Lasers: dangerous toys?

[blood_donor]

At the pistol range the other day, a guy was shooting a 9mm semi auto of some type (XD? Glock?) which had a laser hanging on the accessory rail in front of the trigger.

I am not a IPSC ranked shooter or anything, but I was keeping my shots in about a 6" circle at 20 feet. This guy was making more of a pattern than a group--fliers all over the paper.

It seems to me that the laser was doing more harm than good--he was chasing it around the paper, rather than practicing trigger control, etc. Because the laser dot is so far out, small movements of your hand make for big jumpy movements of the dot.

What is the legitimate role of a laser on a defensive firearm?

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

You need to learn to shoot before adding do-dads. I think they would be helpful when you can't bring the gun up to obtain a sight picture, and they may occasionially have a deterrent effect if the BG can see right where the bullet is going to hit him (or so he thinks...POI and POA aren't spot on with those things from the reviews I've read).

I hear cats love to chase the laser on walls

 

[wooderson]

I got one of the little P22s with a factory laser - the laser itself is sighted well, but I'm much more accurate with good old three-dot sights.

My cats, however, appreciate the laser.

 

[38snapcaps]

I have a S&W 642 that came with Crimson Trace laser grips. I wanted them for home protection mainly for my wife as she is not an active shooter and would be hard pressed to get a correct sight picture on an intruder in the dark. Placing the red dot on the "target" would be much easier for her. I compared the laser to regular sights and in the dark I have alot more confidence in my aim.

However, at the range, in daylight, I found my accuracy is definitely worse than using sights. Just to make sure it's not just me (59) I had my 29 yr old son in law try them-same results.

I think they are an advantage in the dark or low light conditions. But for
target shooting or on the street defensive use I don't see how they are much use.

Oh, and yes, my cat is crazy for them!

 

[acdodd]

Maybe the Laser didn't have anything to do with the way he shot.
Maybe he just can't shoot with or without a laser.
I have a set of Crimson Trace grips on my 637 and after I got them sighted in the bullet hole is where the dot was. The dot does jump around a lot but it makes me concentrate on my grip and trigger squeeze. It is another tool to use to improve.
They will not compensate for lack of practice or poor shooting habits.
That said I really like mine.
I practice with them and my iron sights every time I shoot it.
AC

 

[M2 Carbine]

Lasers on guns are like anything else.
If you don't know that you are doing they won't do you much good.
What most people know about lasers on guns is what they see in the movies, which of course is mostly wrong and stupid.

I've been using (good) lasers on guns for several years now and won't have a defense gun without one (if available).

The laser won't correct for poor shooting technique and like any other type of shooting it takes continued practice to get good and fast with it.

Many people try the laser one time, can't do squat with it, their shooter's ego gets bruised and they declare that lasers on guns are useless.


"What is the legitimate role of a laser on a defensive firearm?"

Well how about this.
Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light on a pistol grip 12gs shotgun, fired from the hip.
#4 and 00 Buckshot fired from 17 yards.
Wolf slugs in the small target and the BG's blue jeans, fired fast from the hip, from 26 yards.


Now what are you going to do with this one? (I hope none of us ever have to decide what to do in this case)
20 feet across your dark living room.


I put the laser/light on the BG's ear and skinned him with #4 buckshot.
Then put the laser on his nose and used a slug. (I have to adjust the sight down and to the left a little )


How about the pistol when it's just light enough to make out the target.


Shot while adjusting the Crimson Trace laser on my S&W 2 inch J frame.

 

[blood_donor]

Re: lasers in the dark

If it is too dark to see your iron sights, how do you know what you are shooting at?

Wouldn't it be better to have a flashlight mounted on the accessory rail? You can get a sight picture with a flashlight.

 

[acdodd]

Here is a link to some wicked laser pointers.
Cats beware.
http://www.wickedlasers.com/

 

[blood_donor]

Another comment--lasers make for inconsistent training. Jeff Cooper (MHRIP) liked to say that when shooting for your life, "front sight, squeeze". If you train to quickly raise your firearm to eye level, so that it points naturally and you develop "muscle memory", you can shoot quickly and accurately in all kinds of conditions.

If you have to fumble around with turning on a laser, that is one more thing to fail or screw up.

I also can't help but notice--I have never seen a police officer with a laser sight on his firearm. Night sights, yes, but never lasers. Do the police use them, and if not, why not?

 

[M2 Carbine]

blood_donor
If it is too dark to see your iron sights, how do you know what you are shooting at?

Wouldn't it be better to have a flashlight mounted on the accessory rail? You can get a sight

What if you can't or don't have time to raise the gun to the firing position to use your sights?
In the first hostage picture could you hit the BG in the head point shooting in the dark, even with the light mounted on the gun?

The targets I posted were all shot when it was just light enough to identify the target but way too dark to see iron sights. With my 63 year old eyes night sights are WAY too slow anyhow but I can quickly and easily hit COM with the laser.

Your right, IMO the laser/light is the way to go. This is the same target with the laser and light on (you have a choice and I leave the switch set for laser/light)
For some reason the camera sees the Red laser dot as a White dot with a Red ring around it.

 

[Geronimo45]

A laser won't be a lot of help to somebody who's a rotten shot. A custom Dan Wesson 1911 won't, either. They need to learn to shoot accurately with irons - how to keep all shots on target, etc. Once that's done, a laser will help. Otherwise a laser will just let you know what wall you'll probably hit.

M2Carbine - you don't shoot that hostage-taking-sunglasses-man target in your house, do ya?

 

[M2 Carbine]

#9
Another comment--lasers make for inconsistent training. Jeff Cooper (MHRIP) liked to say that when shooting for your life, "front sight, squeeze". If you train to quickly raise your firearm to eye level, so that it points naturally and you develop "muscle memory", you can shoot quickly and accurately in all kinds of conditions.

If you have to fumble around with turning on a laser, that is one more thing to fail or screw up.

I also can't help but notice--I have never seen a police officer with a laser sight on his firearm. Night sights, yes, but never lasers. Do the police use them, and if not, why not?

Police departments are slow to adopt to anything new, especially if it costs money.
You should have heard the comments when I tried to tell the police, in the early 1960's how usefull helicopters would be in police work.:banghead:

But there are Police and Sheriff's Departments using lasers now, plus all branches of the military.

You don't "fumble around with turning on a laser". That's why you practice.
In most cases I turn the laser on and make the last minute sighting adjustment (if necessary) and fire in less than a second and VERY seldom miss and I'm not that good a shot.

Practice, practice, practice.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Lasers are just like repeaters, and semi-autos. If you have more then one shot you will get lazy and waste ammunition. Forty years ago semi-autos where some new thing that could not be trusted real police officers carried revolvers. Oh and looking down the tube of a high powered scope the cross hairs will bounce around if you do not hold it real still.

This is a little like when auto focus lens for cameras first came out, a lot of photographers said they did not see a need for them and they could do a better job themselves and at that time they might have been able to. Well a little over 20 years later almost anybody that still says that is full of themselves, only 1 in maybe 10,000 people could focus as fast or as well as a high end Canon or Nikon lens.

I am not saying lasers will replace traditional sights but I bet in 20 years they will be standard on over half of all handgun sold. The reason not more police officers use them is because it has only been in the last couple of years that good lasers have been on the market and I am willing to bet in the next few years you will see more and more of them on law enforcements guns.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Geronimo45
A laser won't be a lot of help to somebody who's a rotten shot. A custom Dan Wesson 1911 won't, either. They need to learn to shoot accurately with irons - how to keep all shots on target, etc. Once that's done, a laser will help. Otherwise a laser will just let you know what wall you'll probably hit.

M2Carbine - you don't shoot that hostage-taking-sunglasses-man target in your house, do ya?

No, I took him out side to shoot him.
I only used that hostage target because it was handy. All my other BG targets are up the shooting range.
But then I thought, I wonder if I can shoot him, using the shotgun laser, so I tried.
You know that's something that you wouldn't want to be faced with in real life.

 

[51Cards]

You can't chase the dot. Common error when people star using them. They are GREAT for getting rid of flinches, and speeding up time-to-target.

At 20', my SIg 229 generally puts 10 in a 3" bull, rapid fire. I've never timed it, but the other guys get a kick out of it. Once they tried it and got over the "dot obsession," they thought it was like cheating.

Which is a good thing. If I ever need it, I'd like to have every "cheat" in the book.

I had a "Christmas choice" between a LaserMax for my XD/SC, or a Kimber .22 conversion for my 1911s. I took the Kimber, but it was a tough one.

BTW --- tritium sights + Lasermax = lethal stealth radar. No telltale, until you're ready.

 

[Geronimo45]

"No, I took him out side to shoot him."
Just making sure that the OP's premise that lasers were dangerous wasn't true - that the laser's didn't make you shoot your house up.

 

[gwine]

My cats, however, appreciate the laser.

And dogs, too.

Question: Has anyone used a laser pointer just by itself to try to improve the steadiness of their hands? I would think that because the laser is much lighter than a gun it would not matter much, but maybe it is all in learning to control your hand(s) in mid-air.

Caution: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

 

[Soybomb]

Question: Has anyone used a laser pointer just by itself to try to improve the steadiness of their hands? I would think that because the laser is much lighter than a gun it would not matter much, but maybe it is all in learning to control your hand(s) in mid-air.

I know a couple pretty good shooters that use the laser for dry fire practice to watch movement.

 

[CornCod]

I have nothing against lasers per se, my problem is that people are using too much junk, toys and doo-dads on thier weapons before they learn to shoot properly. The same thing goes for high-powered telescopic sights as an excuse not to do proper target practice with the fundamentals. Every time I go to the range, all I see are people "fussin n' cussin" over their glass when they should be getting proper target practice. I guess if the Red Chinese ever invade central Arkansas and these guys bump their scopes on a tree limb, then I suppose they ought to just surrender.

 

[another okie]

"If it is too dark to see your iron sights, how do you know what you are shooting at?"

The same objection would apply to night sights.

Example: You are in a dark room. Standing in the lit hallway outside the room is someone trying to kill you.


I have a laser on my snubbie for emergency use - not able to raise the gun, weak hand, shooting around cover.

I tried one on my Glock and didn't care for it.
Laser + light = too many buttons to push.
To me the whole idea of the Glock is simplicity.

 

[Geno]

A laser is a laser, is a laser? No.

For me, the quality of fit makes the greatest difference for externally applied lasers. I have a M6 that I use religiously on two my HD pistols: G19C and Warrior. I can not use it on my G17. This M6 fits so loosely to my G17 that the point of impact shifts, from one shot to the next, by as much as 6 inches at a mere 10 yards! Yikes! Can you say worthless? However, on my G19C and on my Warrior, I have to wrestle with the light to remove it.

I have also used the internal lasers, but have noted that they do not fit the Warrior due to the light rail. So, I put it into my Colt Series 70 reproduction. It worked great for accuracy, and repeated accuracy. However, who wants to stand there switching on the laser as bullets fly by? Hello?! I returned it the store.

I have noted that several people who attended various Advanced Tactical classes with me have used the laser grips. One gentleman was having particular difficulty keeping his shots on the target at a mere 10 yards. During a break, he purchased some laser grips, had them installed. He started using them after the break. Let me tell you, as a witness to the change in his accuracy, I was impressed with the grip lasers!

They come on automatically, stay on, and the point of impact did not shift. Were they "accurate"? Let me simply indicate that he hit his target in the kill zone every shot, all night...at 21 yards!!! He was not the world's greatest shot as can be noted from the reason for purchasing them. Refer back to my previous comments about his 10 yard, no-laser inaccuracy that compelled him to purchaser the grips. The laser grips did for fact get him on target, and kept him on target.

By the way, he was shooting a Colt series 70 reproduction. His intent was not so much for CCW use, but rather for in-home use.

At present, I would like to purchase a new laser, and when I do, it will probably be the grip style. But, for my likes, the companies are financially fornicating people under the guise of supply-and-demand. I have noted the laser grip prices dropping a bit, but frankly, at this point, I do not demand them and so they can not extort such prices out of me. So, I am sure the prices will continue to fall, and when they reach a reasonable level, then I will purchase a set.

Doc2005

 

[M2 Carbine]

gwine

Question: Has anyone used a laser pointer just by itself to try to improve the steadiness of their hands? I would think that because the laser is much lighter than a gun it would not matter much, but maybe it is all in learning to control your hand(s) in mid-air.

If you mean just holding the laser and pointing it, No but I sometimes do that with the laser on the gun.

One thing I do practice is bring the gun on target anywhere from about belt height to just below eye level, then lighting the laser to see how far off target I am. Ideally every time I light the laser the dot the gun would be pointed exactly where I want to be on the target.

The idea being that it is already a shoot situation and I want to get on target and fire as soon as possible with as little time adjusting on the target as possible.
So it's point the gun, light the laser, adjust on target if necessary and squeeze the trigger, one continuous fast motion.
At least that's what I try for.


Like 51Cards said, you don't chase the dot.
A friend was watching me shoot one day and he said, You aren't looking at the laser.
I wasn't really paying attention to what I was doing. I asked what he meant.
He said, You are keeping your eyes on the target and when you light the laser you don't take your eyes off the target.

Sometimes it helps to have someone watching you shoot. In this case I was doing the right thing without realizing it.
Keep your eyes on the target. You will automatically move the dot to where you are looking.
It's hard to do at first because you want to look at the dot as you adjust it.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Doc2005
I have noted that several people who attended various Advanced Tactical classes with me have used the laser grips. One gentleman was having particular difficulty keeping his shots on the target at a mere 10 yards. During a break, he purchased some laser grips, had them installed. He started using them after the break. Let me tell you, as a witness to the change in his accuracy, I was impressed with the grip lasers!

The laser can be particularly good for people up in age that have trouble quickly focusing on the sights anymore.
Personally, I'm 68 and wear tri focal eyeglasses. The center lens being my shooting and computer lens.
It's very difficult to QUICKLY line up the iron sights, lens and target, especially at night with night sights.
But using the laser it's easy to make fast accurate shots.

One day I tried shooting without wearing my glasses.

 

[sturmruger]

I own a S&W 637 which is a very small light weight J Frame pistol. I struggled early on with being able to shoot it well in low light situations. It was just too hard to see the front sight. I finally spent the money and puchased a set of CT Grips for it. I placed the red dot just a little bit over the front sight at 10 yards, and now I can shoot it perfectly in no light conditions. During daylight I would shoot and rely on the iron sights but at night the CT laser has proven invaluable for being able to hit my target consistently.

For my home defense gun I purchased one of the M6X laser light combo units. Again it was almost as much as the gun I have it mounted on (XD40), but still worth the money if it means I will be better able to hit my target.

 

[wooderson]

And dogs, too.

Ha, I wish - my beagle just doesn't care. Seems like anything he can't smell doesn't exist.