Killing Power of Patched Round Ball (PRB)

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Pure lead .454 round balls fired with 28gr of Pyrodex RS from my replica colt will flatten themselves over an inch wide and pancake thin against a hard target. They went clean through 3 milk jugs full of water which was impressive considering the low velocity.

I have never shot a living target with these loads but it looks like a case of mathematics being insufficient to judge their potential damage.
 
Expanding bullets traveling at high velocity kill better then slower ones that do not expand.

That's the conventional wisdom these days, but I'm not convinced it's right. There are other factors at work when the mathematics of terminal bullet performance meet the much fuzzier world of biology. For one thing, in the killing I've done I've noticed a strange but consistent pattern of soft lead slugs dropping animals better than jacketed bullets of similar size and speed. A grouse hit three times with .22 FMJ's that won't notice it but falls dead when I switch to lead CCI's. Or a squirrel that takes three square chest hits with FMJ pills from a nagant and won't fall till hit with a .22 LR lead CCI. And that same nagant will drop squirrels with one shot of soft lead CCCP ammo, as weak as those loads are.

There may be interactions between certain materials and tissue on a very minute level beyond the temporary cavity. Big heavy lead slugs seem to have excellent killing power even if they're not moving fast or creating a big shockwave. Of course, due to the cruelty concerns nobody has studied this stuff "in the flesh" since the 50's. So we're left with theory and a whole lot of marketing whooplah.
 
Well.

Hey:
I hunt deer with a Muzzleloader only and have for 20 plus years now.
Last year my son and I try'd the new Red Hots all copper bullets .
Mine was the 250 gr, his the 300s. 80 grs of Pyrodex "P" and Rem ML 209s.
These are inline I know but here is the deal. From our Encores these bullets all touch holes at 100 meters . The large 9 point buck shoot this year fell fast to the 250. That bullet did exactly what the maker said it would do. 100% expansion. It did not pass through. Shot was 60 yards broad side and found the bullet in the off side shoulder. It hit with a hard splat. I killed 3 deer this year with that bullet and my son killed 4 with the 300s The 300s pass on through. The jacketed Hornady SST/ML 300 did not expand. when deer were shot. The bullet was very accurate but did not expand at our velocity.
I used to shoot the Whites with 480 grain all lead rounds and they would can every deer they were pointed at. Never found one to see what they do. I have hunted with the round balls and killed some deer with them. But they do not perform the same as heavier bullets. As I said before there is nothing bad about useing RB for hunting but they do not compare with the heavier stuff.
Some of the new jacketed bullets out there are made for the magnum ML.
And will not perform well at medium velocities. That kind of give them a bad rap.But some do. I have test many. Way too many. I get pretty serious about that. The next bullet that rated fair was the T/C shock wave The Blue tip. With the black sabot. They are made by Hornady for T/C. They expanded well and are very accurate. But after seeing what the Barnes or Kinght Red Hots do I had to try them. I must say they work extremely well. I have killed a lot of deer and have used many different bullets in MLs. The round balls were by far the least effective. Again I am not putting down the round balls by any means just stating that they are not the same as heavy conicals.
No one here will give you any crap about useing the round balls for hunting, I'm pretty sure of that.
 
anyone take the time to test the traditional soft lead round ball versus one cast from the hardest linotype possible? Bet youd see better penetration.....
nothing wrong with a RB or a conical. 300 grain lead boattail hollow points can do a real good number on an elk if you aim right. But
 
Bezoar said:
anyone take the time to test the traditional soft lead round ball versus one cast from the hardest linotype possible? Bet youd see better penetration.....

IIRC, lead balls are kept soft because it's too hard to ram a hard cast ball down the bore of a muzzleloader.
 
IIRC, lead balls are kept soft because it's too hard to ram a hard cast ball down the bore of a muzzleloader.

I doubt it. Patched round balls are not deformed and do not interact directly with the bore, so their hardness is not an issue on loading. That's not true, of course, with revolvers. Perhaps that's what you were thinking about.
 
The bullet certainly seems to be taking the rifling when you press it in. After that it gets a lot easier to push. I don't believe that's just the cloth of the batch.
 
With the hard lead you'll see cut patches and the corresponding loss of accuracy, too. I've killed elk with both .54 roundball and conical. The roundball, made from soft lead, usually flattens out to somewhere about twice it's original diameter, and I usually find them against the far hide. Of course, I shoot behind the shoulder broadside so as to not ruin any meat, so the only bone I hit are ribs. Still pretty good penetration. My typical shot averages about 50 yards, with the closest being 5 yards, and the furthest about 100 long paces away. Roundball found against the far hide all the time except one that got hit in the shoulder bone and partially fragmented. I read in some ballistic tables in Sam Fadala's book that a heavy conical of the same bore as a roundball has the same energy at 100 yards as the roundball at the muzzle. I still find the penetration to be the same- spent bullet against the far hide, even the close ones, though after looking at the internal organs like the lungs, there is definitely something that looks like hydrostatic shock to me- they are just pulverized. Makes sense, all of that extra energy had to go somewhere. This is with 430 gr. Maxi-balls and CVA Powerbelts. The Powerbelts really mushroom! The Maxi-balls expand some, usually to about .70". I shot this one bull that was looking up the hill at me straight on from about 75 yards away with a Maxi-ball. It hit just under his chin, travelled the full length of his neck and through his heart and chest, stopping against the diaphragm. The only time I had a Maxi-ball go clean through, was a cow about 90-100 yards away. It was getting close to dark, so I shot her through the shoulders to anchor her fast. It broke both shoulders going through the chest cavity broadside. Go figure on the total penetration on that one through all that bone. I usually shoot 105 - 110gr. of 2f or Pyrodex RS. With the exception of that one cow, which went straight down, most of the other animals went 40 -100 yards before they piled up. On mule deer, the conicals and roudballs usually go all the way through, though I have recovered two Powerbelts that did not. As far as rate of spin and penetration go, I do know that with modern bullets, bullets that are just stabilized enough in flight tend to tumble when they hit, while bullets that are well stabilized tend to push straight through. Just look at the development of the 5.56 and the M16, and all the trouble they had with that.
 
Cosmoline - perhaps I should have been more clear, but since the subject of the post was patched round balls, I thought we were talking those only. So let me expand a little.

A .50 cal rifle takes a .490 round ball with anywhere from a .005 to a .020 cloth patch (depending on what sort of performance you want). The ball/patch assembly will thus measure from .500 (.490+.005+.005) to .530 (.490+.020+.020), but usually it's .510 (.490+.010+.010).

The lands in a .50 cal rifle should measure (land to land) .500, with grooves between .006 and .012 deep which would then measure (groove to groove) .512 to .524.

Ideally the patch will both make up the difference between the ball and the lands and also fill the grooves to ensure a good gas seal.

A .490 round ball will not engage the rifling in a .50 cal rifle.

Are you shooting .510 balls in a .50 cal rifle?
 
I know it doesn't engage lead-to-steel, but I thought the lands did indeed press into the lead through the patch. It was my understanding that unless you had a nice tight fit it would not engage the rifling and would fail to spin.
 
A nice tight fit is indeed necessary, the tighter the better up to so tight you can't push it down. But the patch does all the work, up to and including imparting rotation to the ball.
 
MyKeal

Hey There:
Mykeal has it right on the round ball. And even though they will work balls that are cast harder then pure lead are not the recommended mix.
 
It has been awhile since I've shot a muzzleloader, but I thought that even with the patch, the ball still took on some marks from the riflings.
If that's correct, logic would suggest that loading a hard lead ball would be harder to load than a soft lead ball.

Wildfire - if the patch does all the work and is responsible for all the spin on the ball, what would be the difference between using a soft lead ball versus one made of hard cast lead?
Wouldn't the patch do the same job either way?
 
No.

Hey again:
Upon fireing the round ball the softer lead ball will conform to the shape the pressure of ignition forces it into. and at that point will help and aid in creating a good gas seal when being pushed out the barrel . The harder cast balls tend to hold their shape. And the result is less accuracy.
If they are so tight that the patch is cut , then thye may be too tight. The right patch thickness is a must for reliable accuracy. A patch should look in fair condition after being fired. A burned out bottom or badly cut patch shows too thick of patch. Poor accuracy at the target would reflect a patch that may no be thick enough.
Round balls do not respond well to heavy charges , More a light to medium charge is beat for good accuracy.
The idea of "cast" round balls is not a bad one , the mix is what you need to watch. Wheel weights are usually considered too hard. Pure lead with sometimes a little tin for help in casting quality are best.
 
The old elephant hunters used hardened lead for the balls in thier 4-8ga smoothbores. This was to increase penetration on the large game they used them on. Average range was around 25-35 yards!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
 
Soft lead does indeed take the imprint of the rifling if loaded with a tight patch. Lead that is considered soft can be indented with your thumbnail even though it may not be 100% lead. With the right patch combination harder lead can be used, but I don't see the need in my little corner of the world. Deer will never know the hardness of the roundball when it plows through their "boiler room".
 
I live in Montana and I have a friend that regularly takes deer with a cattlemans carbine. That is an1858 Remington pistol with a longer barrel and shoulder stock. No patch and a lot less powder then a rifle. Kills them dead. He's an Indian and does his part of the hunt so I suspect it's really the hunter that does the killing and the ball just helps out a little.

Personally I like a 45-70 with a 500gr bullet or a 54 cal with 460gr bullets. Why use a pee shooter when a cannon will do?
 
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There Ya go.

Hey There.
Misfire99 has it . The hunter does the killing and the bullet is a good thing to have along.
Bigger the better.
 
There have been many tests done by firing bullets of different calibers and velocities into compressed cardboard cakes.

There has been instances where militray FMJ ball loads traveling at high velocity simply pass through the cake, leaving two almost perfect holes with very little collateral damage. However, tests done with other rounds, including low velocity handgun hollow point rounds and defensive rifle rounds, showed that these rounds expanded significantly on impact, resulting in collateral damage to the insides of the compressed cardboard cake. The entry hole may be almost perfect, but the exit holes will be significantly larger, and may have a jagged look to it. Also, bits of cardboard may also be expelled, and the bullet itself, when recovered, would be found to have lower mass than before it was fired.

Evidently, expansion seems to play a major role in the effectiveness of different rounds.

When using muzzleloaders for hunting or self defense, one must be sure to use common soft lead, because these have overall greater expansion than other alloys available in the current markets. For example, the Hornady hard-balls and conical sabots are made with either antimony and lead or other forms of hardened material. While they were created for the purpose of penetrating heavy hides at long ranges, what they would do inside the target would be predictably milder than using a patched roundball casted from pure soft lead. HOWEVER, on the other hand, if you are hunting bison or bear at extended ranges with a muzzleloader, it will be foolhardy to use a patched roundball, because it might expand so rapidly that it will lose most of it's energy upon contacting the hide, and probably never even penetrate enought to create significant wound channels. It might never even penetrate at all.
American soldiers stationed in the western frontier in the years prior to the War For Southern Independance reported that their .36 Navies firing the round ball had alsmost no effect in stopping big game, while a .44 Walker firing the "picket bullet" is extremely effective against bear and buffalo.
HOWEVER, the same picket bullet used for self defense against a violent repeat offender who just broke into your home and is threatening to execute your wife and children might not cause significant injury as to stop the aggressor. When the conical was used against heavy game, it already started expanding when it came into contact with the hide, and continued expanding when it went inside, thus creating terminal wound channels. The same round used against a human assailant might not work as effectively, unless he/she is wearing a heavy jacket that will enable the bullet to expand on contact and thus produce a terminal wound channel once it penetrates the actual body.
In the above-mentioned self defense scenario, when seconds meant the difference between statistics in the local crime report or a story of remarkable strength and survival in the Armed Citizen section of the American Rifleman Magazine, the patched roundball will work the best. Upon impact with the assailant, it will expand violently and create a terminal wound channel that will stop him/her IMMEDIATELY.
While bullets of one type will work effectively in one given scenario, it does not mean that it will perform the same way in a different scenario. Likewise, while the simple round ball may produce devastating results upon human assailants, or medium sized creatures such as jackals, I wouldn't use the same round ball ammunition if my quarry is Alaskan Grizzly or Plains Buffalo.

Therefore, we are kind of in a dilemma right now. The best thing to do is to assess your situation and determine what caliber/type of ammunition you will need. You wouldn't go out and make an arrest on a drug den while carrying a .22, unless it is a .223. Likewise, you wouldn't use a .44 Magnum while hunting for squirrels.
 
It's interesting you mention the picket bullet. I've been doing some research into references in 19th cnt. Alaskan hunting literature to "slug bullets" fired out of muzzleloaders. There was actually something called a "slug bullet" used in the CW and after. If you can imagine a roundball rolled between two plates to make it elongated, that's essentially the shape. No groves, so it must have used a patch. The possibilities for a swaged round of this "wadcutter" design interest me. You'd have extra weight, better sectional density and greater impact at least for short range. I reckon I could actually make these buggers myself by literally "rolling out" a larger roundball in some sort of primitive form. I can't find any casting mold for the shape.

mm152_050207.jpg
 
Once upon a time I was trying to make a mold to expand my ammo selection for a .44 BP revolver (mostly because I love to tinker) to do what was in the above pic take two blocks of soft metal 1/2" X 2 X 2 clamp them together and drill the right size hole (375 for a .38 cal) the deeper you go the longer the round will be when you pour. I like to use babbitt bearing lead (80% lead 15% antimony 5% tin)
 
I haven't been able to find any source for modern ballistic testing on RB's. Nobody seems to have bothered to test these ancient projectiles on gel.

I forget which channel I saw it on, but it was a show about the American Civil War. The were comparing weapons, the "old" 62 caliber musket and the "new" Minie Musket.

As a comparison of lethality they put big blocks of ballistic gellatin out and shot them with both types of rifles. I don't remember the distance, probably 50 yards or less. And they had slow motion cameras.

I can remember this big microwave sized block of gellatin flexing and flopping off the stand after being hit with the 62 round ball. The wound channels of both were impressive, and when seen through slow mo, it was impressive.

One thing about the round ball, it actually flattens out, and it created a big temporal wound channel.

Big, soft lead bullets, always gave excellent stopping power. When the Brits replaced the 450/577 Cartridge, they found the 303 FMJ lacking in stopping power. So they created the Dum-Dum bullet to compensate.

So, ever hear of anyone complaining that they were under armed with a 303?
 
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