180gr TTSX and the .308 Win

[MCMXI]

I have a number of rifles but only have two that I consider to be pure deer/elk hunting rifles. One is a custom Kimber 8400 Talkeetna chambered in .375 H&H Mag which I've used the past two of three seasons with good success. The other is a custom Kimber 8400 WSM (300 WSM) converted to .308 Win. I plan to use the .308 Win this year for deer and possibly elk. The barrel has a 1:10 twist and I have a 5+1 configuration with the internal box magazine.

My plan over the next few weeks is to work up a 180gr TTSX load for it. Barnes lists the minimum effective velocity to be 1,500 fps for that bullet and looking in QuickLOAD I should be able to get a MV of around 2,560 fps without too much trouble. With a BC of .484 and hunting up here in MT at a minimum elevation of 3,200 ft and most likely closer to 4,500 ft, and also adding 200 fps safety margin i.e. a minimum velocity of 1,700 fps, the bullet should be effective out to 600 yards. The bullet doesn't slow to 1,500 fps until 750 yards. I'm excited about this combination and hope to have a nice deer and elk to show for it in November.

Here's the rifle that I probably won't have time to get dipped before hunting season to match my Talkeenta but that's definitely something I want to do. I haven't done much with it other than shoot some Federal Trophy Copper 165gr which did really well with groups around 0.6 moa.

 

[jmr40]

That ain't right. Very few standard cup and core bullets will expand reliably below 1800 fps. Some designed for 30-30 class cartridges are good down to about 1600 fps. I don't care what Barnes says those bullets don't expand much at all below 2000 fps and most people find 2200 a preferred minimum speed.

I wouldn't shoot any copper bullet heavier than 150 gr in a 308. The 130's will out penetrate a 180 gr standard bullet so there is no reason to try 180's.

 

[Gtscotty]

2,560 fps max velocity seems a bit slow for a 24" .308, I know the monolithic construction can affect loads and pressures, but it seems there should be another 100 fps or so on the table?

Out of curiosity, why the 180 gr TTSX over the 175 gr LRX? The LRX has a bit better BC, and I would expect (although I haven't called to verify) that it would also have a low opening velocity, given that the LRXs are billed as their "long range" offerings.

 

[MCMXI]

2,560 fps max velocity seems a bit slow for a 24" .308,

The barrel is 22" long. I used to shoot a 178gr A-MAX from a 26" Krieger barrel at 2,650 fps so the velocity seems about right.

Out of curiosity, why the 180 gr TTSX over the 175 gr LRX?

Because I have a few hundred of them obtained before the LRX was available.

That ain't right. Very few standard cup and core bullets will expand reliably below 1800 fps.

I'll take the data from the experts at Barnes rather than internet opinion. My gf had a Whitetail DRT on my property last year using a 165gr TTSX .308 Win load that I worked up for her Kimber 84M. So much for 130gr being the max bullet weight for a monolithic.

 

[Nature Boy]

I'll be watching your load development with interest.

I'm leaving all my .308s at home this season and going with .30-06 for me and .358win for my son. I'll also be working up some loads for both: 180g Pro Hunter for the 06 and either 200g Accubond or 180gTTSX for the .358

 

[Peakbagger46]

I'd be leary of using that bullet in the .308. I took a mule deer at 80 yards with a .308 165g Barnes (HP version) and had very poor to no expansion. Needed a follow up shot after it ran a good way.

I also LOST a mule deer doe on a broadside shot using youth loads in the wife's .308 with 130g tipped Barnes at about 2,500 fps (shot distance less than 100y from a good rest.). Found a small piece of lung but no blood trail after looking for hours. The only well hit big game animal I've ever failed to recover.

The "data experts at Barnes" assured me my youth loads were traveling more than fast enough; I called them to make sure. Wife's load is now soft points that do expand at reduced velocity and have dropped several deer for her.

Two animals is hardly a lot of data, but we have sure moved away from copper bullets for our .308 rifles.

 

[Peakbagger46]

Awesome looking rifle and scope by the way!

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 + hogs with a .308 using 165 gr Barnes TSX bullets. I was loading them at about 2750 FPS. I've never had an expansion issue with them. They open violently and are extremely effective killers. I've also killed several deer with them. Also never had an issue.

On lighter game like deer I shoot a little further forward than the classic North American behind the shoulder lung shot. Any controlled expansion bullet is going to struggle to fully open at longer range and low velocity on something as small and light as a deer rib cage. Moving the shot placement forward into the "vital triangle" African style 100% solves any and all issues with a slower expanding bullet at longer range.

In my opinion the Barnes bullet is not the best deer bullet available for a lower velocity round. For the .308 I prefer the 165 Gr Nosler Accubond for a deer specific bullet. They are a nice mix of violent initial expansion and good penetration. Of course on a deer sized target at .308 velocity a 165 gr Sierra Game King is simply an amazing bullet and very hard to argue with.

 

[Peakbagger46]

"On lighter game like deer I shoot a little further forward than the classic North American behind the shoulder lung shot."

That was likely a main cause of my failure to expand issue. I always strive to shoot behind the shoulder as to no destroy any meat.

"For the .308 I prefer the 165 Gr Nosler Accubond for a deer specific bullet. They are a nice mix of violent initial expansion and good penetration."

That is the exact bullet I switched to in my .308. Numerous mule deer shot behind the shoulder with this bullet have been a success! No meat damage and they don't go far, leaving a short and excellent blood trail. Now that I have switched to the 30-06, I am running 180g Accubonds in it. No deer yet, but the pronghorn I shot last year on a facing shot at 120 yards showed awesome performance with minimal meat loss.

I'm guessing pigs have enough bone to punch through to get expansion going.

 

[Sunray]

Lots of data on Barnes' site. Pitch the QuickLoad.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2017/07/308WinchesterForWeb.pdf

 

[H&Hhunter]

"On lighter game like deer I shoot a little further forward than the classic North American behind the shoulder lung shot."

That was likely a main cause of my failure to expand issue. I always strive to shoot behind the shoulder as to no destroy any meat.

"For the .308 I prefer the 165 Gr Nosler Accubond for a deer specific bullet. They are a nice mix of violent initial expansion and good penetration."

That is the exact bullet I switched to in my .308. Numerous mule deer shot behind the shoulder with this bullet have been a success! No meat damage and they don't go far, leaving a short and excellent blood trail. Now that I have switched to the 30-06, I am running 180g Accubonds in it. No deer yet, but the pronghorn I shot last year on a facing shot at 120 yards showed awesome performance with minimal meat loss.

I'm guessing pigs have enough bone to punch through to get expansion going.

Exactly right. Pigs are very stout and provide excellent expansion media for controlled expansion bullets. I always tell people when picking a hog bullet think elk bullet.

 

[1stmarine]

The advertised low end thresholds are not accurate and if you take a long shot you will see pin hole wounding that is not a humane way to shoot an animal.
I have seen this mistake made by inexperienced hunters and it is not pretty even at not so long distances.
The 180gr TSX and TTSX should be reserved for something that can move them fast like a Winchester magnum or WSM.
They take a lot of case capacity due to their length and that is why they cannot be pumped too much by a 308.
With certain solid bullets one needs to look for the lighter bullets that can strike at high speeds.
Because they are of stout nature the sectional density is not as critical yet the speed is wanted for effective activation of the bullet.
In other words, a 150gr can be a much better bullet than a heavier one if this can strike at fast speeds.
keep in mind even 1800fps is pretty low for the effect of that bullet so you will see huge penetration and pass through but not much energy
dumped. There might be an animal that can take that much penetration but not an elk, moose and obviously not a deer.
If you want to see larger channels with ideal penetration then look at lighter bullets.
Do not discard the 120 and 130 ttsx that can be driven at hyper speeds and are very effective on deer. This is what these bullets are
really designed for, thin skin animals to be injected at fast speeds and no matter if it is a 243, 260, 7-08 the weight is not as important
as the impact speed.
There are other solid bullets that seem to work better like some of the cutting edge HTM with nice coefficients but I am affraid there
is no enough history nor data to rely on for impacts at long range. I mean, when compared to a tested fragmentation one like the old heavy
Amax that has been so reliable at long range.

Read this...
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Homogenous+copper+bullets+can+be+inhumane.html

 

[1stmarine]

The 130gr TTSX at 4,000ft will strike at some very decent speeds up to 450 yards.
Keep in mind around 2,100fps not only is a decent minimum for the mechanical activation (wounding potential)
but also is more or less the minimum where you still see the hydrostatic shock with spitzer type small calibers.
Beyond that point you start to loose that factor too and have to rely more on expansion and wounding only.
That is why lighter for caliber bullets are so effective.



This is another one folks are starting to use more and you have a 140gr too both with a great
ballistics coefficient to weigh ratio. I think more research needs to be done on them but
originally this is looking very good. The bigger brothers for the largest magnums rely
on the same terminal design and principals for extreme long range hunting and they rack
up some pretty large, for those who can hit it that is another story.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-130gr-mth-match-tactical-hunting

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-140gr-mth-match-tactical-hunting

 

[H&Hhunter]

The advertised low end thresholds are not accurate and if you take a long shot you will see pin hole wounding that is not a humane way to shoot an animal.
I have seen this mistake made by inexperienced hunters and it is not pretty even at not so long distances.
The 180gr TSX and TTSX should be reserved for something that can move them fast like a Winchester magnum or WSM.
They take a lot of case capacity due to their length and that is why they cannot be pumped too much by a 308.
With certain solid bullets one needs to look for the lighter bullets that can strike at high speeds.
Because they are of stout nature the sectional density is not as critical yet the speed is wanted for effective activation of the bullet.
In other words, a 150gr can be a much better bullet than a heavier one if this can strike at fast speeds.
keep in mind even 1800fps is pretty low for the effect of that bullet so you will see huge penetration and pass through but not much energy
dumped. There might be an animal that can take that much penetration but not an elk, moose and obviously not a deer.
If you want to see larger channels with ideal penetration then look at lighter bullets.
Do not discard the 120 and 130 ttsx that can be driven at hyper speeds and are very effective on deer. This is what these bullets are
really designed for, thin skin animals to be injected at fast speeds and no matter if it is a 243, 260, 7-08 the weight is not as important
as the impact speed.
There are other solid bullets that seem to work better like some of the cutting edge HTM with nice coefficients but I am affraid there
is no enough history nor data to rely on for impacts at long range. I mean, when compared to a tested fragmentation one like the old heavy
Amax that has been so reliable at long range.

Read this...
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Homogenous+copper+bullets+can+be+inhumane.html

I've shot several elk with 180 Gr TSX our of a .30-06 at normal speeds, 2700 FPS or so. None have been at over 300 yards but they've been extremely effective kills, with excellent terminal performance.

 

[alsaqr]

i would not use the 180 grain Triple Shock bullet in the .308.

"The 180gr TSX and TTSX should be reserved for something that can move them fast like a Winchester magnum or WSM."

i have a Remington 700 in .30-06 with a 27" barrel and a long throat. My 180 Grain Triple Shock hand load makes 1.25-1.5" five shot groups at 100 yards.
The round:

https://i.imgur.com/kZggaxN.jpg

 

[1stmarine]

I've shot several elk with 180 Gr TSX our of a .30-06 at normal speeds, 2700 FPS or so. None have been at over 300 yards but they've been extremely effective kills, with excellent terminal performance.

They can work, in very trickly angles that bullet will go through a large animal no problems and large bones will help too.
It comes down to impact speed and body weight. with this frontal section, and sd, Below 2100fps the bullets are not that effective anymore even they say down to 1800fps.
I think the 3006 is a lot better because it takes these super long bullets better if you need that extra speed but one must be careful with range.
Like I said, SD and grain is not as important as cashing in impact speed with these type of bullets.
In many ways it is not different that some of the hardest bonded with teh difference that those iwth the same weight are shorter, can push
more speed and also have better SD that the barnes on average. ie: accubond, swift sirocco.
bottom line is to understand the bullet, the game anatomy and that speed at impact might give and advantage so one might estimate the ideal max range
to provide not just plenty of wounding but hydrostatic shock if possible and faster more humane kills.

 

[H&Hhunter]

While I don't totally disagree with your statement above First Marine. I'd be interested to know what your actual on game in the field experience is with TSX or TTSX bullets.

When you add in African game, Alaskan game, common lower 48 game and hogs I've had hundreds of kills with Barnes X and TSX bullets on everything from coyotes to Cape buffalo. With everything from a .270 to a .470 NE. I find your above statement to be somewhat flawed when it comes to actual in the field performance on game.

 

[1stmarine]

While I don't totally disagree with your statement above First Marine. I'd be interested to know what your actual on game in the field experience is with TSX or TTSX bullets.

When you add in African game, Alaskan game, common lower 48 game and hogs I've had hundreds of kills with Barnes X and TSX bullets on everything from coyotes to Cape buffalo. With everything from a .270 to a .470 NE. I find your above statement to be somewhat flawed when it comes to actual in the field performance on game.

I am not disagreeing with you.
Like I said many times the TTSX and TSX are wonderful bullets I never said otherwise but in the small calibers they work best at high impact velocities.
When you increase section and frontal area the whole dynamic changes. A 470 even with a flat metplat w/o expanding penetrates very well and also
displaces lots of water instantly upon entering the body of the animal so we cannot compare a 270 solid like a TTSX that relies on speed to deploy the
parachute with a massive .470 from an african magnum that has to hit with the momentum and penetration of a freight train if you are shooting one of
those very large animals.
I am have been a hunter for 35 years. I cannot compare to many other hunters or professionals who spend more time outdoors than they do under a roof.
I have shot a lot small game, lots of deer and and a few pretty hard to kill animals and I also hunt overseas but never in Africa.
I have been hunting with others who lost game due to not using the proper bullets for the job. I have lost game too like everyone but not due to using
a solid bullet driven a slow speeds. I mean, there are some that have been design for subsonic and slower speeds. Even Barnes has changed some
of them for things like the anemic blackout that lacks on speed.

The ballistics is also a passion of mine not just to experiment with different bullets but to discuss with others that have experience both hunting
and doing terminal ballistics tests. I am an engineer and have my own software and tools that I developed through the years to do research and
also support several knowledge bases and resources. I also develop new calibers and not just the theory and concept design but I actually build them
and we put them to work here and abroad. It is not a huge enterprise but I have given seasoned hunters specific purpose design cartridges and loads
to tackle game and other objectives.

I think the best thing is not to generalize but to talk about specific bullets and objectives. The 180gr TTSX is a very large bullet and less than ideal for
a 308 Winchester for most of the uses one finds for that round and grain combination.

Better on a 30-06 and perfect for a magnum. With all that said I am not saying it can never be used by those because if you need lots of penetration
then you still have a 180gr for a moose or even a large bear on a close encounter and they will work and go through heavy bones as prescribed, no doubt.
So one might reserve that to closer ranges to preserve impact speed but in a purpose hunt with those animals someone most likely is going to have a
larger caliber and more power. And any of those for a deer is not the ideal.

But a sp bonded for example will work similarly and give the smaller case a lot more
speed and momentum on the target just because a 30 cal TTSX takes up so much % of the case space in something like the 308.

The 308 winchester with a 130gr TTSX behaves effectively like a 260, 270, 7-08 driving similar bullet grains at comparable speeds. On these bores
and with these bullets you will see they work best above the 2100fps (give and take) threshold where you also still see clear effects of hydrostatic shock.
Belo that one has to rely more on the wounding potential that should be great but also more times than not giving the chance the animal bucking
and taking off running. Of course unless one goes for the forebones that will also help with energy transfer and most likely will anchor the animal but
will not be the meat saver shot. At this latitude on a deer a smaller bullet injected in the plexus will be fast because of the CNS disruption. now,
a lot of people do not go there to save the meat.

In large elk one might be better off with a 150gr but still keep an eye on the max range for the ideal impact speed.

I hope this makes sense.

...Again we can talk about specific loads and specific game otherwise it is easy to get tangled in the weeds.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I am not disagreeing with you.
Like I said many times the TTSX and TSX are wonderful bullets I never said otherwise but in the small calibers they work best at high impact velocities.
When you increase section and frontal area the whole dynamic changes. A 470 even with a flat metplat w/o expanding penetrates very well and also
displaces lots of water instantly upon entering the body of the animal so we cannot compare a 270 solid like a TTSX that relies on speed to deploy the
parachute with a massive .470 from an african magnum that has to hit with the momentum and penetration of a freight train if you are shooting one of
those very large animals.
I am have been a hunter for 35 years. I cannot compare to many other hunters or professionals who spend more time outdoors than they do under a roof.
I have shot a lot small game, lots of deer and and a few pretty hard to kill animals and I also hunt overseas but never in Africa.
I have been hunting with others who lost game due to not using the proper bullets for the job. I have lost game too like everyone but not due to using
a solid bullet driven a slow speeds. I mean, there are some that have been design for subsonic and slower speeds. Even Barnes has changed some
of them for things like the anemic blackout that lacks on speed.

The ballistics is also a passion of mine not just to experiment with different bullets but to discuss with others that have experience both hunting
and doing terminal ballistics tests. I am an engineer and have my own software and tools that I developed through the years to do research and
also support several knowledge bases and resources. I also develop new calibers and not just the theory and concept design but I actually build them
and we put them to work here and abroad. It is not a huge enterprise but I have given seasoned hunters specific purpose design cartridges and loads
to tackle game and other objectives.

I think the best thing is not to generalize but to talk about specific bullets and objectives. The 180gr TTSX is a very large bullet and less than ideal for
a 308 Winchester for most of the uses one finds for that round and grain combination.

Better on a 30-06 and perfect for a magnum. With all that said I am not saying it can never be used by those because if you need lots of penetration
then you still have a 180gr for a moose or even a large bear on a close encounter and they will work and go through heavy bones as prescribed, no doubt.
So one might reserve that to closer ranges to preserve impact speed but in a purpose hunt with those animals someone most likely is going to have a
larger caliber and more power. And any of those for a deer is not the ideal.

But a sp bonded for example will work similarly and give the smaller case a lot more
speed and momentum on the target just because a 30 cal TTSX takes up so much % of the case space in something like the 308.

The 308 winchester with a 130gr TTSX behaves effectively like a 260, 270, 7-08 driving similar bullet grains at comparable speeds. On these bores
and with these bullets you will see they work best above the 2100fps (give and take) threshold where you also still see clear effects of hydrostatic shock.
Belo that one has to rely more on the wounding potential that should be great but also more times than not giving the chance the animal bucking
and taking off running. Of course unless one goes for the forebones that will also help with energy transfer and most likely will anchor the animal but
will not be the meat saver shot. At this latitude on a deer a smaller bullet injected in the plexus will be fast because of the CNS disruption. now,
a lot of people do not go there to save the meat.

In large elk one might be better off with a 150gr but still keep an eye on the max range for the ideal impact speed.

I hope this makes sense.

...Again we can talk about specific loads and specific game otherwise it is easy to get tangled in the weeds.

And I am not disagreeing with you either. What you say makes perfect sense. I was with a buddy who shot a large bodied cow elk with his .30-06 using 150 gr TTSX. At 339 yards he got a complete behind the shoulder pass through. With monolithic bullets it's perfectly acceptable to step down in weight, in fact beneficial in many circumstances as you mentioned. I also 100% agree with you on smaller calibers and X bullets.

 

[horsey300]

I haven't played with the .30 cal offerings as my only .30s are a .30-30 .30-40 and the wm. I have played with the Barnes 53 gr .22 and the 6 mm etip 86 gr bullets. My findings correlate with the "keep the velocity up" school of thought. They make for VERY nice penetration and with proper placement they work well for hides, stay off the shoulder at close-medium ranges and bust the big bones at longer ranges with yotes. They obviously have higher b.c.s and that makes it nice for yotes on the prairie but honestly I haven't yet tried them on larger game. From the results thus far, the .243 will probably pack them for black bear in a couple years with a range limit to impact velocities above 2200fps and a soon to be acquired semi auto .270 wsm will carry the 150 Barnes for hog loads up close just cuz. I think that for general purpose game hunting the bonded bullets are a more "perfect/magic" bullet but the monometals still have a place too.