Knife Sharpening

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I lost that earlier post. Server hung so you might want to edit.
My apologies.


I sharpen freehand.
John , myself and others that do freehand sharpen around here, seem to do a lot of the same things.

Granted we might not know it, until we 'splain it, but we do it. *lol*

WE are all still learning, which is the way it is supposed to be.
Sharing experiences and all.

None of us deal with every steel, heat treat and geometry, so there is nothing wrong with having a network of folks to bounce things off each other.

Agree to disagree is a huge key as well. One reason is one learns - period.

So if I go about something "different", it may not apply to another. It might down the road.

"Steve had a deal like this happen, and while I don't normally do that method, maybe the darn method will work on this steel, heat treat and geometry".

Just file back the information , it might not every apply to you, it might for someone else!

"Man, I don't know, I do not deal with that, but holler at Chico or John, I think they have...".

It is all good, really.
 
It's morning now, and over my usual five-alarm gargantuan cup of flavored latte' I re-read this entire thread.

Two things come to mind here.

First, I'm not sure anybody, including knowledgeable cutlers, can even derive the meaning of just what a "burr" is on a knife. Or how to fix it, or why it's there, or what tools are needed, or even why most knives are made of metal.

Secondly, in vino veritas. These are my friends and co-workers.

Yikes.
 
KC, sooner or later the tinkers here are going to have explain some real and pertinent information on the care and maintenance of edged tools.

*blah, blah, blah*

To that end, someone who knows tinkers must explain that knife sharpeners, polishers and tinkers are the "clown princes" of the service industry.

In one of his interviews on youtube, a Japanese polisher actually makes a few glib jokes and reminds viewers that even in Japan a tinker was not considered one of the "skilled trades." We get our very name from the 'tinka, tinka, tinka' sound of repaired pots and pans bouncing on a sharpener's cart.

These pots and pans were gleaned from area trash dumps.

After seeing the movie, I regret that I had not been Heath Ledger's mentor. We would have made millions (of nickels) sharpening as father and son. I could have been of great value to him in being more open with people. He's so serious.
 
First, I'm not sure anybody, including knowledgeable cutlers, can even derive the meaning of just what a "burr" is on a knife. Or how to fix it, or why it's there, or what tools are needed, or even why most knives are made of metal.
Click to expand...

mete, a member here could tell us.

I am not a metallurgist.
I survived chemistry, the math portion was difficult for me.

Basically everything is made up of molecules, some are bigger than others. Some are naturally comprised of more than one molecule.
Water is H20, and if one adds one more molecule of oxygen , one gets Hydrogen Peroixde, H202.

I hope I remembered that correctly, if not, someone please correct me.
The principle of what I am trying to convey is intact though.

If one looks under extreme magnification , one sees metal, wood, plastic, skin, hair, nail...everything is "not smooth".

One might have "smooth skin", under extreme magnification, the skin appears to be extremely rough, coarse, with "peaks and valley's".
Same applies to a "smooth" glass marble, . If one uses enough magnification, one will see "polish" marks on the finest glass, finished out to the human understanding of "nth degree".

WE humans can only detect so much.

Metal is made up of various molecules, and some when done and "treated" as they are for various reasons are more "fine" than others.
Under extreme magnification, these knife edges, made of "finer steel" and sharpened , and polished, will appear like ragged rock crevices on a mountain.

So one can only get to certain "nth degree" of "sharp" and "polished".
The "burr" is essentially these molecules not exact in meeting together.
They never actually meet "exact" to form a perfectly smooth , exact edge.

They cannot, never will, as there will be "crevices" and "pits" just like a mountain ridge.

We get a "burr" from tang to tip, to allow us humans to know that side of the knife edge has been attended to. Everything on that side of the edge, has to the best of our ability , with whatever "grit" is the same with that "grit.

It is not perfect, just we what we want is everything to be the "same" to the best of our ability with that grit, for that metal, at that time.

Then we repeat on the other side to raise another "burr". This is so we know, we have done the best we can with the limits that exists with metal, its peaks, valleys, and crevices due to molecular structure we have "met the other side" .

Then we continue removing metal, in hopes of the edge "meeting" to a "edge" that will cut what needs cutting.

That edge is never to going to be exact. In use, it will be affected.
Hence the reason one is wise to strop, as sometimes a strop being used will get these burrs to line up more straight, get the molecules to be less pits, peaks and valleys.

Sometimes it requires a bit of grit to get this edge back.

Polish can both hurt and assist these pits, peaks, valleys and crevices.
It depends on molecular structure of the metal and how it was made, treated and its shape, or geometry.

The polish can only "reach" so much of these peaks and valleys. So an edge might "slide" over a polish area and "catch" on a deep ugly gnarly crevice, and tear out some of that crevice.

Now if the edge for that steel, with its structure and properties is not sharpened that fine, and not polished that fine, the edge will "transition as it cuts" to the deep crevices.
Err...I am trying to convey the idea of toothy graduations leading to the deep gnarly crevice and back out, so as to not "yank out a chunk of crevice" which affects the integrity of the edge.
Nicks, chipping and other problems.



It might be best for the metal to be polished "some", a "bit more" or "quite a bit" as one is never going to get a "perfect polish" , it just is not possible, only possible to what a human can detect to "nth degree".

You are standing on a rocky ridge, you are navigating that ridge.
If that "edge" is too "polished" you have difficulty in getting a good foot hold, or handhold.
Oh the rock has grain, you can see the structure, pits, crevices, peaks and valleys, but it is too polished to get a firm hold.

If you are crossing a small stream, you can see the "smooth rocks" and know these too are slippery.
They may be 'smoother' they are not perfectly smooth. You look for a less smooth, actually a more "toothy" rock, or portion of the stream to cross so you will slip and fall.


Hand saws are another good illustration.
They made umpteen types of hand saws.
Think of you knife edge and ...

Look at the teeth. Some saws have more "peaks and valleys" the teeth are bigger and some are more close together than others.
Some have smaller teeth, not very deep , and these two vary as to how close together they are.
Then you have saws, that have both large and small teeth, and these too vary as to how close together they are.

Now you know why grandpa has all those darn handsaws and grandma cringes when Pa is going to town for "another saw" and arrives home with "three more saws". *lol*

These saws represent you knife edge.
Those teeth patterns represent various steels of molecular structure, treated as they are to handle various tasks.

We don't have one saw with one tooth pattern to handle every task.
If "perfectly edged" and polished was the best, then saws would have no teeth.
You are not going to cut wood using the opposite side of the saw where the teeth are...

You might still nick or cut yourself on that other side, and no matter how "smooth" it appears, the edges will not meet perfect, there may be a "burr" , or that "wire edge" that cuts you as you get the saw down to use.


*smile*
 
sm, the reason I point out the confusion on burrs is that many people do notice that one side of the knife has a "feel" to it, and the other side is flat or featureless.

Most tinkers and polishers now recommend "micro-bevels," which is a fancy-schmancy way of saying to apply a slight increase in the angle of attack as you finish the final polish.

Yes, it works. I have cut myself.
 
I have often used a small bar of soap, such as one has used in a hotel, to demonstrate an "edge" and what one is striving to achieve by "sharpening".

I will use a flat brick, or patio stone to represent a stone.

-Chisel edge is the easiest one for folks to "see" and I have used the soap as a "chisel" and they can see the "burr" and "feel" the burr.

-Knife edges are done the same way.

Everyone learns things differently. Some folks are abstract, some are concrete, and it depends often on what we are learning, as to how we learn it.

Little soap bars allows folks to see and do with larger examples of edge, grit, burrs, angles, micro bevels, Appleseed/Moran/Convex ...whatever.

Once the human computer has had the data input from handling the edge , tools and doing these various things, with a small bar of Ivory Soap, it is easier for some to apply to chisels , knives, hatchet, axe, - whatever.

Big Bar of Ivory soap is great teaching tool as well.
It cuts real easy, and is easy on the edge.
Folks can cut, whittle, and mess with different inclusive angles to see how they cut that soap.

They can make wittle boats that float. Coffee stirrers, swizzle sticks, one is supposed to use the swizzle stick like a sword for Pirate ships...*wink*

Chico, use a bar of Ivory Soap to demonstrate to the next client that brings a Razel over , what the various geometries do.

As you shared, the chisel will remove a decal off a headlight, the Razel can do this on a bar of soap.
Demonstrate other things that Razel will do, and of course let the client keep the soap.

They will remember you the next time they need a knife, or your services.
That soap bar is a planted seed that will continue to grow and come to fruition.

*yep*
 
sm said:
They will remember you the next time they need a knife
Click to expand...

Wow, this is getting spooky! Valkman and I just had this same conversation in PM!

I was lucky enough to get on the waiting list for one of his knives. We discussed various features.

But in that process, we also spoke on the telephone. And he got to know me, and my philosophies and needs. Just like the education you gave regarding the soap. The demonstration of unknown facts for the client.

I told him that I also share this relationship with Terry Tussey. My perspective here is that not only are you paying a cutler or a gunsmith to build you "your vision," but you also need them to bring their expertise to the project.

For example, let's suppose that I ordered a knife from Valkman that was only to be used in my truck or on my bike. I told him that I wanted ZDP-189, and an HT of Rc 65.

As a professional cutler, Valkman would know that a knife like that in a rough environment might chip like crazy. He might add, "Chico, you'll be happier with 154-CM and an Rc no greater than 59." That's what I'm ultimately paying him for.

He has been an honest craftsman. He already pointed out the discoloring process on some types of linen micarta. He'll always have my business.
 
Chico,
What is really spooky, is Valkman talks to me! *eerie*

Everyone knows something about something.
They have "apprenticed", if you will, about something.

What one gets by doing business with such folks, are those things one does not get from reading a book, attending a class, or watching a video.

Personal service, listening to the client and their needs , education of the client by the "apprentice" as the reality is, one never stops being an apprentice.

This is what I don't get by some folks.
They do a work, and will get upset if folks expect a one-size-fits-all from them.

Then turn right around and not understand that a item, is not a one-size-fits all and get upset if it does not perform.

A customer maker will listen to a client, and "hear" what is needed and advise.
A Professional sharpener will "hear" a client wants to cut fish, or field dress elk.
The knives will be different and the way they are sharpened will be different for these different tasks.

Again, Production knives many times are "general purpose". Swiss Army Knife is a great example.
They do a knife, to fit who knows what all sorts of tasks, all over the world!
I'll say one thing, the quality control is consistent, they are sharp to use upon purchase, warranty is great, and the darn things do work for a "general purpose knife.

The steel is not the best or worst, the Rc actually varies from blades to various tools.
Factory angle is 15*, and due to geometry , they cut.
Recommended grit, is 400-700, with natural (Arkansas med , hard fine for a polished edge) or man made (Norton fine, extra fine) or diamond fine which is 600 grit.
[They recommend a file btw with a back and forth motion like "z", so a slip as one uses for gunsmithing works very well. *know-ya-know*]

I mean for what one pays for a SAK pocket knife,[not multi tool, just a knife] one really cannot afford to be without one, for back up, loaning out and whatever.


Still folks get a production knife, and this knife may or may not be the best steel, and not usually treated to the best Rc , and everybody last week sharpened knives a certain way, and this week another way, and next week who knows what the sharpening dealie is going to be?

Some folks get lucky and the knife fits their task, some don't, and some have terrible stories and fussing they do in Internet.

It might be something so simple, as changing the total inclusive edge angle that makes that knife fit a task better.
Instead of micro bevel, going to convex.

The good production companies have knowledgeable folks that can advise customers what products they have, with various steels, blade geometries and treating will work "closest to best for you task".

Folks might be better off waiting, and not spending the money on a number of knives, instead getting with a custom maker and getting made for them for task and be satisfied.


Valkman did my Small Skinner in 01.
He does that knife using other steels.

How much is a DL Small Skinner? Call Don and find out what Your knife will cost.

Now how many rinky-dink knives could you not have bought, and became frustrated with, and could of instead bought Your knife to fit your tasks from Don, Tom or anyone else that makes a knife?

I assure you Don, Tom and others that make knives, will give you quality for monies spent.
They will also advise "something off the rack" to fit another need, or for someone else, as a gift, and other uses.

You need a production knife for young man or lady in scouting, ask Don or Tom, I assure you, they and others have really good suggestions.

It is all good.

Investigate and Verify.
 
sm, at the end of the day, I simply admit I like to come here. To a certain degree, there must be many things on which we agree. That's also what's keeps us here.
 
All these sharpening threads are gonna end up in me cutting myself tonight. I see it happening.

I still haven't found that buck fixed blade.............Oh wait.........my emergency bag.........That's where it is...........:D.

Must go sharpen it now.
 
I am nobody, I never wanted to somebody and am not ever going to be anybody.

I am just a dumb old southern boy and all I have are my life experiences and observations.

I have a new SAK Classic SD in my pocket, red, because I was not asked, instead fussed at while it was shoved into my back pocket.

Sharpen?
With what?
I ain't even got a sharpener here! *lol*

I might have one in some stuff off site, but not here.

I am having a ball with a SAK, and no sharpener.

Some Vets in rehab needed some sharpeners, that is where the two I had, went.

I just show up places, use what others have, and have a great time, shooting guns, messing with knives , or whatever else.
Mentors did this...
The older I get, the more I understand why they grinned a lot.

Just one of them "dimensions" mentors spoke of and said they could not explain what these "dimensions" were, but I would know when I was in one, and going through one.


Good Time! - Jackson
 
I carried an SAK for many years and still consider it to be an excellent general purpose knife. I finally retired mine when the pocket-clip/one-hand openers came along. I find that the majority of the time when I need a knife, I'm already holding what I want to cut. Which means I have to put it down, get out my knife, open it, pick up the material, make the cut, put it back down, close & stow the knife. As much as I love that SAK, it can't compete with a knife I can grab quickly & operate easily with only one hand.

In addition, because there's no reason to leave a one-hand knife lying around (you can instantly close it and pocket it) or lying with the blade open, I find that my one-hand knives take less abuse (from getting knocked off tables or from dinging against tools/etc.) and are less likely to be lost/misplaced.

I still carry a mini-SAK for the tiny, razor-sharp, scalpel-like blade and for the scissors & tweezers. It's small enough to fit in the "watch pocket" of my jeans. But for general use I rely on a Spyderco Worker.
 
Boy, does that take me back! Boyhood, actually. My first SAK. My Father bought it for me. You know kids, I wanted the biggest one in the case. But Dad knew better, and he knew a good quality, useful knife would serve me well in my younger years. Man, an SAK. I still have it here somewhere. Sometimes it brings a tear to my eye...

...that Sicilian Attack Knife.
 
I carried an SAK for many years and still consider it to be an excellent general purpose knife. I finally retired mine when the pocket-clip/one-hand openers came along. I find that the majority of the time when I need a knife, I'm already holding what I want to cut. Which means I have to put it down, get out my knife, open it, pick up the material, make the cut, put it back down, close & stow the knife. As much as I love that SAK, it can't compete with a knife I can grab quickly & operate easily with only one hand.

In addition, because there's no reason to leave a one-hand knife lying around (you can instantly close it and pocket it) or lying with the blade open, I find that my one-hand knives take less abuse (from getting knocked off tables or from dinging against tools/etc.) and are less likely to be lost/misplaced.

I still carry a mini-SAK for the tiny, razor-sharp, scalpel-like blade and for the scissors & tweezers. It's small enough to fit in the "watch pocket" of my jeans. But for general use I rely on a Spyderco Worker.
Click to expand...

My SAK has been retired to the change tray (I don't smoke) of my truck. It stays there for general purpose use when needed. I heartily agree on the one handers being easier to use and keep up with.

I carry a small leatherman micra that is just so much easier to pocket along with all the other crap I carry around. It has scissors where most leatherman tools have pliers. Also has the tweezers, small blade, etc.

That little screwdriver got me out of a bathroom I was locked in once. Haven't been without it since. :D.
 
I love my sak's. Take that as you will. In fact it's about the only folding knife I carry these days. A bantam in the pocket and a classic in the little leather keyring sheath I made for it. If they won't handle what I need to do, it's time for the 12 inch machete or a saw.

I've been stropping my classic on the bottom of coffee mugs now and then. The ceramic seems to put a real razor edge on the stainless steel blade quick. Its easier to grab a coffee mug when sitting someplace like a diner booth, than dig the Eze-lap hone out of my wallet. Seems to work just as well, but bugs the heck out of the better half.

Sak's are so easy to touch up in the field, but hold a decent cutting edge for a reasonable amount of time. It seems to be a good all around compromise.
 
I have a few :uhoh: SAKs. :D

I don't usually carry one of the large ones, but have had one as my only knife for years on end. I sometimes carry a little one under my wallet in my left front pocket. The others are stashed about. One I don't want to lose, because of where it's been with me, is in my nightstand. One with a little pair of pliers (Mechanic) goes hunting with me, to pull thorns from the dog's pads. Others are in the car, truck, emergency kits. Kids both have one, wife has a couple. Of all the knives I've bought her, the only that gets carried everyday and hasn't been lost ever, is the keyring Eidleweiss SD.

Just something about them. They're easy to sharpen, and they work. A young soldier asked me yesterday what multi-tool she should get. I asked her if she wanted one for the tools, the pliers, or because she doesn't have a knife. She wants a knife with some tools. I said, get an SAK. You'll get a better, more usable knife, and the tools are first rate. If you really need pliers, then go to a hardware store and buy some real ones. She laughed, but that's what she's planning to do. :D
 
I admit I'm no expert on sharpening knives or other edged tools. But I try and I have gotten better over the years. I still prefer stones to the "systems" that are available like Sharpmaker and Lansky's.

Burr's....... hmmm.... I'm cold! burrrrr

My latest Queen knife has an uneven bevel. I'll fix it one of these days, but it is still new and unused.

As a kid I thought SAKs a bit stupid and overly big for the purpose of cutting. As I grew older, I learned that there were various SAKs available and beginning around 1980 I have not been without one. I highly recommend them for everyday carry. Got one in my pocket right now. I do like some of the one-handers and assisted openers.

Stroping works too. I have in other theads mentioned the DMT stones that I prefer now. I like them and trust them. Waterstones work too for a final polish. I use one on my knives sometimes.

Anyway, better turn the AC down as it's cold.... burrr
 
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