Kimber 8400 Talkeetna .375 H&H Mag and mule deer update ... 460 yards!

[MCMXI]

In October of 2014 I used my Kimber Talkeetna in .375 H&H to shoot my first mule deer in Montana.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-meets-a-nice-mulie-buck.765281/#post-9675273

I then decided to make a number of changes to the rifle last year which I described in this thread.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...arison-24-vs-19-5.788474/page-2#post-10061329

The Talkeetna wasn't ready last year so I used an AI AW in .308 Win on a mule deer hunt which worked well.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-ammunition-outstanding.790350/#post-10094445

This year I really wanted to use the Talkeetna again so last week I finalized load development, shot some test targets and used the rifle for a mule deer hunt this past weekend. As I mentioned in the thread about modifying the rifle, the "best" load shifted to 75.1gr of powder from the original 74.2gr of powder but load length and bullet are the same. The five-shot group below shot at 100 yards off a rest and rear bag is by far the best group I've shot with this rifle and I couldn't be happier with it. I took a photo of the bullet holes in the cardboard behind the target to convince myself that there were five shots there.

I then shot two rounds at my steel target at 400 yards using the RZ600 stadia (Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40mm) for holdover. I was really pleased with the results since the shots were 2" apart and close to my point of aim. I made a small scope correction and felt that I was ready for hunting.

I was up at 6:30am on Saturday morning but the deer weren't very active. Lots of glassing didn't reveal much in the way of nice bucks, neither mulies nor whitetail. By midday I was sitting in my friend's truck at the bottom of a coolie hoping that the deer would get up to feed. By 3:00pm some whitetail deer were feeding in the coolie bottom but no bucks and then my friend's son spotted the mule deer shown below just below the skyline. We ranged him at 460 yards and noticed that the whitetail deer were moving off. I decided to shoot this buck and rested the rifle on the bed rail of the truck. The sun was almost directly in my face but I tried not to be bothered by it or by the low sun washing out the image in the scope. I held the 450 yard stadia on the buck's chest and pulled the trigger. The bullet punched a hole through his liver, and passed on through. He stood there for a moment and then slowly moved towards us. I shot him again with the second bullet entering his upper chest and severing his spine ... he dropped like a rock! It took us five to ten minutes to drive up and out of the coolie to what appeared at first to be a dead deer. As I approached him he tried to lift his head but clearly couldn't move so to end his suffering I shot him in the heart with a 9mm pistol. I have mixed feelings about this deer and feel that I was lucky rather than good. I made some fundamental mistakes that I'll list here in the hope that I don't make them again, and in the hope that perhaps others will think about the things I missed when they're hunting. Some of the items in the list should have been considered long before I went hunting and others need to considered during the excitement of the hunt. The latter can be more difficult particularly if you're set up for one kind of shot but need to make a different shot in response to an unexpected opportunity. Anyway, here are the things that I should have considered.

• My scope is zereod for 200 yards at 3,200 feet elevation (RZ600 reticle)
• I was hunting at an altitude of 4,500 to 4,800 feet elevation but didn't account for the difference in my 200 yard zero (less bullet drop)
• I didn't refer to a ballistic table to determine the difference in bullet drop at 440, 450 and 460 yards and used the 450 yard stadia for both the 460 and 450 yard shots
• I was shooting uphill at an angle of about 15 degrees and didn't account for less bullet drop
• There was just a light breeze in the bottom of the coolie where I was located but the wind was blowing right to left at 15 to 20 mph above the coolie
• The deer was only a few yards from the edge of the coolie so my bullet would have traveled up and out of the coolie and into the wind which most likely caused the bullet to drift left and hit the liver (the buck was broadside facing right)

This hunt was a learning experience and I hope to do better next time. Game animals deserve our best effort and shouldn't hope that we get lucky. In the first photo I'm pointing from just forward of my shooting position to the location of the deer near the ridge line when I first shot him. The second photo is self-explanatory. The Kimber Talkeetna is an outstanding hunting rifle made better by a few modifications, and once again the .375 H&H did the job without any unnecessary meat damage.

 

[wankerjake]

Nice buck and nice shot(s)

 

[H&Hhunter]

As I've been preaching for years. The .375H&H gets it done from long range shots on deer and elk to brown bear in thick cover to elephants. I love the .375 H&H!

 

[MCMXI]

wankerjake, thanks very much.

H&Hhunter, I received the Talkeetna on November 1st, 2012 when I was working for Remington but it wasn't until you responded to a thread that I started back in June of 2014 that I learned just how good the .375 H&H Mag is as an all-around hunting cartridge. Just as you said in that thread, it doesn't do any unnecessary meat damage. A coworker shot an elk last year at 350 yards using a 300 WSM (Barnes 165gr TTSX) and there was a significant amount of meat damage and yet I've shot mule deer at 203 yards and now 460 yards with no meat damage at all. My original intent for the Talkeetna back in 2012 was to use it for elk and bigger, but now it's my "go to" hunting rifle for any game animal in North America. I'll admit that I never appreciated the potential accuracy of the .375 H&H cartridge figuring that it was a 100 yard, 2" group dangerous game stopper and not much more. When I started load development in 2014 I soon learned just how good it is out to 500 yards and more.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/375-h-h-mag-for-deer-mule-and-whitetail.755456/

I've copied one of your posts from the thread above since I feel that it's worth repeating. This was your response to my question ".375 H&H Mag for deer ... mule and whitetail?" Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. Now I have coworkers interested in putting together a similar rifle of their own.

"Think of a .375H&H as a bigger .30-06. It has about he same trajectory as compared to an 06 with similar sectional density bullets. It does about the same amount of meat damage on all game, as in very mild meat damage. The only difference in terminal performance is that the .375 gives much deeper straight line penetration and it has a lot more momentum so it gives more bone breaking ability on heavy game.

I've killed deer and smaller game such as impala, inyala even reed buck with a .375H&H it pumps a hole through them kills them just fine and it does very minimal meat damage even on very small light game. Is a .375H&H needed for deer sized game? No it isn't, but it is perfectly suitable for use on a deer if that is what you have in your hands at the time.

It's one of these scenarios, if I am Cape buffalo hunting with my .375 and I see a great impala I want to shoot, it is absolutely not an issue. If I am impala hunting with my .30-06 and I see a Cape buffalo bull I want to shoot it is a problem. Same goes for elk vs deer except obviously an 06 is pretty fair elk round.

If you'd feel comfortable hunting deer with a .338 there is no reason in the world you shouldn't feel just as comfortable doing it with a .375. The "unwashed masses" in this country will give you some chaff about it as the .375 is considered exotic and different but they have no idea what they are talking about. The .375 has a reputation in this country as being a heavy rifle that is best used on super heavy game. When in fact it is a medium bore that happens to be the minimum that is considered to be just adequate on the super heavies and just about perfect for just about anything else. As my good friend in Africa once said "There might be better choices for some hunting but the .375 is never the wrong choice."

 

[jim in Anchorage]

No fair looking this up. How many of you know what Talkeetna means?

 

[climbnjump]

No fair looking this up. How many of you know what Talkeetna means?

What it means? I don't know. But it is also the name of a town in Alaska that I've been to and flown out of many times.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

What it means? I don't know. But it is also the name of a town in Alaska that I've been to and flown out of many times.

Half credit. Yes it's a town in Alaska. But in the Alaska native tongue it means "meeting of three rivers". Talkeetna sits on the Chulitna, Susitna and Talkeetna rivers. In native talk n a (my phone will not let me type n and a together) means river.
Who did you fly with, and where to?

 

[H&Hhunter]

wankerjake, thanks very much.

H&Hhunter, I received the Talkeetna on November 1st, 2012 when I was working for Remington but it wasn't until you responded to a thread that I started back in June of 2014 that I learned just how good the .375 H&H Mag is as an all-around hunting cartridge. Just as you said in that thread, it doesn't do any unnecessary meat damage. A coworker shot an elk last year at 350 yards using a 300 WSM (Barnes 165gr TTSX) and there was a significant amount of meat damage and yet I've shot mule deer at 203 yards and now 460 yards with no meat damage at all. My original intent for the Talkeetna back in 2012 was to use it for elk and bigger, but now it's my "go to" hunting rifle for any game animal in North America. I'll admit that I never appreciated the potential accuracy of the .375 H&H cartridge figuring that it was a 100 yard, 2" group dangerous game stopper and not much more. When I started load development in 2014 I soon learned just how good it is out to 500 yards and more.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/375-h-h-mag-for-deer-mule-and-whitetail.755456/

I've copied one of your posts from the thread above since I feel that it's worth repeating. This was your response to my question ".375 H&H Mag for deer ... mule and whitetail?" Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. Now I have coworkers interested in putting together a similar rifle of their own.

"Think of a .375H&H as a bigger .30-06. It has about he same trajectory as compared to an 06 with similar sectional density bullets. It does about the same amount of meat damage on all game, as in very mild meat damage. The only difference in terminal performance is that the .375 gives much deeper straight line penetration and it has a lot more momentum so it gives more bone breaking ability on heavy game.

I've killed deer and smaller game such as impala, inyala even reed buck with a .375H&H it pumps a hole through them kills them just fine and it does very minimal meat damage even on very small light game. Is a .375H&H needed for deer sized game? No it isn't, but it is perfectly suitable for use on a deer if that is what you have in your hands at the time.

It's one of these scenarios, if I am Cape buffalo hunting with my .375 and I see a great impala I want to shoot, it is absolutely not an issue. If I am impala hunting with my .30-06 and I see a Cape buffalo bull I want to shoot it is a problem. Same goes for elk vs deer except obviously an 06 is pretty fair elk round.

If you'd feel comfortable hunting deer with a .338 there is no reason in the world you shouldn't feel just as comfortable doing it with a .375. The "unwashed masses" in this country will give you some chaff about it as the .375 is considered exotic and different but they have no idea what they are talking about. The .375 has a reputation in this country as being a heavy rifle that is best used on super heavy game. When in fact it is a medium bore that happens to be the minimum that is considered to be just adequate on the super heavies and just about perfect for just about anything else. As my good friend in Africa once said "There might be better choices for some hunting but the .375 is never the wrong choice."

Thanks for that my friend! I've killed a huge number of big game animals with my .375H&H. It has never once come up lacking. I am so happy that you have given it the opportunity to serve your hunting needs. You'll never be disappointed.

 

[MCMXI]

Jim, thanks for the explanation of the meaning of Talkeetna. I only knew that the rifle was named for the town in Alaska.

 

[wankerjake]

I've got a 375 H&H in my future... not sure when, but it will happen.

 

[climbnjump]

Who did you fly with, and where to?

Always flew with K2. Went up the Ruth Glacier a couple of times - once was for a backpack trip and another was a climbing trip. Flew into the Kahiltna Glacier a couple of times - both climbing trips. And took another couple of flight-seeing trips with them when friends wanted to see the sights. It's incredibly beautiful there. As long as the weather is cooperating, that is...

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Always flew with K2. Went up the Ruth Glacier a couple of times - once was for a backpack trip and another was a climbing trip. Flew into the Kahiltna Glacier a couple of times - both climbing trips. And took another couple of flight-seeing trips with them when friends wanted to see the sights. It's incredibly beautiful there. As long as the weather is cooperating, that is...

Pretty ambitious trips!
Are you thinking of going back? I have to put a plug in here for Sheldon air. My friend Holly Sheldon(daughter of famous glacier pilot Don Sheldon) and her husband own it. They are in the same area as K2 and specialize in just the sort of flights you took.

 

[climbnjump]

Are you thinking of going back?

My days of humping 80 lb packs up snow and ice covered slopes while roped to two or three other similarly addled-minded individuals are pretty much over. It was good while it lasted...

I did have the opportunity to visit the Mountain House in the Sheldon Amphitheater on one of those trips up the Ruth, though. Didn't actually stay in it, just camped nearby.

(-With apologies to the OP - my posts haven't had much to do with the venerable .375 H&H.)

 

[H&Hhunter]

Mod note...

As long as you carried a .375 had 375 feet of rope, or used more than 375 calories an hour we'll let this off topic post slide. )

 

[roo_ster]

OP:

Some food for though. Thanks for sharing.

Howdy:

Owner of a CZ550 American Safari in .375H&H my wife got me for Christmas some years back. I, too, was astounded that it is my most accurate sporting rifle. It will put 3 Rem Express 270gr into one ragged hole at 100yards. (Obviously, bench with sandbags. Can't do that offhand to save my life.) And it hammers hogs with those loads like Thor in a roid rage. I don't reload for it yet and I am still seeking a longer-legged commercial load for beyond 200 yards, maybe the Hornady 250gr GMX load. Time is hard to come by, so having commercial loads to fall back on are a comfort.

In any case, I have a Leupold VX-R 1.5-4x20mm scope on it and I am beginning to think that I may be handicapping it a bit. The OP has a 3-9x40mm on his and a step up for my .375 might be the Leupold VX-R 3-9x40mm. Looks like .375H&H can reach out and touch some critter and might be able to put the magnification to use, contrary to my previous thoughts on the matter. And going from 1.5x20mm to 3x40mm loses me little in lower-light conditions (if my math is correct: 20/1.5=13.3 ; 40/3=13.3 exit pupil diameter). Going from 1.5x to 3x would make it harder to use up close & personal, though.

 

[MCMXI]

roo_ster, scope choice on a rifle is such a personal thing and I don't think a 4x scope would work for me given the kind of hunting we have here in MT. I have three of the Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm scopes but prefer the Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40mm RZ600 on my .375 H&H for general hunting due to the simplicity that comes with the RZ family of reticles, and the very decent glass too. I don't want to be adjusting turrets or parallax (focus) on a hunting rifle and want accurate holdovers out to 600 yards. I do load development on 9x but the magnification needs to be on 7.5x for the RZ600 reticle to be accurate with my handload, and I like that magnification for hunting deer and elk. I like the Zeiss system so much that I ultimately bought four of the original Conquest scopes. I have three with the RZ600 reticle and one with the RZ800 reticle and do wish that they offered an illuminated reticle option for low light shooting. In case anyone has been following RZ reticles, they are the original RZ variants that don't have solid lines out to the edges of the field of view at 3, 6 and 9. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not. The first image below shows the view through the 3x9 looking at an 8" steel target at 400 yards with the scope set to 7.5x. The bottom photo shows the rifle minus the Beartooth comb raising kit that I installed recently. A 3-9x40mm scope is a bit heavier than a 1.5-4x, 1.5-5x, fixed 4x or fixed 6x but for me it really works well. Since I don't want to dial elevation or windage corrections, and want a reticle that is fast and accurate for my particular loads out to 600 yards, the Zeiss Conquest scopes are the way to go for me, and they're all I use on my (and my girlfriend's) hunting rifles. This won't change until something better comes along. On a side note, my girlfriend has the same Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40mm on her Kimber 84M Montana in .308 Win. I worked up a 165gr TTSX handload for her and the scope needs to be on 7x for the reticle to be accurate out to 600 yards.

 

[roo_ster]

MCMXI...

Thanks for all that good information. The scopes you mention are not as spendy as i thought they would be and will get due consideration when i go to a bit more glass...and i will get a bit more glass. I do like the leupold illuminated reticle, though, as we have quite a bit of night hunting around here. And the vx-r 3-9x40mm is available with a mil reticle to aid in longer shots.

That is one heck of a rifle you have built up.

 

[MCMXI]

roo_ster, thanks very much. I'm really pleased with the rifle as it now sits. It's without a doubt my "go to" hunting rifle.

 

[MCMXI]

I just discovered another thing I didn't account for so got lucky on. According to Barnes, the 250g TTSX bullet needs to have a minimum velocity of 1,850 fps in order to expand. Based on Applied Ballistics the bullet had a velocity of about 1,998 fps at 460 yards. The bullet slows to 1,860 fps at 550 yards so I'd better keep that in my head for next time.

 

[LoonWulf]

This thread was a great read, I see ive over looked it for a few days lol. Nice buck and great shooting. Every time i think ive convinced my self i have absolutely no reason, or desire for a .375 H&H, I read something or see a picture and im right back to drooling over them again. Yours looks great, shoots great, and its nice to see it getting regular use......maybe I can justify owning one to the wife in the near future.

 

[MCMXI]

LoonWulf, I lived in Hawaii for many years and some might wonder why you'd want a .375 H&H there. However, it would be good for axis deer or pigs and even goat. I never owned one in Hawaii, but based on my experience over the past three years I should have bought one a long time ago.

 

[LoonWulf]

Yep, Id agree, Ive had an ongoing desire to get one since high school. I LIKE big rounds, dosent really get much bigger than the .375H&H and still be useable for MOST of what I want. With my .458socom filling my desire to have a .45-70 class rifle, Ive really only got a true med bore left to get. Ive considered the .375 rugger as well, but i just LIKE the H&H.