Law question

[isp2605]

So, to me, the bottom line is that Scorpion meets the buyer at a gun store in Illinois, where the 4473 stuff gets done.

Art,
You are correct in your understanding.
What the NavyLT doesn't understand is that without 65/3 then such transactions would require FFL to FFL. The ATF bulletin is clear. It states that "if" a state grants contiguous sales then such sales applies to other states. ATF is clear in it states "IF" such happens. Without the "IF" happening then such transactions would require FFL to FFL. But since IL has the statute granting contiguous sales then the "IF" part is met and it only requires the interstate sales to be made at the one FFL. If IL did not have the 65/3 then the "IF" part of the ATF bulletin would not have been met and therefore the transaction would have to be handled FFL to FFL. That's why we put 65/3 in place was specifically the result of the WSRC opening and guys coming into IL to shoot weren't able to comply with the ATF requirements. Once we got 65/3 in place then IL met the "IF" part described in the bulletin. That's why 65/3 is not "null and void". Without 65/3 people coming to WSRC could not buy guns and ammo at the trap nationals because of the ATF ruling concerning the "IF".

 

[NukemJim]

Somewhat off topic

and they may buy ammunition in just about any state as well.

I have been told by 3 different gun store clerks in Indiana that if I am a Illinois Resident then I must show my FOID when buying ammo n Indiana.

When I questioned how one state can make a law to take effect in another state all three clerks professed ignorance but were adamant that these were the rules of the store due to laws of Illinois.

I have no idea.

Does Illinois Law require a FOID for an out of state purchase?

Never made any sense to me but I sure do not know onw way or another.

NukemJim

 

[NavyLCDR]

And what ISP2605 fails to understand is that the August, 2004 bulletin was issued because of confusion over those state laws. Many FFLs were understanding the old permissive laws that were required prior to 1986 which granted permission for contiguous states sales to limit those sales to contiguous states. What the bulletin is saying is that IF those laws exist, as long as those laws do not specifically prohibit anything, then out of state sales are legal in states beyond the contiguous states listed in those laws.

Since the 1986 amendment to the Federal laws, permissive state laws are no longer required, however, some of the old permissive state laws still exist and IF those laws do exist, they do not limit out of state sales to contiguous states.

FFL Newsetters and Bulletins do not contain any requirements. What they contain are clarifications to existing statutes and permissive state laws for out of state long gun sales by FFLs are no longer required by Federal statutes.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I have been told by 3 different gun store clerks in Indiana that if I am a Illinois Resident then I must show my FOID when buying ammo n Indiana.

When I questioned how one state can make a law to take effect in another state all three clerks professed ignorance but were adamant that these were the rules of the store due to laws of Illinois.

I have no idea.

Does Illinois Law require a FOID for an out of state purchase?

Never made any sense to me but I sure do not know onw way or another.

NukemJim

1. Illinois statutes cannot reach beyond Illinois state lines. Because of that, an Illinois resident may purchase ammunition, in person, from an outside Illinois source without showing an Illinois FOID.

2. The statute the Indiana dealers are referring to is 430 ILCS 65/3 (b‑5):
Any resident may purchase ammunition from a person outside of Illinois. Any resident purchasing ammunition outside the State of Illinois must provide the seller with a copy of his or her valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card and either his or her Illinois driver's license or Illinois State Identification Card prior to the shipment of the ammunition. The ammunition may be shipped only to an address on either of those 2 documents.

3. Clearly the statute is limited to mail order/internet sales where the ammo is shipped to a resident of Illinois with an address in Illinois because shipping of the ammo is specifically mentioned in the statute and because state statutes cannot reach outside that state's borders.

Another example would be the California 10-round capacity magazine limit. It is illegal for a California resident to possess a "high capacity" in California. However, since state statutes cannot reach outside state borders, a California resident may purchase a "high capacity" magazine off the shelf in a state outside California, and may possess and use that magazine outside California and there is nothing California can do about it until that magazine is possessed inside California.

 

[isp2605]

I do understand the purpose of 65/3. You do not understand the statute and why it had to be implemented which was done in 2005. It's not difficult to understand, for most people, but obviously for you it is.
Here we go again, for the last time. It's explained right in the bulletin you referenced. ATF stated that if a state permits congiuous state purchases then such applies nationwide. Note the word "if". Prior to 2005 IL did not grant such contiguous purchases. Therefore IL did not meet the "if" part of the statement which means the rest of their statement did not apply because IL did not allow contiguous sales. Without 65/3 IL did not grant contiguous state purchase therefore IL did not meet the ATF requirement of granting such action. Without 65/3 in place a person could not purchase in contiguous states and therefore, by the ATF's rules, could also not puchase in the other states. In 2005, after the ATF's ruling in the bulletin you referenced, and when IL was getting the national trapshooters coming to IL, ATF notified DNR people from out of state could not make purchases in IL because IL had no statute authorizing contiguous purchases. IL was at risk of not getting the national trapshooters moving from Vandalia, OH to IL unless IL did pass something to grant contiguous purchases which then allowed the state to comply with interstate purchases.
Give it up. You clearly know nothing of which you speak concerning IL law or the hows and whys certain statutes have to be in place so to comply with certain fed regs. I was part of working on that bill. My friend who was the attorney at ILDNR wrote it. He workd closely with the ATF, the USA, and the IL AG to compose the bill so it would comply with the ATF ruling because of the opening of the WSRC. Without 65/3 being in place, which as a reminder was written after the ATF's ruling, contiguous purchases were not authorized by IL statute and therefore did not comply with ATF's ruling.

I have been told by 3 different gun store clerks in Indiana that if I am a Illinois Resident then I must show my FOID when buying ammo n Indiana.
When I questioned how one state can make a law to take effect in another state all three clerks professed ignorance but were adamant that these were the rules of the store due to laws of Illinois.

(b-3) is intended to apply to mail orders. Remember you're dealing with low paying clerks who have no legal knowledge and are just doing what their bosses tell them. Their bosses also have no legal knowledge and are often operating on a lack of understanding of the law or their company doesn't want to aggravate with it. There are some businesses who won't ship ammo to IL because of (b-3). It's not that they can't, it's that they don't want to mess with the paperwork.