Kimber vs Ed Brown vs Dan Wesson

[MCMXI]

all of the talk about DW being luck of the draw is kind of a turn off, so it may end up being the Kobra Carry all the way

If you read Dave Severns' reviews, you would think that every Dan Wesson comes perfect from the factory. I've had the opposite experience and if you've read my posts above and looked at the photos, you'll realize that they're still a production gun and both of mine had significant issues that I was able to fix myself. Other than replacing the slim line grip bushings with standard height grip bushings and replacing the grips with VZ ETC grips, I'm done with the Valor and V-Bob. I've resolved all of the issues and have installed new Ed Brown Videki triggers in both (I don't like solid triggers). I had to deburr and polish the inside the frame to prevent burrs from scratching the triggers during installation. Something else that isn't a problem with Ed Brown 1911s.

The last issue to resolve was to figure out the problem with the Valor thumb safety. I stripped the Valor down and first checked that the TS had adequate frame clearance which it did. I inspected the TS plunger and it was showing way too much wear for a new pistol. I then inspected the dimple in the TS where the plunger resides when the safety is off and it looked odd compared to the V-Bob dimple. It looked like the Valor dimple didn't extend down to the edge enough so I used a dremel/file to extend the dimple at the 6 o'clock position so that the plunger would slide out more easily. That corrected the problem and now the safety snaps on/off with normal effort. Here are some photos.

Valor thumb safety plunger (top) shown with new Ed Brown parts (bottom).

Here are some photos comparing the perfect V-Bob thumb safety to the Valor thumb safety. Valor (left) and V-Bob (right). The "dimples" look different.

Here's a summary of the issues I found with my 2010 Valor and 2010 V-Bob.

Valor

• I.D. of barrel bushing +0.006" compared to barrel

• Noticeable movement of the barrel when in battery when pushing down on the barrel hood - fixed with +0.002" EB bushing

• Thumb safety very hard to engage - fixed by extending the dimple in the TS at 6 o'clock position

• Burrs inside the frame gouged magazines making them hard to insert and also prevented them from dropping free - fixed by deburring with file and polishing sharp edges with emery paper

• Burrs inside the frame scratch trigger during removal/installation - fixed by deburring with file and polishing sharp edges with emery paper

V-Bob

• I.D. of the barrel bushing +0.007" compared to barrel

• Noticeable movement of the barrel when in battery when pushing down on the barrel hood - fixed with +0.002" EB bushing

• Magazine release not working properly making it very hard to insert magazines - fixed by filing and polishing the mag release where it engages the magazine

• Burrs inside the frame gouging magazines making them hard to insert and also preventing them from dropping free - fixed by deburring with file and polishing edges with emery paper

• Burrs inside the frame scratch trigger during removal/installation - fixed by deburring with file and polishing sharp edges with emery paper

I will end by saying that a Dan Wesson Valor or V-Bob that arrives with a +0.002" bushing and none of the problems described above is a very, very good 1911. I am now happy with my DWs but for the price wouldn't have expected to have any of the issues described. I'm most likely done buying DWs but will add to my 1911 collection with more Ed Browns. I have too many other projects going on to spend $2,000 on a 1911 only to discover that I need to spend money and a lot of effort to get it to where it should be from the start.

One final thought ... everyone should handle an Ed Brown and DW before buying. You may be surprised by the significant difference in feel due to frame size, grip size and front strap checkering. Now I know why DWs ship with VZ slim line grips!!

 

[ttheel]

Absolutely love my Dan Wesson VBOB. In my opinion the Dan Wesson Valor series is the best production 1911's on the market.

 

[Zerodefect]

Figured I'd also try my hand at measuring things and checking all the things I didn't know were even hand fit a day ago.

My Valors barrel is no where near as tight as what Dave found in his vid. With my slide stripped except for barrel and bushing my barrel deosn't stick, it rattles around like every other 1911 I've ever seen when gravity lets it fall out.
If I turn the bushing sideways the barrel deos bind up and stick in then. Then it's just like the video. But with the bushing in right the barrel isn't super tight like in the vid. Unless I'm missing something.

Also with the barrel in the slide, I get no forward/back play. No side to side at the barrel hood tail. My bushing deosn't quite have any play, but it isn't super tight to the barrel either.

The bushing is realy tight to the slide though. My hands are twice the size of Daves (master tech side effect) and I can't hardly move my bushing without a wrench.

Slide to frame, I have no felt play anywhere. Not a little......None.

So after a long week of carry I finally made it home from my hotel. Let's strip mine down for measurements to see how it stacks up to the others.

Ok, found my Mitutoyo digi calipers. (no old school dials for me). I can add pics tomarrow if any of ya want. I left my camera in my work truck outside and I'm too beat to get it.

Valor Bushing ID=0.582"to 0.584"
Barrel OD=0.580" to 0.5805"
So my barrel to bushing play is +.002 to +.0045"

Note it was hard to get consitant bushing ID readings. Calipers are better at OD, so I used the largest numbers I could repeat. i put a little lube on my calipers so that I could be more consistant with the force I was using.

I also noted that the bushing ID is not quite round top to bottom vs. a hair different than left right (no idea why). It can drop as tight as .582"

.5825" was my most consistant bushing ID measurement.
My best guess at this Valors actual barrel/bushing play is around +.003"
I hope this is ok?

Going on to the barrel hood tail thing.

Valor Barrel hood tail=0.4380"
Slide Barrel hood tail slot=0.440"
Barrel hood tail play= +.002" to +.003"

Slide stop lever=.200"
SS Hole in frame=.2001"
Play= +0.001???

Impossible press fit. Digi calipers suck at measuring holes. There is no play at all between these two parts, but my reading definately shows that my digi calipers are limited on small holes. It was hard to get a hole reading that was actually more than the SS lever. Fitted? Or wrong measureing tool? Make your own conclusion.

Barrel link hole=.203"
Slide stop=.200"
Play=+.003"

Conclusions:

-this was a fun experiment. Thanks to 1858 and Dave for the idea. I think I may have learned something new.
-measuring stuff isn't easy. Some small holes are very hard to consistantly measure. OD is fairly easy though. Measureing down to .001" is a bit of an art. Which is why I noted the tolerances of my skill (or lack there of) above.

-I'm lucky. I can't feel any play in any of my parts. I got one of the good Valors for sure.

-My barrel deosn't stick like in Daves vid, but there isn't any play either. Possibly a good thing. Not sure about the "click" bit, I only have 3 1911's to compare that to, and I'm not sure exactly what Dave was referring to.

-I found a little more appreciation for what goes into a 1911. To get all these metal surfaces to fit with not the slightest click of felt play is impressive.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

those issues are unacceptable at DW prices, and they occurred on two different guns as well.

"pretty" doesn't cut it for me. i expect consistent quality and attention to detail at the price point.

i've personally seen really bad machining on DW's, and a friend that sent his in do to poor grip safety fit, only to get it back with an even worse fit. he had to pay shipping too.

I know people on the DW subforum of 1911 for think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but i haven't seen that.

 

[ttheel]

those issues are unacceptable at DW prices, and they occurred on two different guns as well.

"pretty" doesn't cut it for me. i expect consistent quality and attention to detail at the price point.

i've personally seen really bad machining on DW's, and a friend that sent his in do to poor grip safety fit, only to get it back with an even worse fit. he had to pay shipping too.

I know people on the DW subforum of 1911 for think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but i haven't seen that.

Mr Severns is a well respected person in the industry and he disagree's completely with you as do I. He sells different brands, including Les Baer so he has no dog in the fight so to speak. I have read countless reviews from him about many Dan Wesson's he has taken apart and "hard hatted" etc and he never says the things you are saying. I am a Dan Wesson owner and see none of the issues you speak of. Mine is one of the finest handguns I have ever laid my hands on and speaking with many Dan Wesson owners regularly I never get negative responses. Most folks end up buying 2 or 3 after purchasing their first one they are so impressed. I have even heard Mr. Severns say that the Valor series has "better" internal parts than Les Baer guns. A direct quote from Dave in one of his reviews on the 1911 forum:
"I have been known to wryly tell clients that “the worst quality part in a Dan Wesson is an Ed Brown part.'" While I know he is kidding with that comment, what he is trying to say is that today's DW's are built from the best materials available and that for a production gun you just dont find that today.

 

[9mmepiphany]

"I have been known to wryly tell clients that “the worst quality part in a Dan Wesson is an Ed Brown part.'" While I know he is kidding with that comment

I'll bet he was referring to the thumb safety...or more accurately the plate that the thumb safety lever is mounted on.

There are several custom 1911 smiths who will tell you that that plate is thinner than they are comfortable with. Due to manufacturing variances and stacking tolerances, it is possible for the plunger to jump the plate and tie up the slide

 

[Rinspeed]

what he is trying to say is that today's DW's are built from the best materials available

Lay off that COTEP Kool-Aid for a little while before you don't have a brain left.

 

[MCMXI]

I'm lucky. I can't feel any play in any of my parts. I got one of the good Valors for sure.

I not sure if you're lucky or I'm unlucky. If the vast majority of Valors are excellent from the factory, then it's the latter. Based on what I've read and what I've bought, there's less "luck" involved buying a Dan Wesson compared to many other production 1911s. This has to be the case or else how can Dave Severns review so many good Dan Wesson 1911s, unless he's cherry picking them which I'm sure he's not. He could have an agenda but I'll take off my paranoid hat for the moment and assume that he doesn't.

At this point I'm pleased with the Valors although as I stated, for close to $4,000 they shouldn't have shipped with the issues that I described. But it's 2011 and demand has increased for 1911s due to the 100 year anniversary, so maybe quality took a slight hit ... who knows?!! As for the Valors, how about some of the good stuff. For instance, the slide to frame fit on both are easily on a par with my Ed Browns and are light years ahead of my Kimber Tactical Entry II which is by far the loosest fitting of all of my 1911s (damn thing runs good though). My new Raptor has a very good slide/frame fit but that could be luck as much as anything. The quality of the Valor components including the hammer, sear, disconnector, thumb safety, slide stop, barrel, slide, frame, sights etc is excellent. The overall attention to the exterior blending of various parts is 95% of the way to an Ed Brown. The black treatment is a lot better than the Gen III coating used by Ed Brown although Ed Brown coats all of the parts. And let's not forget, even after the price increases on the 2010 models, Dan Wessons are still cheaper than Ed Browns.

I'm here to tell it like it is with no agenda, and to that end I will agree with anyone here who thinks that a good Dan Wesson is every bit as a good as a good Ed Brown. Honestly, a stainless V-Bob for $1,600 is an incredible value compared to an Ed Brown stainless Special Forces Carry or Kobra Carry at close to $800 more, particularly if the V-Bob shows up without the issues I described. $1,900 for a black V-Bob or $1,800 for a black Valor is still a very good value compared to $2,350 for a Gen III Special Forces Carry/Kobra Carry or $2,150 for a Gen III Special Forces/Kobra.

At the end of the day, I feel fortunate in that I own both Ed Brown and Dan Wesson 1911s and the same is also true for the two Kimbers that I have. I should point out that I could have easily contacted Dan Wesson and have them address the issues, but if I can do something myself that's usually the path I'll take. I stated that I won't buy any more Dan Wessons but that's a little unfair since I already own the two models that I like. If Dan Wesson offers a new model such as a V-Bob with different front strap checkering and slide serrations, I'd take a good, long look.

 

[Zerodefect]

I'm hopeing DW copies the LB Monolith heavyweight next. I think that would be another home run copy.

What is Cotep anyways? I keep hearing Cotep this, Cotep that, whenever DW's are mentioned. Some kind of DW swear word or something? Code?

 

[MCMXI]

Zerodefect, while searching for a definition of COTEP (Congregation Of The Enlightened Pistolero) which is a DW "club", I took a closer look at Dave Severns' website and found this (see below) ... I'm kind of shocked by this to be honest and it may explain why both of my DWs arrived with a number of issues. I think it's safe to say that Dave Severns doesn't review "blems" or "seconds".

https://severnscustom.com/New_1911s_For_Sale.html



*AN IMPORTANT NOTE REGARDING SALES OF DAN WESSON PISTOLS:

- 100% OF THE DAN WESSONS SOLD AT SEVERNS CUSTOM ARE BRAND NEW MANUFACTURE.
- ALL ARE "FIRST QUALITY" PISTOLS, WITH NO "BLEMS" SOLD.
- FWIW, CZ/DAN WESSON CHOOSES TO MARKET 'SECONDS' (OR "BLEMS") AS WELL AS FIRST QUALITY MERCHANDISE, BUT WE REFUSE TO CARRY SECONDS. I SIMPLY CANNOT SUPPORT THE PHILOSOPHY OFSELLING A WEAPON THAT'S A "SECOND". TO EACH HIS/HER OWN.
- AT SEVERNS CUSTOM, WE HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE! UNLIKE SOME OF OUR COMPETITORS, WE DO NOT SELL OLD STOCK PISTOLS AS "NEW". IF IT'S AN OLDER MANUFACTURED GUN, WE DECLARE THAT CLEARLY AND UP-FRONT. ALSO, WE WILL NOT SELL YOU A "BLEM" DISGUISED AS A 'FIRST QUALITY' GUN, PERIOD. AS IN ALL THINGS, YOU DO GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. BUYER BEWARE!

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Got to figure there are a lot of variables involved in putting a 1911 together. How many per day per worker, Monday morning and Friday afternoon pistols, how much actual part fitting is involved. And, whether the person doing the assembly has a good grasp on how all the parts actualy work together.

Quality parts, and quality fitting produce a quality pistol. There are exceptions though: "luck of the draw", "Wednesday builds" "master vs apprentice", etc.

Another variable are older pistols, the ones built just as a maker was on the cusp of making it big, or made back in the day when more fitting was allowed. (before the bean counters came along)

Things to consider in the this vs that vs the other......

 

[Zerodefect]

Zerodefect, while searching for a definition of COTEP (Congregation Of The Enlightened Pistolero) which is a DW "club", I took a closer look at Dave Severns' website and found this (see below) ... I'm kind of shocked by this to be honest and it may explain why both of my DWs arrived with a number of issues. I think it's safe to say that Dave Severns doesn't review "blems" or "seconds".

https://severnscustom.com/New_1911s_For_Sale.html



*AN IMPORTANT NOTE REGARDING SALES OF DAN WESSON PISTOLS:

- 100% OF THE DAN WESSONS SOLD AT SEVERNS CUSTOM ARE BRAND NEW MANUFACTURE.
- ALL ARE "FIRST QUALITY" PISTOLS, WITH NO "BLEMS" SOLD.
- FWIW, CZ/DAN WESSON CHOOSES TO MARKET 'SECONDS' (OR "BLEMS") AS WELL AS FIRST QUALITY MERCHANDISE, BUT WE REFUSE TO CARRY SECONDS. I SIMPLY CANNOT SUPPORT THE PHILOSOPHY OFSELLING A WEAPON THAT'S A "SECOND". TO EACH HIS/HER OWN.
- AT SEVERNS CUSTOM, WE HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE! UNLIKE SOME OF OUR COMPETITORS, WE DO NOT SELL OLD STOCK PISTOLS AS "NEW". IF IT'S AN OLDER MANUFACTURED GUN, WE DECLARE THAT CLEARLY AND UP-FRONT. ALSO, WE WILL NOT SELL YOU A "BLEM" DISGUISED AS A 'FIRST QUALITY' GUN, PERIOD. AS IN ALL THINGS, YOU DO GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. BUYER BEWARE!

True. But I don't think he's padding the guns he chooses to review. He'd probally gather a bunch of attention if he could find more problems, being that he's in the business of fixing said problems.

DW sells a ton of blems. They have a Y stamped near the serial number. It basicly means that someone knicked the finish. So he probally got sick of everybody asking if he was selling blems.

My local shop won't carry blems either. Which stinks, I want a blem CCO.
I run Kydex so all my 1911's become "blems" really quick. I probally have the record for most holster wear on a Valor right now.

The guys I shoot with, asked last week, "Didn't you buy this 1911 new?" :banghead:

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

There are several custom 1911 smiths who will tell you that that plate is thinner than they are comfortable with. Due to manufacturing variances and stacking tolerances, it is possible for the plunger to jump the plate and tie up the slide

i noticed this as well on an ed brown safety i fit to my champion operator. it is pretty thin. hopefully it'll hold up, there doesn't seem to be a bunch of folks complaining online about it (that i know of lol)

 

[9mmepiphany]

I only heard it from a Custom 1911 smith. It was in response to the question of why many smiths don't offer/use the Brown thumb safety.

A good Custom smith usually guarantees they work for life, they like to stay away from parts that might fail and reflect badly on their build quality

 

[MCMXI]

I only heard it from a Custom 1911 smith. It was in response to the question of why many smiths don't offer/use the Brown thumb safety.

A good Custom smith usually guarantees they work for life, they like to stay away from parts that might fail and reflect badly on their build quality

I have no loyalty to a defective product but I find it hard to believe that Ed Brown would risk his reputation on a $30 part. Is Ed Brown seeing lots of returns due to failed thumb safeties? Up until the 2010 models, Dan Wesson used the Ed Brown thumb safety so have they had lots of issues with it? I'd expect to see plenty of information about this on the DW forums but haven't so far. I've read some reviews by Dave Severns on DWs that he's "improved" for customers, which usually means a new barrel bushing but no mention of replacing the Ed Brown thumb safety. Admittedly I'm not objective about this since I've installed three Ed Brown thumb safeties in my 1911s. I like them, they work really well and so far I haven't had any issues. My USPSA gun gets a lot of use and the thumb safety is on/off/on/off/on/off etc during a match, so if a problem existed I would expect to see some evidence by now. That said, if I do have problems, I'll spend another $100 or so and replace all of the EB thumb safeties with another manufacturer in a heartbeat. Reliability is my #1 priority.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I would think that it might be reflected in how many Custom 1911 smiths are installing the Brown thumb safety in their builds.

It was my first choice for my last build and when doing research I kept running into smiths advising the use of other choices. It has been my experience that professionals will seldom speak poorly of their peers, or their products, but they will recommend alternatives...I've found it is like a code you have to figure out, much like Japanese businessmen replying with, "it will be difficult", rather than, "we can't".

I think it is a matter of stacked tolerances, between the safety, the frame. the plunger tube and the plunger. I have a Brown on my latest build (he wasn't happy, but he gave in), which did have the plunger jam the safety during testing, but it was corrected before delivery. He did tell me what to keep an eye on and made me promise to change to a different manufacturer if it reoccurred

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

i fit a wilson bulletproof thumb safety to my EMP40. i like those a lot better than brown, but man those things are pricey lol

 

[Casefull]

I recently ordered another kimber in 10mm. I looked at some of the custom 45s and could afford one but I really cannot see that they would be 4 thousand better. The 3 kimber 45s I have shoot and function great.

 

[Zerodefect]

I would think that it might be reflected in how many Custom 1911 smiths are installing the Brown thumb safety in their builds.

It was my first choice for my last build and when doing research I kept running into smiths advising the use of other choices. It has been my experience that professionals will seldom speak poorly of their peers, or their products, but they will recommend alternatives...I've found it is like a code you have to figure out, much like Japanese businessmen replying with, "it will be difficult", rather than, "we can't".

I think it is a matter of stacked tolerances, between the safety, the frame. the plunger tube and the plunger. I have a Brown on my latest build (he wasn't happy, but he gave in), which did have the plunger jam the safety during testing, but it was corrected before delivery. He did tell me what to keep an eye on and made me promise to change to a different manufacturer if it reoccurred

Nah, gunsmiths are getting lazy. The Ed Brown TS is notoriously hard to fit.
This is a picture of my Ed Brown TS out of the package:





















I spent many hours grinding that down with a Dremel, India stone, and Arkansas stone until it worked. Next time I'm sending it out. Smiths only carge $30-80 to fit a TS......Money well spent.

Seriously though.....my EB TS hardly even looked like a safety. I don't know why they oversize the working parts so much. There can't be a 1911 out there that really requires a fit that huge?

 

[Greg528iT]

Nice engine head. It looks NOTHING like a thumb safety.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

Nah, gunsmiths are getting lazy. The Ed Brown TS is notoriously hard to fit.

it's as easy as any other thumb safety.

brown's grip safety is what takes a little more than most to fit

 

[ol' scratch]

I do love my Kimber, but if I had the money I would go with the Ed Brown. Beautiful pistol.

 

[N.D.]

orionengnr

My experience W/ DW CS re. my DW PM7 was also unpleasant.