Knife fighting techniques
- Thread starter sakimoto
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sm
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John,
That is how it was shared by some folks familiar with the initials OSS and some other interesting folks.
Back in the day...
That is how it was shared by some folks familiar with the initials OSS and some other interesting folks.
Back in the day...
mercop
Member.
The funny thing is that even though hydraulic is the slowest gun many gun carriers believe that because they are carrying a gun with a caliber starting in 4...that their attacker will burst into flames. I am sure that others here have seen in force on force that when it is impact or edged weapon vs gun the defender can have a tendency to freeze in place. I believe this is because of previous training that concentrated on gun vs gun since, during which people tend to create distance on both side. With contact distance weapons they keep going even with just momentum.- George
Well, I know that relatively peaceful, light-bodied whitetail deer should be left alone to bleed out for half an hour after I put a hunting round into them- and I've seen one buck, solidly hit with a good hunting round, who refused to believe he was dead when I walked up 30 minutes later.
A CNS shot took that one out. After he jumped up and ran.
Why would I believe a determined and much more dangerous adversary would be any less tough?
George, I'm a firm believer in understanding how to use a firearm as an impact tool. Not because it's most effectively used this way, but because mechanical devices malfunction or run dry. But they are still usually pieces of metal that you're already holding while you're being attacked. Firearm as impact tool is just another tool in the box, hopefully one you'll never have to use.
J
A CNS shot took that one out. After he jumped up and ran.
Why would I believe a determined and much more dangerous adversary would be any less tough?
George, I'm a firm believer in understanding how to use a firearm as an impact tool. Not because it's most effectively used this way, but because mechanical devices malfunction or run dry. But they are still usually pieces of metal that you're already holding while you're being attacked. Firearm as impact tool is just another tool in the box, hopefully one you'll never have to use.
J
My personal view is that my EDC knife is only intended for serious SHTF situations. If I can run, Im going to at the first chance.
That being said, if I was in a situation where it was blade vs. blade, there is no one proven strategy that will work every time. I would swing like crazy to make the BG lean back a little, kick hard at the shins, then if he leans forward a little to defend against another kick, get close fast and let the blade find any unprotected area.
Thats my take on things. Im sure that my plan would NOT go as planned, but at least I would not be standing there peeing my pants in fear while things get way out of hand.
That being said, if I was in a situation where it was blade vs. blade, there is no one proven strategy that will work every time. I would swing like crazy to make the BG lean back a little, kick hard at the shins, then if he leans forward a little to defend against another kick, get close fast and let the blade find any unprotected area.
Thats my take on things. Im sure that my plan would NOT go as planned, but at least I would not be standing there peeing my pants in fear while things get way out of hand.
TimboKhan
Member
Word. Once again, you have stated my feelings as well as I could have.
mercop
Member.
I have hit people with my gun. Works well, a pistol punch to the chest gets the point across.
Knife fighting is using too much effort to commit suicide
Pretty much if someone wants to attack you with a knife, they're not going to want to duel. He's not going to attack while he thinks you have a good chance of defending yourself. He's going to sneak up and then get stab happy on you while his homies hold you down. (see minute 1:47 in the video here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92smVb1jWzw
You're going to be too busy trying to get him off you to think about which knife or gun is going to be your excalibur weapon of defense.
Cops and security professionals excepted, because they have to intervene in dangerous situations. If you're getting stabbed, you have already made too many dumbass mistakes in one day for a premium superweapon to help you.
Pretty much if someone wants to attack you with a knife, they're not going to want to duel. He's not going to attack while he thinks you have a good chance of defending yourself. He's going to sneak up and then get stab happy on you while his homies hold you down. (see minute 1:47 in the video here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92smVb1jWzw
You're going to be too busy trying to get him off you to think about which knife or gun is going to be your excalibur weapon of defense.
Cops and security professionals excepted, because they have to intervene in dangerous situations. If you're getting stabbed, you have already made too many dumbass mistakes in one day for a premium superweapon to help you.
Some of you are missing the point (no pun intended)
Yes, by all means: if attacked by someone with a knife, shoot him. Shoot him many, many times. Of course that always works best if you have a gun.
My point is that responding to a question about knife fighting techniques (or stick fighting or baseball bat fighting or bare knuckle fighting or or or...) with "The best knife to take to a knife fight is a gun" is like never wearing your seatbelt because you don't PLAN on being in an accident. The OP's question presumes that for whatever reason, he isn't armed with a gun. There are several good reasons for having at least some familiarity with the use of a knife in close quarter combat. Two of the most valid are:
(1) Sometimes travel makes it impossible to take a gun along. Alternative weapons may be the only option. That might mean having a knife 'made' for combat tucked away in a piece of checked luggage or even ducking into a store or outdoor market and buying a "throwaway", i.e. a sharp kitchen knife.
(2) Learning to use or at least developing a familiarity with other kinds of weapons is useful in recognizing and gauging threats from people armed with those other kinds of weapons.
As for the OP, the thing about knives is that in many ways they are an extension of your body (vs. a projection of power that a gun offers). As such and like any other form of hand-to-hand combat, the only way to learn is by doing and developing motor memory through lots of repetition. In other words, you'll have to find some sparring partners who don't mind roughing it up on a routine basis. Obviously you can't start slashing one another but wooden training knives and body protection can give you an idea of what it might be like; of course, such sparring will be without the pain and shock of being cut for which there's really no training available. But sparring with wooden knives (or whatever) will help you understand that knives share something in common with Karate or Boxing or whatever else: YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO HIT THE GUY FOR YOUR AMAZINGLY DEVASTATING WEAPON TO WORK whether it's a rock hard fist or a razor sharp blade. Sparring will hopefully help you grasp how hard it is to stab or slash someone without being cut yourself.
The cardinal rules of killing with a knife:
- Keep your knife close to your side, not stuck out in front like a spear.
- Strike first.
- Strike many times.
- Continue to strike even after you've been struck.
I call them "cardinal" because you don't have to really have any training to execute those rules.
The secondary rules of killing with a knife:
- Move in such a manner that you come at him from his unarmed side and try to attack his lower back/kidneys
- If possible and even if only temporarily, immobilize him by grabbing him and trapping his limbs so that you have the best shots (i.e. his lower back and kidneys) even if it means your arm that is doing the immobilization is cut.
I call these "secondary' because they depend on several factors over which you may have little control; i.e. you'll need to practice closing the distance and trapping and if he's a lot stronger than you, you may not be able to effectively immobilize him.
Jim Bowie was a celebrated knife fighter. There's probably a correlation to the fact that he was also relatively large for the day and age. In the Vidalia Sand Bar incident, one of his victims succeeded in stabbing Bowie with a cane sword but it didn't incapacitate Bowie who then closed the distance proceeded to carve the other guy up. In short, a strong, fast, larger and determined opponent isn't going to play around and do the "Dance of Death" with you with fancy-smancy moves and blade on blade theatrics (like Steven Seagal and Tommy Lee Jones flashy 'chink! chink! chink! chink!' with sparks flying nonsense near the end of UNDER SIEGE)
If you really do wind up in a knife on knife situation from which you cannot extricate yourself, then you have to steel your mind to seeing it through to the end. If you're going to run because you get cut then you probably could have and should have run BEFORE you got cut. But if you couldn't run and had to fight, see it through to the end.
Most knife fights aren't really "fights" so much as mugging since the knife vs. knife scenario rarely happens except in prison and maybe some 'third world countries' where blades are still the primary weapon. Even in those settings, it's rarely a case of 'knife vs. knife' since most knife attacks are sneak attacks on either an unarmed victim or an unsuspecting victim (or both).
So in summary, my advice is to get some training videos and practice. Video tape your sparring sessions. Be ready to be appalled at how silly you look flailing and swatting away. Then understand that if it ever does come down to a fight of knife vs. knife it'll probably come down to "The First With The Most".
Yes, by all means: if attacked by someone with a knife, shoot him. Shoot him many, many times. Of course that always works best if you have a gun.
My point is that responding to a question about knife fighting techniques (or stick fighting or baseball bat fighting or bare knuckle fighting or or or...) with "The best knife to take to a knife fight is a gun" is like never wearing your seatbelt because you don't PLAN on being in an accident. The OP's question presumes that for whatever reason, he isn't armed with a gun. There are several good reasons for having at least some familiarity with the use of a knife in close quarter combat. Two of the most valid are:
(1) Sometimes travel makes it impossible to take a gun along. Alternative weapons may be the only option. That might mean having a knife 'made' for combat tucked away in a piece of checked luggage or even ducking into a store or outdoor market and buying a "throwaway", i.e. a sharp kitchen knife.
(2) Learning to use or at least developing a familiarity with other kinds of weapons is useful in recognizing and gauging threats from people armed with those other kinds of weapons.
As for the OP, the thing about knives is that in many ways they are an extension of your body (vs. a projection of power that a gun offers). As such and like any other form of hand-to-hand combat, the only way to learn is by doing and developing motor memory through lots of repetition. In other words, you'll have to find some sparring partners who don't mind roughing it up on a routine basis. Obviously you can't start slashing one another but wooden training knives and body protection can give you an idea of what it might be like; of course, such sparring will be without the pain and shock of being cut for which there's really no training available. But sparring with wooden knives (or whatever) will help you understand that knives share something in common with Karate or Boxing or whatever else: YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO HIT THE GUY FOR YOUR AMAZINGLY DEVASTATING WEAPON TO WORK whether it's a rock hard fist or a razor sharp blade. Sparring will hopefully help you grasp how hard it is to stab or slash someone without being cut yourself.
The cardinal rules of killing with a knife:
- Keep your knife close to your side, not stuck out in front like a spear.
- Strike first.
- Strike many times.
- Continue to strike even after you've been struck.
I call them "cardinal" because you don't have to really have any training to execute those rules.
The secondary rules of killing with a knife:
- Move in such a manner that you come at him from his unarmed side and try to attack his lower back/kidneys
- If possible and even if only temporarily, immobilize him by grabbing him and trapping his limbs so that you have the best shots (i.e. his lower back and kidneys) even if it means your arm that is doing the immobilization is cut.
I call these "secondary' because they depend on several factors over which you may have little control; i.e. you'll need to practice closing the distance and trapping and if he's a lot stronger than you, you may not be able to effectively immobilize him.
Jim Bowie was a celebrated knife fighter. There's probably a correlation to the fact that he was also relatively large for the day and age. In the Vidalia Sand Bar incident, one of his victims succeeded in stabbing Bowie with a cane sword but it didn't incapacitate Bowie who then closed the distance proceeded to carve the other guy up. In short, a strong, fast, larger and determined opponent isn't going to play around and do the "Dance of Death" with you with fancy-smancy moves and blade on blade theatrics (like Steven Seagal and Tommy Lee Jones flashy 'chink! chink! chink! chink!' with sparks flying nonsense near the end of UNDER SIEGE)
If you really do wind up in a knife on knife situation from which you cannot extricate yourself, then you have to steel your mind to seeing it through to the end. If you're going to run because you get cut then you probably could have and should have run BEFORE you got cut. But if you couldn't run and had to fight, see it through to the end.
Most knife fights aren't really "fights" so much as mugging since the knife vs. knife scenario rarely happens except in prison and maybe some 'third world countries' where blades are still the primary weapon. Even in those settings, it's rarely a case of 'knife vs. knife' since most knife attacks are sneak attacks on either an unarmed victim or an unsuspecting victim (or both).
So in summary, my advice is to get some training videos and practice. Video tape your sparring sessions. Be ready to be appalled at how silly you look flailing and swatting away. Then understand that if it ever does come down to a fight of knife vs. knife it'll probably come down to "The First With The Most".
mercop
Member.
Folder into the Fight drill using Inverted Edge Tactics
You can change the drill to suit your needs. Usually takes about 1.5 minutes. A long 1.5 minutes. This was done during our class in Indianapolis earlier this month.
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You can change the drill to suit your needs. Usually takes about 1.5 minutes. A long 1.5 minutes. This was done during our class in Indianapolis earlier this month.
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[/URL]Hungry Seagull
member
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- Feb 19, 2009
- Messages
- 2,167
the chink chink chink chink movie scene was ok... but heaping drama bull for the unwashed masses; overly hollywood.
You want a crush? Go watch Rob Roy, I think it was a Scottish Fighter with a Broadsword who smashed a ballet dancer with a pointy thing in it.
You want a crush? Go watch Rob Roy, I think it was a Scottish Fighter with a Broadsword who smashed a ballet dancer with a pointy thing in it.
Rob Roy
Love the movie Rob Roy...but to be persnickety and accurate (as far as the movie goes), Rob 'Bad Boy' Roy and his claymore only defeated the Court Dandy with his light rapier by (Rob Roy) grabbing the latter's blade (while kneeling) and twisting it so that he (the court dandy) could not withdraw it for a followup strike. At that point, the court dandy would have been better off to have charged (closed the gap) Rob Roy and either used a dagger (assuming he had one) or applied a choke hold...or simply have run away though of course that would have so dishonored him his livelihood would have been lost.
How accurately that duel portrayed the results of claymore vs. rapier duel is debatable. Claymores and rapiers were not 'standardized' so it'd be hard to make any generalized claims about the efficiency of one vs. the other...but it is fair to know that a swordsman from England or the Continent armed with a rapier was more likely to have received at least basic training vs. the typical Scots Highlander armed with a claymore. Assuming the claymore and rapier were of fairly equal overall mass, a man armed with a longer albeit slimmer rapier would probably have at least a slight advantage.
Interestingly, whenever the early European powers began trade with Japan, duels between Samurai armed with the usual and Europeans armed with rapiers were often staged. Despite the invincibility conferred on Samurai by Hollywood, the winners in such duels were usually the Europeans via a straight stab to the Samurai's arm. In short, the straight line strike is usually the most likely to land, be it a weapon or a punch. For that reason, when raising armies, spears remained the weapon of choice for arming peasants and other 'non professional' conscripts/levies throughout most wars in most countries. Even a relatively untrained man can be effective with a stabbing/thrusting spear against all manner of professionals. Accurate representations of this simple fact are demonstrated in two movies that come to mind: THE SEVEN SAMURAI in which villagers are armed and receive rudimentary training with makeshift spears and -oddly enough- THE WIND AND THE LION. In that movie, Candace Bergen is kidnapped by Arab bandits around 1900. In one scene, she uses a long spear (actually a tent pole with a sharp metal point) to stab and kill a couple of bandits armed with swords. Her technique was simple and to the point (pun intended): a simple decisive thrust. A spear to the guts usually wins a fight.
Another interesting facet of this topic revolves around a study of stabbers and stickers in prison. A lot of the preference for a stabber vs. a sticker weapon design frequently falls along ethnic lines with White gangs usually preferring a larger edged weapon vs. a smaller slasher by Hispanic gangs and a pointed stabber by Black gangs. Of course, a lot of that depends on availability of raw materials and all types are used by different demographics, but the 'preference' for different forms of knives along racial lines is interesting.
Another observation in a hodgepodge of marginally related thoughts: ice picks usually make poor weapons unless they're really long, which they're usually not. The problem is that although they slide in easily, they don't cause the sort of trauma that is usually needed to incapacitate someone (severing nerves for pain and shock and severing arteries for loss of blood and unconsciousness). Something to think about if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to purchase an expedient weapon.
An anecdote about expedient weapons: 'Someone I know' was verbally menaced by pair of lowlifes in a Walmart parking lot on his way in. He was on a business trip in a state that did not recognize his CCW on a reciprocity agreement. He was then basically stalked in the Walmart by the lowlifes but not to a degree that was easily quantified (i.e. reportable to police). Besides purchasing the socks and related items he had gone there for, he also looked for a ball bat- but the store was sold out. So he bought a claw hammer with a long red phenolic handle for $10, a 5" long kitchen knife with a fairly thick and serrated blade for $5 and a box of nails for $1 (to go with the hammer in case 'something actually happened' and he was questioned about having just bought a hammer). Upon exiting the store on the way back to the rental car, the hammer was transferred from the bag to his right hand and shoulder and the knife (still in its little cardboard sleeve) moved to his left hip pocket. All of this was observed by the lowlifes who followed him out of the store and resumed their smack talk...but kept their distance. Those purchases were packed away in the checked baggage a few days later for the return home.
The point? Knives are always secondary weapons. Something with more range and lethality is preferred. But having some idea of how to use a knife when those other preferred weapons are not available is still a good idea.
Love the movie Rob Roy...but to be persnickety and accurate (as far as the movie goes), Rob 'Bad Boy' Roy and his claymore only defeated the Court Dandy with his light rapier by (Rob Roy) grabbing the latter's blade (while kneeling) and twisting it so that he (the court dandy) could not withdraw it for a followup strike. At that point, the court dandy would have been better off to have charged (closed the gap) Rob Roy and either used a dagger (assuming he had one) or applied a choke hold...or simply have run away though of course that would have so dishonored him his livelihood would have been lost.
How accurately that duel portrayed the results of claymore vs. rapier duel is debatable. Claymores and rapiers were not 'standardized' so it'd be hard to make any generalized claims about the efficiency of one vs. the other...but it is fair to know that a swordsman from England or the Continent armed with a rapier was more likely to have received at least basic training vs. the typical Scots Highlander armed with a claymore. Assuming the claymore and rapier were of fairly equal overall mass, a man armed with a longer albeit slimmer rapier would probably have at least a slight advantage.
Interestingly, whenever the early European powers began trade with Japan, duels between Samurai armed with the usual and Europeans armed with rapiers were often staged. Despite the invincibility conferred on Samurai by Hollywood, the winners in such duels were usually the Europeans via a straight stab to the Samurai's arm. In short, the straight line strike is usually the most likely to land, be it a weapon or a punch. For that reason, when raising armies, spears remained the weapon of choice for arming peasants and other 'non professional' conscripts/levies throughout most wars in most countries. Even a relatively untrained man can be effective with a stabbing/thrusting spear against all manner of professionals. Accurate representations of this simple fact are demonstrated in two movies that come to mind: THE SEVEN SAMURAI in which villagers are armed and receive rudimentary training with makeshift spears and -oddly enough- THE WIND AND THE LION. In that movie, Candace Bergen is kidnapped by Arab bandits around 1900. In one scene, she uses a long spear (actually a tent pole with a sharp metal point) to stab and kill a couple of bandits armed with swords. Her technique was simple and to the point (pun intended): a simple decisive thrust. A spear to the guts usually wins a fight.
Another interesting facet of this topic revolves around a study of stabbers and stickers in prison. A lot of the preference for a stabber vs. a sticker weapon design frequently falls along ethnic lines with White gangs usually preferring a larger edged weapon vs. a smaller slasher by Hispanic gangs and a pointed stabber by Black gangs. Of course, a lot of that depends on availability of raw materials and all types are used by different demographics, but the 'preference' for different forms of knives along racial lines is interesting.
Another observation in a hodgepodge of marginally related thoughts: ice picks usually make poor weapons unless they're really long, which they're usually not. The problem is that although they slide in easily, they don't cause the sort of trauma that is usually needed to incapacitate someone (severing nerves for pain and shock and severing arteries for loss of blood and unconsciousness). Something to think about if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to purchase an expedient weapon.
An anecdote about expedient weapons: 'Someone I know' was verbally menaced by pair of lowlifes in a Walmart parking lot on his way in. He was on a business trip in a state that did not recognize his CCW on a reciprocity agreement. He was then basically stalked in the Walmart by the lowlifes but not to a degree that was easily quantified (i.e. reportable to police). Besides purchasing the socks and related items he had gone there for, he also looked for a ball bat- but the store was sold out. So he bought a claw hammer with a long red phenolic handle for $10, a 5" long kitchen knife with a fairly thick and serrated blade for $5 and a box of nails for $1 (to go with the hammer in case 'something actually happened' and he was questioned about having just bought a hammer). Upon exiting the store on the way back to the rental car, the hammer was transferred from the bag to his right hand and shoulder and the knife (still in its little cardboard sleeve) moved to his left hip pocket. All of this was observed by the lowlifes who followed him out of the store and resumed their smack talk...but kept their distance. Those purchases were packed away in the checked baggage a few days later for the return home.
The point? Knives are always secondary weapons. Something with more range and lethality is preferred. But having some idea of how to use a knife when those other preferred weapons are not available is still a good idea.
Last edited:
mercop
Member.
When you want evidence you go to the source. The following items were seized by the Maryland DOC Special Operations Group from the old MD State Penn. I was there doing our Spontaneous Attack Survival for Corrections for them and the Intelligence unit. Improvised edged weapons are much more likely to be good stabbers than cutters. Targets are going to most likely be the face/neck and kidneys. Sometimes the upper back in hopes of getting a lung.
My favorite in the the picture though not a knife is the flail made with a pad lock, rolled up magazine and a piece of clothes line. Now this inmate was a thinker. A great improvised flail. Great for multiple opponents and defending against knives.
My favorite in the the picture though not a knife is the flail made with a pad lock, rolled up magazine and a piece of clothes line. Now this inmate was a thinker. A great improvised flail. Great for multiple opponents and defending against knives.
Hungry Seagull
member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2009
- Messages
- 2,167
The Inmate that created the Combination Lock Flail is probably a master of weapons art and would have stood to be extremely dangerous. All those weapons were nice but... the flail with the lock has to be the number one choice.
Must have taken alot of time and very minimal resources to make such a weapon happen.
I know that they should not be applauded for such weapons but that Flail in particular was something to behold.
The rest of the weapons look like they were taken out of carts or off bedframes or something and then somehow wrapped with some sort of paper. Dangerous yes in the right spots.
Regarding the man followed by low lifes and turning his Walmart into a weapons depot of oppertunity has demonstrated good thinking and improvision in a stressful situation. I doubt that these yapping low lifes would have been tolerated by me that long. Hats off to that traveler.
Regarding early weapons of battle, there was a pole about 12 feet and two inches across made from hardwood of good quality. Those were known as Pikes. You form a line of pikes and you can have that line probably two files deep hold off sword bearing infantry for a time. It will require either calvary or archers to break a pike line or even a Trecubet (Spelling?) if such weapons are around.
I think about weapons carried to sea in the late 1700's and early 1800's those were cutlasses which were weighted a little and designed to slice with some weight in a arc. You could do a bit of stabbing but not very well. If Im not mistaken, Officers on board ship had rapiers or very narrow swords that allowed them good reach to stab a cutlass man down. Two enemy ships side by side boarding each other were a part of combat in those days.
Usually Marine sharpshooters with muskets in the fighting tops cut down the Officers on the enemy ship in those days.
Going back even further, you also had small dagger type weapons among the English that when the range was too short to swing a sword, say in a castle stairwell (Those were usually spiraled to favor the defender's sword arm) and there are or was a variety of armor useful against such weapons, chainmail comes to mind.
Must have taken alot of time and very minimal resources to make such a weapon happen.
I know that they should not be applauded for such weapons but that Flail in particular was something to behold.
The rest of the weapons look like they were taken out of carts or off bedframes or something and then somehow wrapped with some sort of paper. Dangerous yes in the right spots.
Regarding the man followed by low lifes and turning his Walmart into a weapons depot of oppertunity has demonstrated good thinking and improvision in a stressful situation. I doubt that these yapping low lifes would have been tolerated by me that long. Hats off to that traveler.
Regarding early weapons of battle, there was a pole about 12 feet and two inches across made from hardwood of good quality. Those were known as Pikes. You form a line of pikes and you can have that line probably two files deep hold off sword bearing infantry for a time. It will require either calvary or archers to break a pike line or even a Trecubet (Spelling?) if such weapons are around.
I think about weapons carried to sea in the late 1700's and early 1800's those were cutlasses which were weighted a little and designed to slice with some weight in a arc. You could do a bit of stabbing but not very well. If Im not mistaken, Officers on board ship had rapiers or very narrow swords that allowed them good reach to stab a cutlass man down. Two enemy ships side by side boarding each other were a part of combat in those days.
Usually Marine sharpshooters with muskets in the fighting tops cut down the Officers on the enemy ship in those days.
Going back even further, you also had small dagger type weapons among the English that when the range was too short to swing a sword, say in a castle stairwell (Those were usually spiraled to favor the defender's sword arm) and there are or was a variety of armor useful against such weapons, chainmail comes to mind.
Targe,
I agree on some points, and we may be forced to disagree on others. Re
That's not necessarily true. I know of very effective fighting stances (seigan and chudan no kamai) that extend the knife at least partially, especially as your opponent lunges in.
As far the Asian vs. Western, what I had heard some years ago, was that, in those duels, the Westerners wounded the Japanese, and the Japanese killed the Westerners.
In any case, I have often told members here that an average spearman will beat a good swordsman with boring regularity.
Welcome to THR!
John
I agree on some points, and we may be forced to disagree on others. Re
That's not necessarily true. I know of very effective fighting stances (seigan and chudan no kamai) that extend the knife at least partially, especially as your opponent lunges in.
As far the Asian vs. Western, what I had heard some years ago, was that, in those duels, the Westerners wounded the Japanese, and the Japanese killed the Westerners.
In any case, I have often told members here that an average spearman will beat a good swordsman with boring regularity.
Welcome to THR!
John
bps3040
Member
I thought this video had a lot of usefull info. I am only using my knife when I cannot carry my gun....Mexico,sporting events, etc. Better to have something than nothing. 1st option would be to try to stay out of trouble.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIdkqwo9BHc&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIdkqwo9BHc&feature=channel
Experience and a lack thereof
I know of very effective fighting stances (seigan and chudan no kamai) that extend the knife at least partially, especially as your opponent lunges in.
Hi John,
Thanks for the welcome!
Just to clarify, my comments/advice were offered for
(1) someone who is a novice to the idea
vs.
(2) someone trained in a entire 'system'.
Also, as far as kenjutsu/kendo techniques go, I'll say that most of them are not readily transferable to knife techniques especially of the size/style of knives 'most of us' are likely to have available (either by carry or emergency purchase). Seigan no Kamae/Chudan no Kamae as a sword fighting posture falls within mid to long range fighting vs. the short range knife on knife (or even knife against empty hand or other weapons). In fact, the ready guard of Chudan no Kamae with a sword is basically the same as with a spear or halberd (yari/naginata). I know a lot of katana techniques translate into identical or near identical wakizashi/tanto techniques but even the typical tanto is probably larger than the blade 'one of us' would likely be carrying in our society and again, its usage would be tied to a combat system.
Another major concern is that as a technique of the long sword, spear or halberd, Chudan no Kamae is pretty much intended for a two handed grip since the tsuba and even the blade offer some protection from the opponent's blade. With the two handed grip, an attack from the opponent can be fended off by blocking (actually, deflecting) with the blade. For that matter, European rapier, saber and foil/epee sword fighting also use a ready guard with a blade in front of the fighter albeit with one-handed grips. Even though they're one-handed swords, the blades and guards of the European saber, rapier and fencing sword also offer protection to the carry hand. That's not the case with the style/size of knife we're likely to carry or acquire as an expedient weapon in our society which is likely to leave the carry hand pretty much bare as far as protection from an opponent's blade or blunt weapon. For that matter, I've seen more than one knife that was presented too far forward actually being grabbed by the blade with close to half of those resulting in a disarming of the knife-wielder or at least momentary incapacitation that allowed him to be cut. (In fact, pretty much what happened in the duel near the end of the movie Rob Roy as was discussed) Obviously grabbing a knife by the blade will probably result in a nasty gash if the knife is sharp and sturdy but most guys aren't carrying a Bill Bagwell hammer forged bowie.
My advice about keeping the blade close to the body addresses a few concerns:
(1) keeping the blade hand out of the danger zone (cutting range of the opponent) until the last possible moment,
(2) keeping the blade 'invisible' as long as possible,
and
(3) allowing more flexibility for the type of strike since the close guard position allows a stab or a slash with no change from the starting point; this also goes along with a reduction in 'telegraphing' the kind of strike that's coming.
In this respect, the 'style' is closer to Escrima/Arnis as well as that seen in the 'American Penal System', the latter of course being motivated by a desire for concealment in the pre-attack phase to surprise when the attack begins.
All interesting stuff!
I know of very effective fighting stances (seigan and chudan no kamai) that extend the knife at least partially, especially as your opponent lunges in.
Hi John,
Thanks for the welcome!
Just to clarify, my comments/advice were offered for
(1) someone who is a novice to the idea
vs.
(2) someone trained in a entire 'system'.
Also, as far as kenjutsu/kendo techniques go, I'll say that most of them are not readily transferable to knife techniques especially of the size/style of knives 'most of us' are likely to have available (either by carry or emergency purchase). Seigan no Kamae/Chudan no Kamae as a sword fighting posture falls within mid to long range fighting vs. the short range knife on knife (or even knife against empty hand or other weapons). In fact, the ready guard of Chudan no Kamae with a sword is basically the same as with a spear or halberd (yari/naginata). I know a lot of katana techniques translate into identical or near identical wakizashi/tanto techniques but even the typical tanto is probably larger than the blade 'one of us' would likely be carrying in our society and again, its usage would be tied to a combat system.
Another major concern is that as a technique of the long sword, spear or halberd, Chudan no Kamae is pretty much intended for a two handed grip since the tsuba and even the blade offer some protection from the opponent's blade. With the two handed grip, an attack from the opponent can be fended off by blocking (actually, deflecting) with the blade. For that matter, European rapier, saber and foil/epee sword fighting also use a ready guard with a blade in front of the fighter albeit with one-handed grips. Even though they're one-handed swords, the blades and guards of the European saber, rapier and fencing sword also offer protection to the carry hand. That's not the case with the style/size of knife we're likely to carry or acquire as an expedient weapon in our society which is likely to leave the carry hand pretty much bare as far as protection from an opponent's blade or blunt weapon. For that matter, I've seen more than one knife that was presented too far forward actually being grabbed by the blade with close to half of those resulting in a disarming of the knife-wielder or at least momentary incapacitation that allowed him to be cut. (In fact, pretty much what happened in the duel near the end of the movie Rob Roy as was discussed) Obviously grabbing a knife by the blade will probably result in a nasty gash if the knife is sharp and sturdy but most guys aren't carrying a Bill Bagwell hammer forged bowie.
My advice about keeping the blade close to the body addresses a few concerns:
(1) keeping the blade hand out of the danger zone (cutting range of the opponent) until the last possible moment,
(2) keeping the blade 'invisible' as long as possible,
and
(3) allowing more flexibility for the type of strike since the close guard position allows a stab or a slash with no change from the starting point; this also goes along with a reduction in 'telegraphing' the kind of strike that's coming.
In this respect, the 'style' is closer to Escrima/Arnis as well as that seen in the 'American Penal System', the latter of course being motivated by a desire for concealment in the pre-attack phase to surprise when the attack begins.
All interesting stuff!
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BPS, interesting video. One thing I don't like though is when Janich makes a quick check/redirect on his oponent's arm and winds up with both his own hands/arms to his (right) outside. At that moment he's very vulnerable to being knocked off balance by an opponent rushing forward. In fact, you can see that Janich's balance is rather shaky several times. I also question the wisdom of a slash to the opponent's leg through his jeans with a small blade when opponent's whole back is exposed available. From that position, a choke hold with the left arm leading to a drag down onto the blade in the right hand would be more effective. In addition, the opponent's leg is likely more mobile than his back. You don't want to start chasing his leg.
No, I don't want Janich to slash my leg through my jeans with his little knife. I probably wouldn't like that any more than I want to be shot with a .22; I'm just saying that I don't think passing up a torso stab (kidney or even a butt stab, in all sincerity) in favor a leg slash is ideal just like than shooting someone with a .22 vs. a 9mm isn't ideal. Better than nothing but still not ideal.
The main thing though is to work on some stuff with some training partners and develop some sort of muscle/motor memory, not to mention learning how it feels when the blade meets resistance. I've seen more than one knife 'fall out' of someone's hand because he didn't have a good enough grip on it and when he stabbed or cut and it met resistance, the knife was jarred loose. Talk about 'embarrassing':
"Oops! Uh...wait a minute...not only did I leave my gun at home, I just dropped my knife. Would you mind not killing me while I pick it up?"
No, I don't want Janich to slash my leg through my jeans with his little knife. I probably wouldn't like that any more than I want to be shot with a .22; I'm just saying that I don't think passing up a torso stab (kidney or even a butt stab, in all sincerity) in favor a leg slash is ideal just like than shooting someone with a .22 vs. a 9mm isn't ideal. Better than nothing but still not ideal.
The main thing though is to work on some stuff with some training partners and develop some sort of muscle/motor memory, not to mention learning how it feels when the blade meets resistance. I've seen more than one knife 'fall out' of someone's hand because he didn't have a good enough grip on it and when he stabbed or cut and it met resistance, the knife was jarred loose. Talk about 'embarrassing':
"Oops! Uh...wait a minute...not only did I leave my gun at home, I just dropped my knife. Would you mind not killing me while I pick it up?"
mercop
Member.
If you are that close you likely don't have the time required to draw a weapon, for that matter you may not see that box cutter coming. The concentration needs to be on the mechanism of the attack.
Just as I don't believe in a dynamic confrontation you are going to be able to shoot the gun out of a bad guys hand or shoot him in the leg, I don't believe you will be able to target a specific muscle which of course would require your own blade. Instead I would rather concentrate training time learning to control the arm while attacking other targets. If you are controlling the arm you will have a little more confidence and time when choosing what to do next. -George
Just as I don't believe in a dynamic confrontation you are going to be able to shoot the gun out of a bad guys hand or shoot him in the leg, I don't believe you will be able to target a specific muscle which of course would require your own blade. Instead I would rather concentrate training time learning to control the arm while attacking other targets. If you are controlling the arm you will have a little more confidence and time when choosing what to do next. -George
I think the two vital points to take away from all this is not to know only how to use one tool. That requires real training.
If you can't escape, have the will to see it through to the point you can.
If you can't escape, have the will to see it through to the point you can.
mercop
Member.
hso, how dare you narrow it down to mindset and training.
Just as I don't believe in a dynamic confrontation you are going to be able to shoot the gun out of a bad guys hand or shoot him in the leg, I don't believe you will be able to target a specific muscle which of course would require your own blade.
I agree! I hope I conveyed that same basic thought when I said go for the torso (large target) vs. targeting the moving leg.
Instead I would rather concentrate training time learning to control the arm while attacking other targets. If you are controlling the arm you will have a little more confidence and time when choosing what to do next.
Assuming you mean "the other guy's arm", I 'pretty much agree' since I consider moving to the rear or opposite side of his blade hand to be a form of 'passive control' (you might not be actively engaging his blade hand/arm but you're disallowing him effective use of it as much as possible). In Janich's video, he engages his attacker's blade hand/arm but only briefly with a 'just enough' deflect that works out very tidily. Deflects of that nature are risky especially with bare hands and especially if the other guy is larger and stronger. Fancy footwork often works no better in a fistfight/knife fight/stick fight than fancy shooting works in a lethal real world shootout.
For one thing there's probably 4 mindsets that will prevail 'the first time' someone is attacked with a knife:
(1) Disbelief "that it's really happening" and along with that mind and muscle 'freeze' leading to a complete disregard for any techniques that were trained on and instead the defender begins wildly flailing about with his knife.
(2) Crazy fear leading to the flight mechanism
(3) Enraged retaliation (likely if the physical attack was preceded by a verbal exchange or some other indication an lethal attack is about to follow) that will also probably lead to wild flailing about or -conversely- determined stabs and cuts but of a very rudimentary nature. In other words, also a dismissal of any learned techniques but with a more determined set of replacement actions that will probably be more effective at offense but with no attention to defense.
(4) Calm reaction and a reliance on learned techniques from the dojo, fight club or whatever.
Of course, besides considering scenario 4 the least likely reaction (I give it odds of about 20 to 1 on the short end) that calm confidence can go flying out the window the instant our intrepid hero is actually CUT.
As Muhammed Ali said "Everyone's got a plan until the punches start flying."
I agree! I hope I conveyed that same basic thought when I said go for the torso (large target) vs. targeting the moving leg.
Instead I would rather concentrate training time learning to control the arm while attacking other targets. If you are controlling the arm you will have a little more confidence and time when choosing what to do next.
Assuming you mean "the other guy's arm", I 'pretty much agree' since I consider moving to the rear or opposite side of his blade hand to be a form of 'passive control' (you might not be actively engaging his blade hand/arm but you're disallowing him effective use of it as much as possible). In Janich's video, he engages his attacker's blade hand/arm but only briefly with a 'just enough' deflect that works out very tidily. Deflects of that nature are risky especially with bare hands and especially if the other guy is larger and stronger. Fancy footwork often works no better in a fistfight/knife fight/stick fight than fancy shooting works in a lethal real world shootout.
For one thing there's probably 4 mindsets that will prevail 'the first time' someone is attacked with a knife:
(1) Disbelief "that it's really happening" and along with that mind and muscle 'freeze' leading to a complete disregard for any techniques that were trained on and instead the defender begins wildly flailing about with his knife.
(2) Crazy fear leading to the flight mechanism
(3) Enraged retaliation (likely if the physical attack was preceded by a verbal exchange or some other indication an lethal attack is about to follow) that will also probably lead to wild flailing about or -conversely- determined stabs and cuts but of a very rudimentary nature. In other words, also a dismissal of any learned techniques but with a more determined set of replacement actions that will probably be more effective at offense but with no attention to defense.
(4) Calm reaction and a reliance on learned techniques from the dojo, fight club or whatever.
Of course, besides considering scenario 4 the least likely reaction (I give it odds of about 20 to 1 on the short end) that calm confidence can go flying out the window the instant our intrepid hero is actually CUT.
As Muhammed Ali said "Everyone's got a plan until the punches start flying."
mercop
Member.
I have defended against a knife open handed three times and with my ASP once. Every time it was like slow motion. I attribute the success to lots of luck and defending against the arm first, the body second and the knife last.
The time with the ASP was after a Taser failure. Bad cartridge so I had to go old school and transition to the ASP.
The time with the ASP was after a Taser failure. Bad cartridge so I had to go old school and transition to the ASP.
Targe,
Good, knowledgeable response post. Let me say I'm delighted to have you here.
Yeah, in general, stressing gross motor movements, attacking larger targets, and getting offline of the attack are the way to go.
John
Good, knowledgeable response post. Let me say I'm delighted to have you here.
Yeah, in general, stressing gross motor movements, attacking larger targets, and getting offline of the attack are the way to go.
John
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