Lasers: dangerous toys?

[CountGlockula]

My pet peeve would be that the laser follows unsteady hands.

I need to practice more shooting and accuracy before I put anything on my Glock.

...looks cool huh?

 

[marzen]

I saw this guy at the range shooting like a mad man with a lazer sight on his gun. Then later in time, he was shooting without laser and he could not hit anything close to the target at 20feet away.

It seemed to me, it would take away the fun of target shooting when all you are doing is pointing laser and shoot.

 

[M2 Carbine]

marzen
It seemed to me, it would take away the fun of target shooting when all you are doing is pointing laser and shoot.

Believe me it ain't always that easy.
I've seen some pretty good pistol shots that do very poorly the first few times they try the laser.
Whether you are aligning iron sights or lining up a Red dot on the target you still have to use proper shooting technique and control.


All this laser talk made me want to break them out, so this evening just before dark I got in some fun practice with a Green laser equipped Kel Tec PLR .223 pistol and a 38 S&W 2 inch J Frame.

I shot about 60 rounds from the hip through the PLR from 17 to 26 yards. One of the steel swinging targets is about 3 1/2 inches in diameter. I missed it twice, which surprised me. That calls for some more practice.


The J Frame has a Crimson Trace laser grip. Shot about 60-70 rounds.
Shot at 10-12 yards holding the gun at belt level, one handed single and double action.
Fast double action the 38 was getting all the shots in the body of my 8x11 inch silhouette targets. Then I tried single action head shots and all the shots were good.

Finally I finished up about 20 rounds at a 5 inch steel swinging target from 25 yards, holding the gun out two handed, just below eye level.
Didn't miss a shot with the 38 so I redeemed myself a little.

Started to drizzle, so I had to quit before it was totally dark.

Some fun.

 

[51Cards]

Getting older, the distance from eye to front sight vs distance from front sight to target has taken its toll! Like the Red Dot, the laser places POA in the plane of the target;unlike the Red Dot, you can co-witness with the iron sights.

It's important to switch shooting styles during sessions. 1) You don't want to ever become life-dependent on a battery; 2) your framing reference is different; 3) your depth-of-field may very well be locked on the target, in full flight-or-fight mode; 4) you can target without the bore being on the same line as the the line-of-sight --- you can duck-and-cover, and still deliver accurate fire. 5) Fired from any sort of rest (car roof, tabletop, piano), fire is uncannily accurate. It goes on.

I find my stance "opens up" a bit, and I have a sight picture closer to waist level, and rising. First shots fired with the iron sightline well below eye level, continuing the shot sequence by deliberately looking well over the sights, but with the sights peripherally available. In other words, I "disengage" from the iron sights while the laser is lit.

Then, mid-mag, the laser goes off. If you practice it that way, and maintain good hits, you've discovered that you've gotten a range-to-target and sight picture nailed, even if the little red dot goes out.

Speed, accuracy, flexibility.

Not a substitute for using iron sights; but a very good accessory, even if only used for "flinch" and "wobble" training.

 

[Medusa]

I know Suarez says that the laser is only good if it's IR laser and YOU have a NVG set. Otherwise it could lead to bad habits, like not getting proper sight picture, or even getting to point the gun at the intended spot, instead the shooter would try to "move the dot to target, costing valuable time".

I can agree with it as the laser isn't a substitute to proper aim. The laser is very handy if the shooter has good developed muscle memory, ie when raising the gun to shooting stance the gun (either on the eye-level, or contact ready position) is already at least roughly pointed at the intended target (so when you shoot the target will be hit), laser being the final aid in low-light conditions.

I'd like a Crimson Trace on my CZ75 for example, since it offers "activate the laser by grip" option, and master switch, thus making the laser activation a simple operation of just gripping the gun.

 

[hemiram]

And dogs too..

I got one of the $5 buck lasers for my mom to run her cat run run around, and it works good for that, but one day I brought it home and decided to try it out on my dogs.. This is the male, King doing what he normally does when I try to get him inside, and he isn't ready to come in yet:

He is very agressive towards birds and squirellls, etc, and my other dog, Molly is very prey driven and anything in the yard with 4 legs is attacked, and if it's a possum, rabbit, Raccoon, groundhog, or skunk, it's probably going to die in less than 30 seconds. She has the technique down now, and it looks like those nature shows where a lion grabs the prey by the neck, and they tumble over and over, and it ends up where the lion has a death grip on the other animal's throat. They both watch my new LCD TV much more than the old tube one.

I showed it to Molly first, and she ran up to it, sniffed it, and walked away. No reaction at all after that, except to sigh if I started moving it past her. So I bring King in, who totally destroyed a cheap radio controlled car I won as a prize last year, and got even less out of him. He looked at the dot, sniffed, and looked at me. Nothing else. Mom's cat can't resist it though!

 

[Cacique500]

A laser on a handgun is just another tool, just like tritium sights. Don't expect to just slap a laser on and start hitting bullseyes every time. Like anything, they require a little training to use them properly. Once you're familiar with them however, there's a night and day difference in speed an accuracy.

As far as the "experts" saying you don't need a laser - bah. Think about it - if you're involved in a gunfight, are you going to be standing there in a perfect weaver stance lining up the three little dots while taking return fire? Doubt it - shooting while running, seeking & shooting from cover, single handed shooting, etc...all not conducive to a perfect sight picture - and that's where the laser really comes into its own.

On a home defense gun, the light/laser rail mount can be used pretty well - however, for a carry gun, the rail mounts leave a lot to be desired (think holster issues). Grip lasers or internal lasers are better for a carry gun, and specifically the grip lasers since those come on automatically when you grip the gun - no buttons to push, switches to screw with etc.

Also keep in mind that just because you're 25 years old with perfect eyesight and go to the range 5 days a week, not all people can shoot as well as you do. Many older shooters with bi-focals/tri-focals need the laser - because 'older' eyes won't work as well on all three focal planes. Folks that don't go to the range very often also benefit from the laser - by having the confidence of knowing that you put the red dot on the target and you'll hit what you're aiming at (my wife is a perfect example of this). The third major group that will benefit from a laser are serious self defense folks - people who shoot and practice frequently...and again I'm talking about having an extra 'tool' in the toolbox.

Most armed encounters happen in low light at close distances...remember the 21 foot rule here. If you haven't tried a 'knife attack simulation' at this distance you'll be amazed at how fast somebody can get to you - usually well before you can clear your holster and bring your firearm up to bear. The laser allows you to draw, point, and fire without a traditional sight picture.

Another huge benefit of the laser is that everybody, and I mean everybody, knows what the little red dot on their chest means (Hollywood actually did something right for a change!). It's called a non-lethal deterrant and most bad guys will turn tail when they see the little red dot - without you having to fire a shot. In non-castle doctrine / mandatory retreat states this is a huge plus.

Bottom line is modern handgun lasers are effective tools that help shooters place their bullet on target faster and with greater accuracy. Many large LE departments are now using lasers on their duty and backup weapons, and the military is currently using lasers in the sandbox to great effect.

If you still have doubts, go to your local range and rent a handgun with a laser on it...you'll see the difference it makes.

 

[blood_donor]

I wanted to say something about the "scary red dot" theory.

In my opinion, and I admit that I am just a guy in his pajamas in the basement, is that this holds even less water than the "sound of the 12 ga pump being racked" theory.

You can't see a laser unless a) it is foggy/smoky or b) you know where to look. That's the whole reason that lasers work: they are narrow beams of light.

So if a bad guy is in front of you, chances are he is looking at you, maybe at your gun if he can see it.

I don't see how he would know to look down at his chest, unless you have a pretty crummy laser, or it was foggy/smoky.