KOREAN NIGHTMARE: Ingenious:"Fast-Action"

[Mad Magyar]

This Korean ‘bad-boy” is certainly a nightmare to any would be “perps”, especially in Fast-Action. Even if the Koreans didn’t patent it first, FN/Browning (11 prototypes IIRC), they know how to market and build a unique pistol. This has to rank as the one of the best innovative features of the autoloader genre in the past 25 years. Firing in this mode has the best features of the DA versus SA automatic debate. DA fans can’t stand a “cocked- n-locked” pistol, and the Condition “1” aficionados won’t accept the transition from double action first shot to single action follow-ups. This Daewoo DH40 has the best of both worlds: totally safe hammer-down carry with instant readiness, yet a difference of only about a quarter pound of pull between the first shot and the rest. Chamber a round, thumb the hammer forward to about a quarter-cocked position where the firing pin retainer moves down and cams the firing pin safely forward, and then you put it on safety. Here, it appears to be in Condition “2”, but in reality can be put into action as fast as a standard Condition “1” cocked-n-locked mode. This is the way I carry in the cross-draw: perfectly safe. When the ambi-safety is released, the first few ounces of pressure on the trigger flip the hammer back into the full-cock position returning the firing pin into striking mode. The pistol is then fired single-action, eleven times in my case. The trigger pull is so light that it can be scary to the uninitiated. Damn, the pistol feels like it was designed for my hand. Certainly won’t take a back-seat when the “caliber wars” pop-up so regularly. Can a Kimber, Les Baer, Ed Brown, et al do this? Don’t think so… Many pistoleros are missing out on a truly unique feature & know nothing about it. Unless it is a matter of patent protection, I can’t see why only Daewoo and Para Ordnance are utilizing “fast-action”. Are there others?

 

[HighVelocity]

While I have not fired this particular pistol, I don't find myself wanting one. Calling it "fast action" doesn't put it into action faster than a 1911 in condition 1. Comparing a Daewoo to a Les Baer is blasphemous too BTW.

 

[Jim Watson]

I've shot one.
Strange feeling, the semicocked first shot actually had a lighter trigger pull than the SA thereafter, although with DA travel length. Not very accurate in 9mm, don't know about MM's .40.
There is a guy on Sigform with a busted one looking for help. Guess there isn't a Daewoo forum. Bruce Gray offered to help, he has to have worked on more peculiar guns than about any gunsmith in the business.

 

[MarineTech]

I'm glad you like your gun. Hate to tell you, but not everybody on the board is going to think it is the "be all, end all" of defensive handguns.

For what it's worth, I owned a Para Ordnance LDA for a while. It was the stainless CCW model. The LDA was nice, but it just didn't do it for me, and I transferred back to a single action 1911.

Can a Kimber, Les Baer, Ed Brown, et al do this?

I think you'll find there are thousands of owners of the guns you listed that don't think they need to.

To each their own.

 

[HSMITH]

I've shot one too, and thought it was pretty neat. For me, I prefer the Para LDA and Glock. I guess I am just too hardheaded to have a different feel in trigger pull even if it is a small one.

 

[Mad Magyar]

"Comparing a Daewoo to a Les Baer is blasphemous too BTW." I hope this was "tongue-n-cheek". Jim, you're right about the light trigger pull in "fast-action": quick fire-power.
Marine-Tech, not trying to convert anybody. Just to enlighten people that there are other quality pistols. In a strange way, this reminds me of the auto industry woes...For years, a U.S. stranglehold on autos, lacking in quality control, styling, etc, then comes the "Asian Invasion" with Toyota & Nissan leading the way...The GM layoffs, and now possibly Ford, why? Better products & competitive pricing have a way of finding the consumer. Thank goodness for the stringent gun & armament controls of Japan, or Ruger & S&W would be crapping in their pants.
High Velocity, I guess I didn't explain it well. When placed in "Fast-Action", you are in Cond.1, SA w/o displaying a cocked hammer....

 

[1911 guy]

American shooters and old habits.

Thank goodness for the stringent gun & armament controls of Japan, or Ruger & S&W would be crapping in their pants.

Nope. There are already several people who have responded with their dislike or general dismissal of the design. There's a reason for that. Not that it's a bad design, but that american shooters tend to be very traditional and won't change unless some clear advantage is made apparent to them. Our arms makers are cranking out serviceable and well made (for the most part) weapons we like, so they are not going to sell us on an idea that would require too much re-tooling and engineering on their part.

Besides, I like 1911's.

 

[PCRCCW]

Ill add my .02$ The Daewoo is a stellar little design and just a neat gun.
The trigger isnt its own design....they took it a step further and for those of carrying Cond 1, may be a great alternative. Mine was an absolute shooter and ran like any other top of the line gun. I wouldnt compare it to a 1000+ $ gun but in the -600$ range it will give most a run for there money.

Shoot well.

 

[Zak Smith]

That mechanism sounds identical to the FN SFS.

 

[poppy]

No, the FN SFS is not identical to what Mad described. The SFS is a true SA without a traditional manual safety. After racking the slide you must push the hammer forward to engage the SFS system. This action raises the ambidexdrous cocking lever and locks the slide and sear. To fire the pistol, push the cocking lever down to return the hammer to the cocked position, then squeeze the trigger. Every shot is exactly the same in single action. poppy

 

[Zak Smith]

Chamber a round, thumb the hammer forward to about a quarter-cocked position where the firing pin retainer moves down and cams the firing pin safely forward, and then you put it on safety. Here, it appears to be in Condition “2”, but in reality can be put into action as fast as a standard Condition “1” cocked-n-locked mode. This is the way I carry in the cross-draw: perfectly safe. When the ambi-safety is released, the first few ounces of pressure on the trigger flip the hammer back into the full-cock position returning the firing pin into striking mode.

This sounds identical to SFS up until the part where he said "the first few ounces of pressure on the trigger flip the hammer back." On the SFS, the ambi cocking lever (what used to be the safety) does it.

 

[pauli]

"well gee, i like the gun, but could you find a way to include more moving parts?"

 

[RyanM]

IIRC, Kel-Tecs also use a similar hammer mechanism, though the hammer is kept at half-cock instead of full cock. I think the "fast-action" thing is a pretty good idea. Allows a shooter to decide what he likes best; cocked-and-locked, hammer down DA, or hammer down FA. For people who have already made up their minds on cocked-and-locked carry, it doesn't seem that great. But I could definitely see how FA could be useful for those people who are uncomfortable with C and L, but don't want a heavy trigger pull on the first shot.

 

[Mad Magyar]

Ryan, you did a better job explaining in fewer words than I.....

Poppy, you made some excellent points....

 

[poppy]

The SA fans will continue to prefer cocked and locked. A fast action system like the SFS system on the FN may convert some DA/SA folks, who don't like C&L and also don't like the long DA first shot. Some 1911 and HP folks say that the fast action is a solution to a non-existent problem and they would be right of course from a technical standpoint.

But the reality is that in the real world, perception is reality and the perception is that C&L looks more dangerous than hammer down. I am a gun guy, with plenty of SA's including 1911 and HP, but I have to admit that when a local LE pulled me over and I saw his C&L 1911 on his hip, I felt uneasy for a second or two.

I am an engineer, I understand the mechanics, yet my feeling, all be it fleeting, was real. How do we expect non-gun people to understand that SA is OK?

Another perception problem is auto loader vs. DA revolver. Glocks, for example, are essentially bottom feeding DA revolvers. Very few complain about the lack of a manual safety on the revolver, yet it is my understanding that some LEA's require manual safeties on Glocks. poppy

 

[MCgunner]

IIRC, Kel-Tecs also use a similar hammer mechanism, though the hammer is kept at half-cock instead of full cock. I think the "fast-action" thing is a pretty good idea. Allows a shooter to decide what he likes best; cocked-and-locked, hammer down DA, or hammer down FA. For people who have already made up their minds on cocked-and-locked carry, it doesn't seem that great. But I could definitely see how FA could be useful for those people who are uncomfortable with C and L, but don't want a heavy trigger pull on the first shot.

Nope, the Kel Tec is a hammer fired (internal hammer) gun that rests uncocked in battery. It's a true DAO with a stock ten pound spring and 8.5 lb optional. Perhaps you're thinking of the Glock "Safe Action"? It's a partially cocked striker fired gun. I'm not sure about the Kahr. It's quite a light trigger action, think it's a striker, but don't know if it's of the Glock variety being partially cocked. Don't think so, though. It doesn't have the doo dad on the trigger like the Glocks.

 

[George Hill]

Looks like the Love-Child of a Beretta and a S&W.

Decent pistols overal.

 

[RyanM]

Nope, the Kel Tec is a hammer fired (internal hammer) gun that rests uncocked in battery. It's a true DAO with a stock ten pound spring and 8.5 lb optional. Perhaps you're thinking of the Glock "Safe Action"? It's a partially cocked striker fired gun. I'm not sure about the Kahr. It's quite a light trigger action, think it's a striker, but don't know if it's of the Glock variety being partially cocked. Don't think so, though. It doesn't have the doo dad on the trigger like the Glocks.

I coulda sworn Kel-Tecs used some kinda partially-cocked DA, which required the slide to be partially retracted to fire again when dry-firing. Oh, well.

And Kahrs use a half-cocked striker pretty much exactly like Glocks. The Glock trigger safety is just a bar which physically blocks the trigger from being pulled unless the safety is pushed in first. If the safety is sticking out, the other end (the end you don't push) rams into the frame if you try to move the trigger back. By pulling the trigger safety first, you rotate the other end so that it won't hit the frame.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've had a DP-51 (9mm) and have a DH-40 (.40 S&W). They're fine guns.

Believe it or not, they feel and look a bit like a S&W built by SIG and are very dependent on the S&W design.

I regret having traded the 9mm away, as that particular one was a tack-driver. My DH-40 is good/accurate, but not as good as the 9mm one.

I like the hammer-down SA (if only it can give you an edge in IDPA <grin>). The safety, incidentally, works in all three trigger modes. A LOT of take-up that's very light and easily staged (if you feel the need), and then it releases just like a normal SA trigger/hammer.

I like the fact that the gun can use S&W Model 59 hi-cap mags, without modification in the 9mm version, and a little tweaking will make them work in the .40 model, too. (They'll stick out about 1/8" farther than they should for flush fit.)

 

[Stasher1]

I coulda sworn Kel-Tecs used some kinda partially-cocked DA, which required the slide to be partially retracted to fire again when dry-firing. Oh, well.

IIRC, the P3AT uses a slightly different action than the rest of their lineup which requires the slide to be retracted to fire again when dry-firing or in the event of a dud round. The P32 and the P11 are true DAO, like a revolver.