Kopel on self defense, 7-Eleven, and the W.Virginia Supreme Court

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AZRickD

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http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_06_05-2005_06_11.shtml#1118499071

[David Kopel, June 11, 2005 ]

W.V. COURT VINDICATES SELF-DEFENSE RIGHT FOR EMPLOYEES:

In Feliciano v. 7-Eleven, a masked woman with a gun attempted to rob the
7-Eleven where Feliciano worked. While the robber was distracted by
another employee, Feliciano grabbed her gun, and held her captive until
the police arrived. "Following this incident, 7-Eleven terminated
Feliciano, who was an at will employee, for failure to comply with its
company policy which prohibits employees from subduing or otherwise
interfering with a store robbery."

The West Virginia Supreme Court cited numerous precedents showing that
the right of self-defense is very well-established and substantial
public policy. Accordingly:
we hold that when an at will employee has been discharged from his/her
employment based upon his/her exercise of self-defense in response to
lethal imminent danger, such right of self-defense constitutes a
substantial public policy exception to the at will employment doctrine
and will sustain a cause of action for wrongful discharge. Consistent
with our prior precedent, we hold further that an employer may rebut an
employee's prima facie case of wrongful discharge resulting from the
employee's use of self-defense in response to lethal imminent danger by
demonstrating that it had a plausible and legitimate business reason to
justify the discharge.
 
Wow, this is really significant from a legal standpoint, even though ti's from the relatively small state of WVa. Could get the ball rolling the right way.
 
and yet, the "conservative intelligentsia" wrings its hands

http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2005/06/at_will_employm.html

"At will employment: Should there be a public policy exception for gun fanciers ("nuts")?

"David Kopel blawgs a West Virginia case holding that 7-11 could not terminate an at-will employee for violating company policy by using a firearm to resist a hold-up. Kopel doesn't explicitly provide normative commentary, but the overall tone of the post seems to imply support for the decision. Glenn Reynolds likewise seems pleased: "an employee's right of self defense trumps the employer's right to order employees not to defend themselves."

Not being much of a gun fancier (nut), I have a somewhat different take. Namely, this is yet another judicial blow against freedom of contract and private property rights. It's also a blow against workers. The economic effects of judicially created exceptions to the at-will employment doctrine are well-established."

****

"In sum, this decision is no reason for celebration. Oh yes, by the way, while Glenn celebrates this as a victory for individual rights vis-a-vis employer rights, he should know that 7-11's policy is endorsed by the National Association of Convenience Stores:

The vast majority of convenience store robberies are completed without any injury and this is due to the industry's success in training employees not to resist. (Link: http://www.nacsonline.com/NACS/Resource/StoreOperations/weapons.htm)

Indeed, a government study (link: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/88012970/ABSTRACT) links the likelihood of a convenience store employee being injured to employee resistance. :barf:

Update: And on that note, a memo to XRLQ: If you believe my "take" of supporting a policy that apparently reduces employee deaths and injuries while simultaneously standing up for conservative values like freedom of contract and property rights is obscene, or even close to it, you're no Potter Stewart."


***end quotes****

Just remember this the next time you hear someone blathering on about "anti-gun liberals" . . . :mad:
 
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Statists are evil regardless of whether they espouse laissez-faire or socialism. Bainbridge is a twit, even if he puts the word "professor" in his website name.

an utter misunderstanding of the state action requirement

Does not exist. That is the whole point. This guy is obviously not well read on the legal precedents in this area. It is established that the state has no duty to prevent crimes nor even to solve them. Try and sue them for it if you dont beleive me.

The national association of convenience stores? Is this supposed to be some sort of unbiased 3rd party? Perhaps an organization made up of the minimum wage employees that work in convenience stores? Oh wait, its probably a trade organization made up of the corporate leadership of 7-11, Blimpies, Subway and other large convenience store chains. You know, those who fought and lost this trial because they held the beleif that self defense is cause for dismissal.

Anything that makes it harder for employers to misguidedly deny their employees the right to self defense is good. Should an employer be allowed to dismiss his employees because he discovers that they are homosexuals? Surely the right embodied in the 2nd and 9th amendments for centuries is at least as strong as the one incorporated into the 9th only several months ago.
 
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This sentence cracks me up:

The vast majority of convenience store robberies are completed without any injury and this is due to the industry's success in training employees not to resist.

It makes a robbery sound like a "normal business transaction!" And this is basically the same advice they used to offer women who were being raped. "Most victims of rape aren't killed unless they fight back so just lie there and don't move." Happily, that advice isn't too common any more.

Gregg
 
'Scuse me, Bainbridge, but wasn't it the robber who had the gun? The employee had no firearm, isn't that correct? The guy just took it away from her? He just used his hands to prevent the holdup, isn't that correct?

"...this is yet another judicial blow against freedom of contract and private property rights."

Since when do contracts and property rights rise above one's right to defend one's own life?

Grammaw wouldn't approve of my further thoughts about this good professor...

Art
 
I think Clayton Williams (candidate for Texas Governor) said something like that about rape victims. As a result, we got stuck with Gov. Ann Richards.

I wonder if this will trickle down to Houston. My company says I can't carry and says I can't carry in my vehicle parked in the building's (not the company's) parking garage. No legal threat, just that you will get fired. I can understand inside of a chemical plant fence line, but not in the parking lot.
 
...while Glenn celebrates this as a victory for individual rights vis-a-vis employer rights, he should know that 7-11's policy is endorsed by the National Association of Convenience Stores...

I wonder how many Congress critters the National Association of Convenience Stores owns.
 
Didnt someone get in a lot of trouble for advising women to "relax and enjoy" rape?
Yes. I recall that a 1970's-era "gun-control" advocate mouthed those words. Perhaps the founder of what what was to become "Handgun Control Inc" and now "The Brady Center..." Pete Shields? Many google searches ahead of me.

Here is one non-gun reference I found.

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/7F05.html
For many years, New York's WABC-TV evening news had a popular weatherman, Tex Antoine. Tex had been around for 20 years or so, but he self-destructed in a gruesome way. In the mid-70s, his spot came up just after a report of a rape case. Tex thereupon said about the last story, ``Confucius says, `If rape be inevitable, just lie back and enjoy it.' '' This so-called joke got him first suspended, and then fired. [The incident was a major news story at the time. Whether this is an intentional reference or just a coincidence is still unresolved. --rjc]
Another from Ann Coulter vaguely referencing HCI:

http://www.freepatriot.com/quotes.txt
"The most dangerous action a woman can take when faced with a criminal is to resist with her fists: That tends to annoy violent criminals, and the woman will very likely be seriously injured. But a woman who takes the advice of Handgun Control Inc. and passively submits is 2.5 times more likely to be injured than a woman who resists with a gun. So if you don't want to lie back and enjoy it, get a gun. Otherwise you may never become a mom." -- Ann Coulter
Here's a close one from Pete:
"The best defense is to put up no defense - give them what they want," -- Guns Don't Die: People Do, p. 125., The late Pete Shields, the former President of Handgun Control, Inc. --
 
The convenience store organizations say "don't resist", mainly because paying off a death benefit is cheaper than defending/settling a lawsuit.

Of course, they also believe that evil and despicable policy has nothing to do with the term "stop and rob", and has nothing to do with getting clerks killed by folks who want to avoid the complexity of witnesses.

There was a 7-11 next to my old college campus. They kept a double-barrel shotgun in plain sight on the film rack next to the cash register. Not one robbery occurred while that gun hung on the rack. Not a single attempt.

Apparently, they were not the usual franchise, as the manager told me that the owner had told the corporate bigshots to go stuff their policy.

After the store changed hands, the gun went away, and the robbers came back. Purely a coincidence, right?
 
Got one better for ya. A fellow-gunnie buddy (and occasional activist) once worked at a convenience store clerk in Glendale, Arizona many years ago. In his shop, employees were allowed, nay expected to carry (both open and concealed carry which was legal in Arizona for shop owners even before the CCW law was passed in 1994). Across the street was a Circle-K stop-n-rob.

The armed shop was never robbed during his many month tenure there. The Circle-K was robbed repeatedly. My friend moved on to bigger and better things. He later found out that his old store was sold, and the new owner revoked the armed policy. Yeah, as you might expect, the punch line is that the now unarmed clerks began getting robbed as well.

Rick
 
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