Knife fighting - which arts/schools teach practical skills?

[dave3006]

The last thing I want to be in is a knife fight. However, I want to find a place to train consistently on the skills necessary to deploy and use the folding knife I carry with me every day.

I have taken a two day class at Cold Steel that specifically trained for fighting with a knife. It was excellent.

The problem is that I can not seem to find any schools that a person can consistently train every week for knife fighting. There are lots of seminars. But, few schools. I have watched an Escrima Class. It was mostly stick work. They say that their training applies to smaller blades too.

Any recommendations?

Dave
Orange County, CA

 

[Paul Gomez]

Dave,

Honestly, you are going to be very hard-pressed to find a school that does regular training like you describe.

Your best bet is to interest your training peers into incorporating that sort of work into your training.

After they agree, get a few training knives that duplicate your normal carry blades [as closely as possible] and work the deployment.

Getting the knife out, particularly the folder, and particularly under real stress, is difficult.

For a simple, aggressive skillset, I highly reccomend the Reverse Edge Methods, Volume 1 DVD from ShivWorks.com. SouthNarc is a gifted trainer and the material presented is rock solid. He did a one day seminar in Orange County a few weeks back [the weekend of the Blade West show] that was well recieved.

I enjoy Filipino Martial Arts, but stick & knife work FMA-style does not equate to deployment skill with a small folder. That is a separate skillset and, unless it is worked rigorously, it will not be functional.

 

[dave3006]

Thanks Paul. Can you elaborate on why the FMA skills do not translate to skills with a fighting folding knife?

 

[Paul Gomez]

Dave,

It's not the Filipino concepts that don't cross over, it's the lack of deployment training that's glaringly missing.

There are only so many ways to hold a knife and so many ways to use it.

The sharp edge and the pointy end go in or on the other guy.

The hardest part of in-fight tool usage is assessing the tool in the middle of an assault and that's what is missing from most curricula.

Given the mechanations that you have to go through to get a folding knife out of the pocket, opened and into a using grasp, you are way behind the power curve when it comes to deploying the 'tactical folder' for real when someone is on top of you.

 

[El Tejon]

Amen!

And the wierd thing is, no one's talking about this issue.

 

[dave3006]

Excellent responses. I carry my Benchmade AFCK during the summer. During the winter, I carry my 6" Cuda Maxx almost at all times. I am constantly practicing accessing it from my pocket. I can see what you mean. Under stress and movement, it would be much harder.

Once you have the weapon in your hand, would the FMA be a help or a hinderance? I have 10+ years of Shotokan Karate. I am open minded to try FMA if it would be of benefit.

 

[Paul Gomez]

FMA will teach you line familiarity or 'angles of attack', it will get you used to moving with a knife and some good body mechanics to go with it.

However, you have to be willing to go through a lot of material and winnow out what makes sense defensively speaking.

A good example is the SouthNarc DVD I mentioned previously. He has a fairly string Pekiti-Tirsia background and what you are seeing in his Reverse Edge Methods material is very stripped down, but definitely influenced by Pekiti.

Would you be better off studying FMA long term or focusing on a more limited skillset from the onset? I think starting with the stripped down material makes sense and helps give you a framework to evaluate the more convulted FMA that you'll see in class.

El T,

You have got to get to a SouthNarc class. You'll have a blast.

 

[LawDog]

If there is a Sayoc Kali-certified instructor in your area, visit some of his classes and see if that style/instructor suits your purpose.

http://www.sayoc.com/

LawDog

 

[Simon76]

Dave: If you're having a hard time finding a classroom situation, you might try some of the numerous books and videos on knife fighting, and countless other related subjects, available from Paladin Press (http://paladin-press.com - Free Catalogue!).

I was a student, for a short time, in Pencak-Silat Bukti-Negara, as well as Kenpo (Ed Parker variety) and various other forms. I am VERY interested in the Filipino arts for the main reason that they are BRUTAL. These are real-world, "I'm not playin' games" techniques. Paladin Press has excellent books and videos on FMA, as well as numerous other MA styles and forms.

Visit their web site and check them out.

Simon.

 

[dave3006]

Thanks to all for the great responses. My experience with fighting arts is that the seminars can be great as an introduction to a skill. However, it is the daily repetition that is crucial to really learning in depth. In Karate, I trained 6-7 days a week for years. I do not regret all this time and effort because I feel like it was necessary to truely absorb the art.

Paul I think is right on most martial arts in general. You have to go through alot of training and material that is not relevent to real life. I can see that in shotokan karate, judo, and the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu I have studied.

 

[carebear]

Check out riddle of steel in Washington state

 

[Coastie1776]

I recently brought this up to our "training and tactics" guru's. They told me to "open my reactionairy gap" until I could bring my pistol to the fight.

What that meant to me was run like hell and hope you have a gun.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

I'd second the recommendation for SouthNarc. He's got a stripped down, basic system which looks very good indeed.
http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/An Expression of Pikal.pdf

Be sure to check out his unarmed PSP's too.

http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/PSP1.pdf
http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/PSP2.pdf
http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/PSP3.pdf

 

[carebear]

I do like the MMA (Marine's) new basic knife fighting.

Bull rush the guy and get the point into him as fast and hard and as many times as you can. Like repeated jabs to the body but with a knife. I like the "sewing machine" analogy.

 

[Mac Attack]

Dave the FMA translates to both long and short weapons. I lived most of my life in OC (Huntington Beach to be exact) and have trained with several FMA instructors. Each teaches their own style but all are filled with good and not so good points.

I am a firm believer that if you want to learn how to use a knife you must first learn the motions. In the FMA's you learn the motions which set the foundation for your skills. I trained at the Inosanto Academy of Martial Arts for quite a while and highly recommend it. The various instructors teach techniques which can be used with any size weapon or with bare hands. If you have a chance, Guro Dan Inosanto usually teaches classes on Thursday mornings and then again on Friday nights (Advanced students only). I highly recommend any classes at the Inosanta Academy.

I have done a little training with in the Sayok system and can honestly say that their system is by far the best knife system bar none. I know the pekiti Tirsian's will say their's is the best but IMHO nothing bets the Sayok style. I do know that there is a Sayok instructor in the LA area.

Just my two cents.

 

[dave3006]

Mac Attack, do you know anything about the quality of teaching (FMA) at OC Kickboxing? I heard they are affiliated with Mr. Inosanto. Would you recommend them?

For what it is worth, I have a black belt in Shotokan Karate and am a Blue belt in BJJ.

Dave.

 

[Mac Attack]

Dave,

I am not familiar with the OC kickboxing academy unless this is the old West Coast Martial Arts Academy run by Steve Tarani. I know that after Steve became more involved with his LEO and military training he stepped away from the academy and Jerry Huffman stepped in as the head instructor. Jerry is affliated with the Inosanto academy but I am not certain if he holds instructor certifications from Guro Dan.

 

[Ghost_Point]

The Fillipinoes pretty much have knife fighting sewn up. They are the reason why marines are called leather necks do to the usa betrayal of the phillipines. If you fight with knife v.s. knife I recomend attacking the weapon hand as it will come to you and if you get a good cut into the enemys weapon hand it should be over. Do not rush anyone with a knife because you never know how well the enemy uses their knife. If you get a good cut into the enemy stand back and wait for the wound to do its work. If you are in it with multiple attackers try to keep moving so that one is behind the other and never engage because this will allow the second enemy to move to your side or back. you may want to try and kick the wrist but be careful not to kick the knife and get stabed in the foot or leg. The head is dangerous to strike because you bring yourself to far into the enemys knife range and expose the arm pit wich is a soft way to the heart.

 

[steelhead]

Ghost_Point,

You are incorrect on the term "leathernecks" and how the title came about. That term was long in use before the Marines ever tangled with the Moro's.

Just so you know:

"Leath•er•neck n. Slang. 1. A U.S. Marine. [The Marine uniform originally had a leather-lined collar.]_ 2. The magazine of the Marines.

Since the days of the Barbary pirates, United States Marines have called themselves "leathernecks." Legend and lore have it that the term leatherneck was derived from leather neckbands worn in the late 1700s to protect Marines from the slash of the cutlass. Another more likely reason is that the high stocks were worn for discipline to keep the Marines' heads high and straight. Neither explanation has ever been verified. Whatever the reason, the name leatherneck stuck and the distinctive dress blue uniform blouse still bears a high stock collar to remind Marines of the leatherneck legacy. "