Krebs Custom SOCOM .308 AK

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sturmgewehr

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The Krebs Custom SOCOM .308 AK is one amazing rifle. The accuracy of this 16" barreled rifle will challenge claims by AR guys that AK's can't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside. I think you might be surprised what this rifle can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cRJ07Rbwxg

Questions and comments are welcome.
 
I'll keep my S308 that has similar (and arguably better) features and didn't run me anywhere near $1900. I'd also rather have a SCAR 17s for only a few hundred dollars more. Someone could reproduce that thing with a their own saiga 308 for much less. One could use a vepr and come in around that price.
 
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Unless you're a master AK gun smith, I would like to see the average Joe make a rifle comparable to a Krebs Custom. Sure, you could hang all the bolt on accessories on an AK. That is only 1/2 of the job. Krebs hand fits every component, recrowns the barrel, trues the threads so you can mount a suppressor, smooths every edge. When you pull the bolt back on a Krebs AK it feels like its on roller bearings. Until you've actually handled a Krebs rifle, you can't understand just how nice they are.

Are custom built guns for everyone? No. For example, some people scoff at Ed Brown 1911's and say they could buy a Taurus 1911 and make it do everyone the Ed Brown will. They see no point in a custom gun. Some people never develop that appreciation for such things.
 
Which of those things takes a master gunsmith to do?

Surely not recrown? That is a relatively easy task. It is something most people do not have the tools for. It is also something that really only makes an improvement if the weapon doesn't already have a good crown. If one wants to recrown and lacks the tools any gunsmith worth the name can do it and many good smiths do it for a very reasonable fee.

Threading? This is hardly master gunsmith stuff either. Are they truing threads or just threading it properly to begin with as the S308 does not come with a threaded barrel. Again a good smith will give you a quality barrel threading for a very reasonable price and it will be cocentric and good to go for a suppressor.

A shop like rifle dynamics only charges $150 to cut a barrel, recrown it, thread it, and pin a muzzle device. We are only talking about to of those 4 tasks.

When you pull the bolt back on a Krebs AK it feels like its on roller bearings

Polishing the action mirror smooth takes time but is not that difficult. Stones and polishing compound are pretty cheap to buy. On an AK knowing what to polish and doing it with out ruining anything is not too tough. All this is assuming that on an AK rifle such a thing offers some practical benefit worth the effort.

smooths every edge.

This is more of the above. My Draco had enough truly sharp edges I felt it worth doing this. On my S308 there wasn't a sharp edge to bite me anywhere on it anyhow.

Fitting, and otherwise polishing and tuning up an AK trigger is also very low on the difficulty scale. This is not a 1911 trigger. Heck it doesn't even approach doing a ruger revolver or a j frame.

Refinishing a gun is hardly master gun smith stuff either. Take 45 seconds with google and you will find all kinds of average joes who have done very good jobs with their own guns. If you actually use your guns that pretty finish.

Have you ever done any work like this? Please don't project your limitation onto everyone else.

Until you've actually handled a Krebs rifle, you can't understand just how nice they are.

I have (not the tritely named "socom" 308, but a x39 gun) and I stand by my previous post. Thank you for insinuating that I am ignorant though. I mean if I don't share your opinion sure it is simply because of my inexperience and ignorance right?

Are custom built guns for everyone? No. For example, some people scoff at Ed Brown 1911's and say they could buy a Taurus 1911 and make it do everyone the Ed Brown will. They see no point in a custom gun. Some people never develop that appreciation for such things.

Having worked on guns for years I would be the first to say that there is a world of difference between custom 1911s and custom AKs. It is apples to oranges both in terms of the amount of knowledge and work that each takes.

I have no issues spending more when it actually gets more. My AR is a Noveske that sports goodies like a T1 aimpoint etc. I have about $2k in one of my S12s. I have a multi thousand dollar 1911. Again despite your insinuation I am not a person that does not recognize why some guns cost more, nor a person who cannot appreciate things that really add value. Rather, I simply do not see that with this S308. In fact if I were to drop $1900 on a S308 it would not be set up like that gun.

It shoots as accurately as a number of S308s I've seen. I will say you shoot better with irons than most. I assume it is equally reliable. Thus apart from the add ons and a nicer finish (which is bound to get dinged up if the gun is used for much of anything anyways) what does it have that makes it work better than a much more basic s308. Now take that basic S308 give it the add ons and even a pretty finish if you like and you have the same thing for much less money, just like I said.

[retracted statement about possible motives for pushing this product] EDIT

Also, how exactly did you come to the conclusion that with the Mako hand guard that rifle is free floated?
 
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Wow, $1900 for it, that seems pretty steep. They're using some "low end" parts for $1900. By "low end" I'm talking about the tapco grip and mako rails. Not that I have a problem with those parts, I'd put them on my AK's, but they're at a relatively cheaper price point compared to other manufacturers products. The vltor stock was probably the most expensive part on the rifle.

I guess what I'm trying to say is; they're asking too much.
 
tend to agree. i've run krebs aks before, and although smoother than my arsenal sam7, i couldn't see the the extra money being worth it (and no, i'm not opposed to custom work). that socom .308 looks nice, but i wouldn't spend that kind of money on one. and why does everything need to be named socom?
 
Frankly I haven't been too impressed by Krebs Custom. Years ago my friend and his son both bought matching AKs from Krebs. Turns out BOTH of the front sights were canted! Krebs blamed this on a laser that was used to align the sights. I'm sure Century Arms could use the same excuse. When the gun was sent back, my friend had Krebs install his $65 aperture sight. This part is WAY overpriced and could probably be made in China for 65 CENTS, but it's the only game in town if you want a decent fixed aperture rear sight. So somebody at Krebs installs this sight and tells my friend that it has been zeroed. When he gets the rifle back, the slider doesn't even engage the teeth in the sight! The guy that answers the phone at Krebs says to "just reverse the slider and it will work." Say what??? The only nice thing about his older AKs is they used a hammer and trigger that does not hold open the bolt. But now even those aren't available and they just use Tapco parts. I thought about buying their full length rail for my AK but considering the trouble we've had with their simple aperture rear sights, there's no way I'll take the chance.

Dave Sinko
 
I don't know about 1900 but I can tell you that there are some very nice features that would take some talent and tools to do yourself. I have converted a few of these. There are a number of expensive parts on that rifle with I would consider "top shelf". I would consider it more worth the money if the exterior were completely refinished with a professional tough matching finish (which it may be). The things I can't do at home are thread a barrel, true and recrown a muzzle, and sandblast or bake on a finish. That railed rear sight is an expensive unit. Over-all I like the rifle shown very much. I would be curious how well those top rails are holding zero with scopes mounted on them.
I am guessing the parts are like this:
rifle: $450 (wholesale?)
rear rail with peep: $300 retail
safety lever: $40
modded trigger: $65
railed handguard $135 ish?
buttstock assembly $175 ish
pistol grip $25
flash hider $ 90
css mag: $45
refinishing materials: $25
Total : $1350
Then they have their labor.
 
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The Mako rails are the most expensive on the market. The short rail Krebs is using sells for $294. The full rail I reviewed previously sells for $384.

You are correct, there isn't much margin in such a custom rifle. I will travel over to the Krebs shop later this year to document everything that goes into a rifle build such as this. It should prove to be interesting.
 
it's the only game in town if you want a decent fixed aperture rear sight.

Are you talking about this thing?

peepsights2.jpg


Not only is it overpriced it not the only game in town and it is not even a good sight. A peep sight mounted that far forward is, how to put this nicely, less than ideal. So much so that I would not even consider it an upgrade. Tech sights are a much better option, the TWS peep is better, as are the various ways one could add a diopter rear sight.


I would consider it more worth the money if the exterior were completely refinished with a professional tough matching finish (which it may be).

I believe that it is refinished, I can attest to how tough the finish is or is not.

I would be curious how well those top rails are holding zero with scopes mounted on them.

Well, from all the reports I've read. However, I believe the TWS product has eclipsed it. The TWS sits lower, costs half as much, doesn't add an extra impediment to breaking the gun down, works with out the tang (that is to say it allows the use of a folding stock), and by all reports holds zero very well. It also sits inline with the new TWS hand guard and top tail.
 
The Mako rails are the most expensive on the market. The short rail Krebs is using sells for $294. The full rail I reviewed previously sells for $384.

How are they free floating the barrel? Thanks.

Also how are they better, and thus how do they justify the price over some of the other prominent options such as: the various MI hand guards, Ultimak, TWS?
 
It doesn't free float the barrel, that's one of those dumb things that creep out of your mouth when it takes over from your brain. A note is in the bottom of the description on the video that points this out.

I like and use the MI system. However I believe the Mako system is more rugged in that it attaches directly to the receiver and the front handguard retainer. To move the rail you would literally have to bend the receiver.

The MI system clamps directly to the barrel. Many people have claimed this degrades accuracy. I've not seen a major degradation in accuracy in my test rifles, but I can't discount what others have reported (I believe Nutnfancy did a video and claimed he noticed a drop in accuracy with the MI rail).

The TWS system is a good system, but I don't believe it's the end all. It relies on the spring properties of aluminum to keep the top cover centered.

i-t9xgTFD-L.gif

The entire top cover is relatively thin aluminum as well (compared to the Krebs rail). While I've found that on the range under a controlled environment it holds zero well, if you put a heavy 20x scope on it and start rough handling it, I question its ability to maintain precise zero. I will however say I've never tried to bang it around enough to cause it to lose zero. But then I wouldn't use the system on a "go to" rifle as I don't believe that's its strong point. I do use it for testing the accuracy of various AK's on the range and also testing out scopes, and for that it has served me well. What I do like about the TWS system is that it sits lower than the Krebs rail. Neither will provide a proper cheek weld without a riser though. For that, I use a Mako side folding polymer stock with a Galil type hinge that has a riser that works very well. But this stock is also quite expensive.

The Krebs rail has been sold to military contractors (several hundred units) who have used it over seas and have submitted positive feedback. They continue to order additional units.
 
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Not only is it overpriced it not the only game in town and it is not even a good sight. A peep sight mounted that far forward is, how to put this nicely, less than ideal. So much so that I would not even consider it an upgrade. Tech sights are a much better option, the TWS peep is better, as are the various ways one could add a diopter rear sight.
I used to be of the same opinion, that an aperture sight that far forward was not a good idea. I never commented on it publicly as I don't like to talk about things I've never used. So I ordered one. Now I have one on all of my AK's. It improved my groups noticeably.

They are expensive.
 
One other thing to take into consideration when calculating the price. A Federal Excise Tax of 11% is paid on each rifle produced by Krebs (or any manufacturer).
 
I like Krebs but I tend to agree in the current consensus that this particular rifle is over priced. Now, to clarify: I'd choose this over a springfield Socom II everyday of the week. Point of interest: the fact that's a very well made and exceptionally accurate kolashnikov means I would take -this- rifle over *many* options available.

Also: to keep things in perspective, $1,900 is the retail price. The SOCOM II retails at $2,176. I still think the rifle is slightly over priced for what it is. Aside from Mark's magic gogo juice finish - I can literally reproduce the rifle.

I've done a a saiga conversion, it wasn't terribly hard and I did it a lot better than a lot of other home gunsmithing examples I've seen. I could go over the details suffice to say I'll state I've done the job and a few bolt accessories don't make it worth $1,900. More to the point: mine was polished, bead blasted and then I hot salt blued it (black oxide).

Some extra polishing and a few accessories doesn't ad up to $1,900. In all reality this equates to quibbling however because if it were $1,600 I'd be singing Kreb's praises from the roof tops. Woo, $300.... *jerks hand in a rapid vertical motion* I've spent more than that on ammunition for a day shooting session. Particularly in .308. <-battle rifle junkie. -_-;
 
I get that you are pimping the stuff you review. Carry on.
I am not "pimping" anything. That implies I get paid for reviews and I don't. I make no money from any manufacturer or retailer on my reviews. I have nothing to gain from posting a favorable review of a product. As a matter of fact, I've gotten more traffic to the negative reviews of products I've posted.

I see no reason for your hostility. I've not insulted you in the slightest. I would appreciate your responding to me in a civil manner. There is no need to imply I'm a "pimp" or that I'm somehow misleading people for a profit. I respect that others may not agree with my assessment of a product. No one agrees with everything I say and I don't expect them to.
 
Do want! I didn't know about 308 AK's, but it definitely would be worth is as a special occasion gift like a wedding present or college graduation gift.
 
I have nothing to gain from posting a favorable review of a product.

Other than a willingness of folks to send things to be reviewed, right? Further is it not in your interest to have people view your videos. You get to make videos by people providing products for review. If you are paying full retail for everything you review, I will gladly retract the statement.

I see no reason for your hostility. I've not insulted you in the slightest.

Apart from your repeated insinuations that my opinions were based on ignorance? Or were you using the pronoun "you" for the same reasons you claimed the gun was free floated?
 
I'm not going to argue with you, Girodin. You can play in the mud alone, I have no desire to roll around in it with you.
 
in my list I forgot to mention a probable custom handguard retainer, gas tube and trigger guard which do add some to the cost of production. Cost not considered at the end of the day that's a hell of a rifle. So are many others I guess.
 
Very nice review.

One day I'll get my grubby mitts on one of those rifles.
Until then I have to make do with what I can zap together.

Building your own rifle is like putting together your own computer, it works fine but some how you always get that one driver that won't update. And every month or so it just turns off out of the blue... With guns it seems I get one good deep scratch just as I'm putting the last part on.

If you have the cash its nice to get something you use right out of the box.
 
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