Krav Maga

[JamisJockey]

Anyone here train in Krav Maga?
I'm looking for something actually self defense orientated that isn't geared towards UFC or 10 year old Karate Kids, and found a Krav Maga instructor not too far from me.

 

[possenti]

I've heard it's a pretty good system, but I've always been kinda skeptical about some of the "finger jab" type stuff I've seen. I just don't think you would retain the fine motor skills to do this when you're pumped on adreneline.

I'm curious myself about this style. There's a school near me also, and I think I'll check it out when I get time. I'm about 6 months away from my black belt in TaeKwonDo, and I plan on "branching out" after I get to it. Not sure how extensive grappling is in Krav Maga, but if there's any to it, I'm there. I miss my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu days like an old friend...

 

[Ivy Mike]

I've been training in KM for about 4 months now. Thus far, I have really learned a lot about how to react in a fight and how to trust certain reactions.

The first thing that the instructor drilled into us was to escape if possible. It doesn't matter what someone calls you or says they can do to you. If you can get away, you should. The thing that most impressed me was the utter simplicity of the system. There are no flashy punches, strikes or kicks. Grappling isn't as intricate as BJJ. The techniques are realistic and many don't apply to sport fighting (tournaments and what not) as they are considered cheating. The fighting is dirty and very hard and would get you disqualified from a tournament. They may save your life on the street.
You learn how to attack a person (not just defend against) in order to stop a threat (a phrase my instructor used that piqued my interest as I heard my CCW instructor say the same thing)
Punches, kicks, grappling is kept simple and realistic. For example, You are taught how to put someone into an arm bar, but instead of holding till submission, you injure them and escape the situation. One of my favorite strikes is the roundhouse to the knee. In this simple kick, you swing your leg in a short arc at no more than the opponents knee height. Your leg stays bent and you contact the outside of the opponents knee with the ball of your foot. This straightens the knee and locks it. Now, the real damage comes. Your leg is still bent with the ball of your foot on the bad guys knee. You simply thrust your leg out in a forward kick. This will really hurt as you have just "kicked through" someones knee

I really enjoy the training and am a firm believer in the hurt factor. If you don't get hurt a little in the training, you are in the wrong course.
http://www.contactcombatsystems.com <---place I train at.

Just an FYI, this is NOT something you can really compete in as the moves and techniques are designed to hurt someone. I'm sure there are KM tournaments, but I have no interest in those. It ain't flashy, it won't be on the cover of Black Belt and you won't get any trophies. You will learn how to kick someones rear should the need ever arise. It's up to you to avoid creating the need.

 

[The_Antibubba]

Vegas Krav

I've driven by that place, Clean. You sound like it's been a good experience.

 

[dwestfall]

I've been in it for about a year and a half now. I like it. A lot of the stuff starts with a groin shot and goes downhill from there. It's definitely not kind.

My only problem is that I'm 6'5 and we don't have many big guys in our classes so when we do 6-on-1 choke drills I often feel like Gulliver.

We've done some gun defense work. I hadn't done anything from the muzzle side before so it's nice to have something in that dept, although I wouldn't rate the gun knowledge of the instructors very highly.

We've also done some knife work but I have a suspicion that it would only work on somebody who didn't really know much about how to use a knife -- it's pretty basic so far. I have my Orange belt test coming up in a week or two. The Yellow belt test was 5 hours of pure exhaustion!

 

[JamisJockey]

I'm 5'3" so I'll be in a reverse situation than you're in.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to plan on getting set up for it, waiting for the instructor to send me the info. I talked to him yesterday, real nice guy.

 

[Ktulu]

It depends on whom you talk to but KM is becoming very popular and it's a good system. It is not the end all be all in martial arts. You'll find people that for whatever reason will tell you Krav is the only martial art worth doing and you'll find people who find fault with everything about it.

I've been doing it for about 6 months now. Got my yellow belt last Saturday. It was the most physically demanding thing I've ever done. I like it a lot. I go to what I consider a good school with good instructors. That is the single most important thing about training in the martial art, your instructors.

Find a good school with good instructors. Take some test classes to find out if you like it or not. Run away from anyone trying to hard sell you a yearlong commitment. Run away from anyone telling you that Krav is the best martial art ever and that someone training in Krav is the ultimate warrior. Use your good judgment.

You might find these forums interesting. http://12.107.28.178/index.php

 

[MK11]

I've been doing it for about two years. I've gotten a lot out of it but as others have said, it's definitely not the "end all" of self defense. It seems like different schools have a different emphasis depending on the instructors--some are much more ground-oriented than others. The best thing about it is the emphasis on mindset and conditioning. It's worth checking out.

 

[MrMurphy]

It's not the be-all and end-all but it's nasty, dirty, efficient and quick, and it'll keep you alive.

I know a couple guys (Israelis) who've done it "for real" as well as in training and it does work.

It's worth your time as a base for other types of fighting (gun/knife/stick).

 

[Don Gwinn]

Check them out and make sure they're real. There's a lot of fake Krav Maga out there right now being used to cash in.

I'm not qualified to judge Krav Maga as a fighting system, but I know fraud is not helpful.

 

[ClonaKilty]

After doing some MMA classes I looked into Krav. I highly respect the rigorous workout you get, and the no nonsense approach. It is a good system and I think if you learn it you'd be in a great position to defend yourself.

In an ideal situation, I would take Krav, BJJ, Muay Thai, and Boxing. The latter three seem to have much more sparring -- actual hard physical contact than Krav does (Kravists correct me if I'm wrong here). I am convinced that sparring is essential to learning how to fight because in a real fight you have to learn to deal with being hit hard, and with being winded.

 

[Ivy Mike]

From my limited expierience in KM and even more limited expierience (as in I have never studied it) of the other three mentioned, I'd be inclined to agree with you...sorta.

KM training for me always seemed to focus on one important thing and that was escape. You look for a way out at every turn. If I can dodge a punch and run away, I will. If I can kick him once and jump to freedom I wil. If I end up in a protracted fight for several minutes, so be it, but I'm always looking to get away. The others mentioned above include more hard contact, but I attribute this to their more sporting alignment.

BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling: You must continue to make contact to win.

Krav Maga: You make what contact you must and you win when you escape alive. Bonus points for less harm done to you.

Antibubba, the place is clean and professional. Could be a little larger, but the instructor is good and the training is real. I looked long and hard before commiting. BEWARE: Some places treat KM as an aerobic excercise and don't focus enough on the aspects that save your life. Excercise somewhere else.

 

[Ktulu]

Although I think we can agree there is no perfect system or combination of systems, I personally agree with ClonaKilty's assessment. All those systems bring good things to the table. You may even notice that Krav uses many of the same techniques you'll find in some of those systems.

KM is good stuff but you can be a much more effective fighter by cross training in other arts. If, for example, the fight goes to the ground I want to be able to break arms, destroy shoulders and knees, and choke the attacker out if need be. While KM has some of these techniques I'd rather also be proficient at BJJ.

 

[possenti]

BEWARE: Some places treat KM as an aerobic excercise and don't focus enough on the aspects that save your life. Excercise somewhere else.

I know what you're saying about not learning techniques and only doing aerobics, but endurance is also vital. Bruce Lee's philosophy is you should end every fight ASAP. That should be plan A. Plan B should be to outlast your opponent if it comes to that.

UFC champion Frank Shamrock said his best weapon was endurance. He said that if he fights a stronger opponent who is out-fighting him, he just hangs on until he gets tired and then beats the sh** out of him. I think his match with Tito Ortiz showed this well.

Personally I hate cardio training. It's not as fun as hitting stuff and rolling on the mat with a partner, but it's a vital weapon to have in your arsenal.

 

[proletariat]

Krav Maga is not a be all end all martial art. From what ive seen Krav Maga tends to differ depending on who you take it from. Some places its an aerobic class others its a kill the enemy/terminate with extreme prejudice type military atmosphere. Be carefull with those places because if take that type of attitude to heart you'll be spending the next 15 to 20 making big rocks into little rocks while you guard your cornhole. It also seems as if people are using Krav for more of a marketing tool.
Cross training in different martial arts is the key with sparring and progressive resistance. Without really sparring you will not have the timing to strike and make distance for getting away from a confrontation. Crosstraining helps so you will have a standup/clinch/and ground game.
Anyone will tell you that in a real fight its difficult to kick someone in the balls or poke someones eye. I guess what im trying to say is that if your not in a martial art school where they're not sparring reality based or "alive" as straight blast gym says then you'd better move on because if you try do implement a technique without practicing it real time with your opponent really resisting then your in for a reality check.
One place I recomend is any "straight blast gym" affiliated school. They also have a realistic knife defense system called stab created Karl Tanswell. Its very realistic because the defense starts when your already stabbed and bleeding not when someone is comming at you with a overhead knife stab or an exagerated knife thrust.

BJJ/Muy Thai/Boxing/Greco

 

[JamisJockey]

UFC champion Frank Shamrock said his best weapon was endurance.

My neighbor has fought twice at the local amateur level, and both times he was outlasted by his opponents.
I get my Aerobic excercise cycling. I don't mean riding a huffy around the block. From March-Oct I average about 150 miles a week on my road bike. I also race (aerobic hell) in a local Criterium series. I'm in above average aerobic condition, even at my winter low (right now). Hell, just two weeks ago I sprinted from terminal to terminal in IAH trying to make a connection.

 

[Ivy Mike]

No martial art is the be all end all of martial arts.

The only way to get good at fighting is to do it regularly. Now, how you do it is up to you.

Here in Las Vegas, I had my choice of traditional Jiu Jitsu, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Kung Fu, Kenpo...you name it, its here. I chose Krav Maga because it fit best with what I had learned from CCW classes.
The first rule is get away if possible.
The second rule is diffuse the situation...then get away.
The third rule is stop the threat.

BJJ and the like teach you how to submit an opponent, but if you go and snap someones elbow AFTER you have them pinned...you could be looking at an assault charge yourself. KM has taught me to inflict damage quickly if I must. Hurt them quick and get away before they can recover. Sounds cowardly, but better judged by 12 than carried by 6 because I thought an arm bar might hold some cracked out, blade wielding nutjob.

Like I said, the best way to learn to fight is to actually do it. Failing that, train train train. You will fall back on your training, not rise to the occasion.

 

[dwestfall]

KM training for me always seemed to focus on one important thing and that was escape.

That's odd -- my KM instructor tells us to make sure your opponent STAYS DOWN and will NOT COME BACK. In fact, the counterattack goes ON and ON and ON until your opponent is lying in a puddle on the ground. Then you walk away.

The sparring I've seen is designed to demonstrate your ability to do the counters but is pretty artificial compared to the rest of the training. It's almost like boxing. You see an opportunity, do a few moves, then break off and wait for your opponent to do his thing....

 

[Ivy Mike]

I'm not saying that leaving a combat effective opponent is OK. You need to END the fight. However, if I can escape instead of restarting or prolonging a potentially bad situation, I will.

Escape if you can, but be prepared to turn your opponent into the afore mentioned puddle. The sparring I have done relates to this methodology. You attack your attacker and attempt to do the max amount of damage quickly. If you must continue, then continue doing grievous damage. If you can get away without continuing, do so. An escape gives you a better chance at survival. You can't get hurt by your attacker if you are no longer around.

Simple odds.

 

[newman32]

I took Krav for the practical reasons that many others do. Compared to others, I thought it was the best available. No katas, no uniforms, no mysticism. It is a good workout, and you can gain a lot in a short time by just mastering the basics.

I left because my instructor gave me doubts as to his knowledge of "real world" and I began to see a lot of the TMA creep into the cirruculum. For example, one class we spent almost entirely working on reverse round-house kicks. Total waste of time in my opinion but the instructor had a karate background. Street useful? I doubt it. I saw more and more "fancy stuff" for my liking as time went on.

The knife defenses as demonstrated would likely leave me dead.

Also, my instructor did not see the value in having a gun for self-defense because "one time I shot a glock with a laser sight and I saw how it was imposible to keep it steady on a target, so how can it be useful?"

So, I decided to leave. I think it is a good program, but the key is the instruction.

I'm of the same mindset at clean97GTI. Awareness, avoidance, de-escelation, and escape come to mind as my primare defenses.

 

[dave3006]

Clean97GTI, You can have a superior position on your opponent (Mount/side mount). He will be trying to strike or escape. You simply break his arm in one fluid motion. It is no different than knocking him out.

You would be surprized at how fast you can break a persons arm that is not trained in grappling. From the time you hit the ground, until the break, 1-3 seconds. They won't even know what you did.

When I first started training, I remember Rickson Gracie asking me a question about my previous Karate training. He said, "How do you know it will work?" "Have you ever knocked anyone out".

Pick the martial art that allows you to test your skills to the point of submission with a resisting opponent so that you can test and trust the skills you have.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Obviously you'd need to adapt your technique(s) to the fight itself.

I do agree that you do need to actually spar with a live opponent who fights back. It should be as real as possible.
I am a firm believer in the "hurt" method of training. If you don't get hurt a little in the training, you are doing something wrong.

I would counter your break however by attempting to stop you before we went to the ground. By using a simple roundhouse to the knee, I will have destroyed the joint without ever having to go to the ground. It all depends on what you are studying and how its applied though. As has been stated before, there is no perfect fighting system. I'd have serious trouble if I was grappling with someone who has actually studied grappling in depth. I can do it, but my training doesn't focus that much on it...yet. I'm still fairly new though.

 

[dave3006]

In the real world, it is EXTREMELY rare you will disable someone by a kick to the knee. Timing, distance, and Murphy's law says this will not work 2 times out of 100. Adrenaline is a factor too. If it were that simple, there would be cripples covering the planet from previous fights.

How do you practice crippling a knee? You will never know if it will work in the street? Maybe. Most likely not.

Good training does not have to hurt. Fighting will hurt. Training is different than fighting.

 

[Ivy Mike]

If it does not hurt, how do you know it will be effective?
That sounds kinda stupid, but you have to trust the tactic and know that it will work.

To me, the best way to learn something is to do it. Training to fight usually involves fighting on some level.

To give an example, I was sparring with a smaller student. We had started sparring and I attempted to move in and was throwing a punch in the process. She deflected the punch and countered with a blow of her own, now, I had lost my balance and caught the strike right in my eye. She did not intend to land it nor to hurt me, but it taught both of us a lesson.
She learned to take advantage of an unprepared foe and I learned what not to do again.
A few bumps and bruises areto be expected and I'd miss them if they weren't there.

As far as what works in the real world and what doesn't...it depends on the situation. Going to the ground and breaking someones arm may not be the best idea if he's got buddies around. Staying on your feet gives you a better chance at fleeing or facing another opponent. Kicks to the legs can be devastating when implemented at the right time. I don't think Muay Thai fighters would work so hard at them if they didn't work.
I practice kicks on a dummy and when sparring with a real person. I also know that the human knee is only supposed to bend one way. If you bend it in another, the opponent is going to have a hard time standing. I know I can land the kick and execute it properly. Whether or not I get the chance to use it in a real fight is another story entirely. It depends on the individual encounter.
I'm not going to discuss how to fight on a board because all it does it create speculation and mis-inform folks as to what works and what doesn't. Most techniques have some application, but you have to know when to use them.
Thats where training comes in. The training should be realistic as possible.