrial design office to make them look better.

That said, I doubt that Ruger would have come up with a similar design had K-T not gone there first. It was an innovative design, and Ruger hasn't added much.

I've owned the P3AT and LCP, and also now own a PF9. Haven't had a chance to handle the LC9. I think the Khar PM9, P9 and CM9 are all better guns -- and have a CM9 to use in the near future. (The PF-9 is still my current carry gun, but I will eventually move to the CM9, once I've used it more.)
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I really like my Ruger LCP. Doesn't jam and the recoil isn't bad, unless you shoot more than 30 rounds at the range. I've only put 50 rounds through mine, but all went well. Basically, I trust it, based on my experience with all my other Ruger semi-autos. I don't view it as a throw away that will only last a few thousand rounds. I didn't have near as much confidence in my KT.

Keep in mind, the LCP is, for me, a 6 yard gun. Beyond that range, it's accuracy will vary from shooter to shooter. So it won't get even a few thousand rounds on it, but if I give it to my kids, I have the piece of mind that it will function properly indefinitely with moderate use.
 
wow6599 said:
The only models I occasionally see are the P-11 and P-3AT......the rest are like hens teeth.


What? You think other companies want to design products that a vast majority want, but only produce enough to fill a fraction of the public demand?
Basic economics - the market system is driven by supply and demand. There is a demand, but no supply. Mr. Kellgren has had Kel-Tec operating for more than 20 years, and Grendel before that. I don't get it........
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Basic supply and demand? They are widely available on Gunbroker. It would take me less than a minute to find any model you are looking for on sale. I see the KSG's for sale on Armslist every day. Supply meet demand. Must be very successful if they are designing something no one else has come up with instead of the 50th company making a 1911 and sticking their logo on it. Or an AR15. Or copying a design that someone originated. Instead of being leading edge most companies are just following someone elses lead.

I waited to buy my S2K until I found one at the price I was willing to pay. I have seen plenty of people that had better connections get the first run of the KSG's and RFB's and paid below MSRP. Sooner or later the opportunity will present itself and what
I am willing to pay and I will purchase .
 
I have a PF9 and it sees 98% of my carry time, despite the fact that I own 8 pistols suitable for CCW. It has the perfect blend of cheap price, decent power, small size and light weight. It's not fun to shoot and the trigger is terrible, so I rarely do and when I do I only shoot 20-30 rounds to make sure it still works. In my opinion the most likely self defense situation will be 10-15 meters or closer so the accuracy is fine for that range and an acceptable trade for the size and weight.

I had a SU-16 for a while. It was ok to shoot. I liked the concept, but it just too flimsy. I ended up selling and buying an AR. Still have the 2x 10 rd mags if anyone wants them.

I would gladly buy a sub2k if I could find one in 9mm that take Beretta mags. I wish they'd make on to take XD mags.

My only other personal experience with them was my wife's friend. I recommended a P3AT or LCP. She bought the P3AT and it was a lemon. Had to send it back twice.
 
I owned a P3-AT and it was utter junk. After firing the round it would somehow push the brass partway down the barrel in a jam. Never seen that sort of failure before or since. Offloaded it to a store I didn't like with a warning to the next owner.
 
Basic supply and demand? They are widely available on Gunbroker. It would take me less than a minute to find any model you are looking for on sale. I see the KSG's for sale on Armslist every day.
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Weak argument. How many HC P-32s can you find me.....one or two, which are probably over MSRP. A PMR-30 under MSRP? What's the going rate for a KSG?

Think before you post...........
 
Went to two LGDs in Chicagoland area to price the P-32, they gave me quotes but both dealers told me they probably would not be able to actually get the gun.
 
I've had 2 P3ATs and a P11. The P3ATs were ok but rough. The P11 spontaneously disassembled itself in my hand while shooting. I bought an LCP for my wife and the LC9 is on my department's list of approved BUGs so I bought one. The build quality on both is far better than the Kel Tec examples. I would probably describe Kel Tecs as being good ideas that fall a bit short in the manufacturing department. Some work great out of the box, most can be made to run well with a little effort, and some just never seem to work out. I've handled a KSG and think it's a neat design but too fragile for actual use. I finally saw a RFB in person and both I and the guy at the store agreed it was a neat concept but neither one of us was all fired up to touch it off knowing that a 308 round would be going off right next to our jaw in a Kel Tec receiver. Someone said they wished that they were a design firm for another manufacturer. I agree wholeheartedly.
 
Kel-Tec, you either like 'em or hate 'em.

I have owned a P11. I own a KSG, a PMR-30, & a SU-16. I still want a SUB-2000. So you can say that I am in the like 'em category.

Kel-Tec is a USA company with an interesting history. They are extremely fiscally conservative. So they can't keep up with the demands for their products.
 
I have a Kel Tec PF9.

I also have a Beretta 92FS, and a 1911. I could choose either of those guns as my home defense gun. I but chose the PF9 even with its reduced capacity.

Why? In all honesty, I'm afraid of using my 1911 for home defense because it has jammed on me, and I'm afraid of using my 92FS for home defense because of the safety.

As an added bonus, the PF9 has a rail for a light/laser. That may seem like a small thing, but I went through Hurricane Sandy without power. After that I decided that light rails are essential.

Now I know that these things are all available for my 1911 and my 92FS, but there is an added bonus - I can carry my Kel Tec as well.

I've never had a jam with my Kel Tec. In fact, I don't think I've ever cleaned it. One part broke on the Kel Tec once - the takedown pin. But that was because I dropped the gun on the basement concrete when putting it back in the safe. Kel Tec sent me a new pin for free.

Now here is the disadvantage - the gun hurts! Shooting it is like hi-fiving a hammer. Maybe that's the reason the Kel Tec has never jammed? I only put 50 rounds through it each range trip when I'm putting 100-150 through my Beretta and 50-100 through my 1911.

Accuracy is minute of bad guy. I'm not going to be shooting IDPA with the thing. It's not for show or for a fun day at the range. It's a tool for stopping someone who wants to hurt me or my family.

I have considered getting rid of the Kel Tec and buying something that is softer shooting like a Sig P239, S&W Shield, Kahr T9, or Springfield XDs. In all honesty, The only real contender is the XDs, because like I said, I believe that home and self defense guns should not have manual safetys and anyone who went through Sandy knows that you need a light.

So in all honestly, I trust the Kel Tec with my life. If I had a very sick child and needed money, my Kel Tec would be the last to go.
 
I'm a lover of the .32 ACP and reload it. I have a pair of Colt 1903 Model M's and a couple of my gun buddies each have P-32's. We shoot them side by side and shoot each others guns and have a great time sharing and observing.

Side by side, 4 guns (my two Colts and 2 P-32's) and four shooters including my Wife, we have tried just about every factory loaded .32 ACP and my hand loads in various bullets and loads. The Colts eat anything, any time. In a few thousand rounds of mixed ammo neither has *ever* had a failure. I like the Kel Tecs but they are the epitome of finicky in the .32 ACP.

S&B, Fiocchi, etc. in hardball they seem to like pretty much. Any kind of a bullet with a flat nose (which is what I use for SD and target reloads) lead or jacketed, hollow points, etc make the P-32 into a jam-o-matic or causes "rim lock" when a round slips in the mag and the rim locks over the next round down. It's pretty much impossible to get them unstuck unless you disassemble the magazine. There is a modification but then you can *only* shoot hollowpoints or shorter OAL rounds and not get hardball into the mags.

I like shooting the little Kel Tec when it shoots but it is too finicky for me. Then again, it costs less than half what I paid for a 85 year old Colt 1903 Model M. I'm told any .32 ACP pistol can get "rim lock" and understanding this we have tried repeatedly to get my Colts to rim lock and it has never happened.

So, I think the Kel Tecs are OK if you accept the fact that they can be finicky or need a little coddling to find what they like to eat and feed them appropriately. They seem well built if not particularly good in the fit and finish dept but they are low end cheap pistols and I think they fill their niche pretty well for what they are. I don't see myself buying/owning one but I'd not discourage someone if they take the time to shoot it (a lot) and experiment with it to make sure it is reliable. I'd suggest this with any SD pistol.

VooDoo
 
Considering the size difference between a Kel-Tec P-32 and a Colt 1903 I think comparing the two may be an apples and oranges exercise. Glad you like your Colt though.

The problem with the bigger companies in the American firearms industry is their extreme conservatism. Oh boy! Remington might introduce another bolt-action rifle next year! Nothing against Remington, but they are pretty much stuck around 1905. For all Kel-tec's faults, they are at least innovative: Almost nobody was making plastic framed concealed carry guns 20 years ago. They came out with bull-pup rifles and shotguns, innovative pistol caliber carbines and a strange .22 mag automatic pistol. They are at least open to new ideas and concepts and willing to take a risk, even if they fail from time-to-time.
 
CornCod said:
They are at least open to new ideas and concepts and willing to take a risk, even if they fail from time-to-time.
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IMHO, Kel Tec is one of the few gun companies that is innovating. Charter Arms gets second prize with their rimless revolvers. Beretta is doing some neat stuff with the ARX-160 if they can ever actually produce the thing. I would certainly call the PX-4 innovative - a polymer pistol with a creampuff recoil - but's it's basically a plastic Cougar. Springfield Armory has a smash-hit with the XDs - that's the one pistol I would consider as a "do it all" if I didn't already own my Kel Tec. But what is it other than a singe-stack CCW piece with a rail? It's a PF-9 a grip safety and less recoil.

You look at Ruger and what do you see? Another Commander-sized 1911. A 10/22 Takedown the likes of which haven't been seen since... oh, the Henry Survival Rifle. Evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Smith? The M&P is a fantastic pistol, but it's still basically just a Glock that fits a human hand.

Rossi had a neat idea with their Wizard, but its sort of like a unicorn - I have no idea if it actually exists.

FN's FiveSeven is a very interesting pistol. And if it didn't shoot $1.00 bills I would buy one.

The small companies have to innovate to sell. I think that's the big reason Glock doesn't have a carbine or single-stack pistol - people will buy them anyway and conform to the awkward design: "Nein! Das Glock est Perfection. Ihre Hand ist das problem!!!"

But, yes. The big companies don't innovate because they don't have too.
 
I carry a P3AT daily and it serves as a pocket gun....other than some initial trigger reset trouble, after approx 200 rounds it has not had any issues and has been completely reliable. It serves as my beater and I don't worry about scratches and/or finish wear. It rides in a Desantis pocket holster. It is certainly not a target shooter but has claimed more than several groundhogs (most running) up to around 20' or 25'.

My PF-9 has never balked at anything I've fed it.
 
I suppose I must be very lucky? I have simply had no problems with Kel-tec products.
PF9 has been 100% out of the box.
Both my Gen1 P32 and Gen2 P32 have been 100% out of the box.
Both of my Gen2 P3ATs have been 100% out of the box.

I own a number of more expensive carry guns, but a KT is usually with me daily.

.
 
Old Guy said:
Most .22 rim fire are ammo sensitive. Not my PMR30. Never miss fired once, the both magazines take the 30 rounds, as advertised, and easy to load.

Trigger is like a international target pistol! Smooth and light, perfect release.

You had better be wearing good ear protectors, she is loud. Muzzle flash? Oh yes. Did I say it weighs nothing? So light, incredible. I think an ideal back pack pistol.

Not sure how the .22mag would perform in a self defense application, as in hits on an assailant at o-dark-30am, but you could get 10 rounds out in about 5 seconds, or less. They quote 1600fps? Seems a bit hi? But not to be sneezed at.

My other KelTec is a PF9? I think, shot it when I got it, does work, but the Glock19 4th Gen is my EDC, and will be. Not to big/heavy, and 16 rounds of 147g Ranger, good to go, spare G17 mag in reserve.
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I'm with Old Guy- my PMR30 just works. Ditto on the trigger, noise and muzzle blast- combining to make it really fun to shoot!
 
Shooting my KSG yesterday evening just before dark.
Using Federal FliteControl 00 Buckshot.

My (operated on) shoulder still can't take the recoil of a stout rifle or shotgun load, so I was shooting from the hip.

Equipped with a Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light the gun is deadly at 35 yards.
About a 15 inch max pellet spread.

It's almost cheating using a (good) laser equipped shotgun.:D
 
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