.50 cal 1:48"

[rodwha]

I'm looking at Traditions .50 cal Deer Hunter with 1:48" twist. From what I've been reading I get conflicting reports on it's usefulness. Not all reports state if the projectile was a RB, saboted slug, or full bore bullet (same as a conical?).
Some state that they get fair accuracy to 100 yds and some further.
Is it unrealistic to think I should be able to get out to 175 yds as a max? If zeroed at 150 yds it should stay within 4" of POA according to the ballistics calculator. And according to Hogdgon's site 80 grns of 3F 777 ought to give a 250 grn SST 1750 fps.
What size groups should one expect with aerodynamic (SST) sabots at 150 yds?
And will the 1:48" twist handle the .50 cal bullets well? How about patched RB?

 

[frontiergander]

1:48 is good for patched balls or conicals. Sabots are a bit iffy due to their overall length

 

[rodwha]

Too long? Would it be better to use .50 cal 300 or 350 Hornady FPB's?

 

[foghornl]

I have a "Traditions Trade Rifle" in .50 Flintlock, 1/48 twist. Accuracy is best in MY rifle with patched round ball..conicals and 'minnie-balls' not so much.

175 Yds seems like a stretch to me with a 'front stuffer'. 100Yds is a more reasonable figure

Your Mileage Will Vary

 

[josmund]

It would take a lot of practice to shoot at 175. It can be done but not easily with anything you mentioned above. If it's long range in a sidelock you want, look for a fast twist barrel and shoot heavy lead.

Now, a scoped inline with sabots would be another story. 175 could be obtained with a little practice and and a little information.

 

[rodwha]

So 1:48" is just too slow for sabots? And full bore bullets?
What kind of grouping could be expected at 125 yds (zero at 100 yds) with sabots and .50 cal bullets?
I had intended on using Hornady FTX/SST/FPB aerodynamic bullets if able to shoot out to 175 yds (with a good rest), which pushed by 80 grns of 3F 777 ought to keep me within ~4" of zero. Certainly wouldn't do to have 18" groups though!
Is there another side lock rifle with a better twist that isn't the length of a pine tree (<44" OAL) or the weight of a boulder (<8 lbs) that wouldn't become a real burden to carry around in the woods all day?

"Now, a scoped inline with sabots would be another story. 175 could be obtained with a little practice and and a little information."
The Deerhunter is tapped for a scope and considered one for the longer range and for dawn/dusk use. I also like the fiber optic sights.

 

[rodwha]

Would that twist do well with lighter saboted bullets (44 200 grn/45 225 grn) or a 300 grn .50 cal bullet?
Would slowing it down help or hurt?
I see Marlin rifles their 44 Mag/45 Colt with 1:38 and their 444/45-70 with 1:20. So I'm guessing that the average bullet for the Mag/Colt is 240/250 and the 45-70 with a 300. So it seems 1:48 might do fairly well with very light bullets. But I am not knowledgeable in this.
It seems the only ML's with a 1:38 twist are inlines. Any percussion sidelocks other than Lyman's Great Plains Hunter? It states it has an 11.6 lb shipping weight. Is that about what it weighs?

 

[arcticap]

Most side lock muzzle loaders will "usually" only give adequate performance out to 75 - 100 yards with conicals, sabots or PRB's (balls). If it has a barrel with a fast twist like 1 in 24", 1 in 28", 1 in 32" or maybe 1 in 38", then special efforts can be made to work up a load that it will reach out further with. But sometimes that requires a Green Mountain replacement barrel along with some serious effort to work up a load.
The popular 240 grain saboted bullets would be one option for firing out of the Deerhunter to reach out to 100 yards, but not all 240 grain saboted bullets are the same.
The .54 Deerhunter was reported to be able to shoot sabots and conicals better than PRB's.
Lyman does offer a 1 in 32" barrel for their percussion guns and may even sell a gun fitted with one if you call them.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/pdfs/catalog/page_097.pdf

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/blackpowdermuzzleloaderriflebarrels

But to be perfectly frank, most folks that want to hunt or shoot at long range from 100 - 300 yards buy a fast twist inline rifle that can easily be set up with a scope. Several companies including Knight are now making lighter weight versions that they call a "Mountain Rifle".
While some folks can manage to wring long range accuracy out of a side lock using conical bullets, that kind of performance isn't accomplished anywhere near as easily as with an inline and a scope that's mounted closer to the bore than a side lock can be fitted with, even if it is factory drilled & tapped.

 

[rodwha]

In my shallow understanding of modern ballistics and ignorance of muzzleloading I had looked at 80 grn 3F 777 data (hearing how max loads aren't very accurate) and the velocities attained with 24" barrel and plugged in the number with the bullets used and felt that a 150 yd 0 with 175 max range ought to be doable, not really knowing much about the varying twist rates for muzzleloaders. I barely got a minor understanding in what I've read concerning the .223 and using heavier bullets and needing the faster twist.

Certainly I would prefer the ability to hunt out past 150 yds, but I have yet to kill an animal outside of 80 yds. I think I could live 100 yds, though I'm still wondering about 125 yds being too far grouping wise. What size groups can one expect at 100 yds with sabots and/or full bore bullets?

I keep looking at Lyman's Great Plains Hunter, but 32" of barrel and 11+ lbs is an awful lot to carry around in the woods all day long for a weekend or so! Were it a dedicated blind rifle overlooking a small field of alfalfa, well...

Looking at Lyman's bullet moulds I see the 370 Maxi was designed with a 1:48 twist in mind. It doesn't make sense that this twist rate will do well with such a large chunk of lead.

Were this your new hunting rifle what would you start off with in search of good 100 yd groups?

 

[arcticap]

The Lyman Great Plains Hunter features a 1 in 32" twist and not a 1 in 48" twist.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/great-plains-hunter.php

It's designed for bore size conical bullets and saboted bullets.
At least 80 - 100 grains of powder would need to be loaded with which ever bullet is choosen. It's mostly a matter of which powder and bullet combination is selected. How heavy of a bullet to use is a matter of personal choice and performance on the game.
Only experimentation will show which works best.
Check out this post about idahoron and how he obtains accuracy with his sidelock rig in Idaho where hunting with saboted bullets isn't legal:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8215262&postcount=2

 

[scotjute]

My experience with a Thompson rifle with 1 in 48 twist was that it shot neither ball nor conical well, just sort of a compromise rifling. I eventually went to another rifle with slower twist for round ball and was pleased with the increased accuracy I saw. Would recommend going with a more specialized twist.

 

[loose noose]

rodwa, I don't believe those rifles go 11#s I believe they're closer to about 9#, They allways go a few pounds higher because of the shipping material that they use, if that's any consolation. BTW I've got a Cabella's Hawkens with a 1:48 twist in a .54 and it shoots the rb in about 4" groups at a 100 yards, and at 125 yards they open up considerably to over 6" groups ( not entirely certain at 125). The conical shoot about the same. Also I shot a small buck up in UP Michigan a few years ago with it in an open field and my range finder saw it to be at 103 yards. That was taken using rb. The deer only went about 25-30 yards and rolled over.

 

[josmund]

Take a look at the Traditions Lightning Sidelock. It comes with a 1/32 Twist Barrel.

I just bought one a few months ago and it will give you a god chance at what you're after. Plus, they are inexpensive and can be readily found on Gunbroker and elsewhere.

I've only shot mine a 50 yards but it one ragged hole with both saboted and conicals. I have a ladder sight on it and plan on working it out to long, long range. ( not for hunting but for fun ) I just need some time to mess around.

This gun is not the fanciest or most traditional but if you're just getting started, it's a darn good start. It's a little big but you will need to compromise if you want to go long range.

 

[rodwha]

Lyman replied and stated that the Great Plains Hunter is 50" OAL and 9 lbs. That's a lot of rifle to carry around in the woods all day. I do like it though. It would make a nice rifle for a blind overlooking a field.
I appreciate the replies and direction fellows.
I could certainly live with 4" groups at 100 yds. That's fair enough for hunting with.
Still a 1:48" twist, but I really like Lyman's Trade rifle and Deerstalker, and the Hawkens rifles. Just something about real wood on your rifle.
When the term conical is used is it only referring to lead or does that include the full bore bullets also?
With a 1:48 twist is it better to use a full bore over a sabot?

 

[arcticap]

I think that conical refers to any bullet, and then there's the bore size conicals.
Below is a relatively new precision made bore size jacketed conical that's made by Hornady named the FPB. It comes in 2 weights in .50 caliber only, 300 & 350 grains.
It's very accurate fired from a variety of twist rates including the 1 in 48" and is devastating on large game. A larger size saboted bullet may not shoot as well as these do from a 1 in 48" barrel. In this case, the FPB delivers a lethal advantage and some even use it for hunting elk.
Suprisingly there was a discontinued 375 grain Buffalo Bullets saboted lead bullets that also shot very well from a 1 in 48" twist too, but those haven't been available. However it just goes to show that you never know what will work well with any twist rate unless it's tried. Muzzle loading is full of surprises in that way.

http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-300-gr-FPB/

http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-350-gr-FPB/

 

[rodwha]

So I've been leaning towards a Lyman Deerstalker instead of a Traditions Deerhunter as I believe you get what you paid for. I've had someone who owns several of both and feels neither is necessarily better than the other. Gotta wonder what you get for $250 vs $500 though.
Any reason why you would choose one over the other? Or maybe the Trade rifle?