Lawrence Rod & Gun Club - BEWARE!
- Thread starter otasan
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I can understand why you would be upset with the gun club for screwing with you the way they did when you were winning hands down. That was not right, not at all right. It was, as I see it, also a bit ridiculous for them to later change the rules to allow handicapping.
I agree, it was also bad practice to allow someone to leave a firearm containing a loaded mag on the bench when others went downrange. Now I have a question to ask, what exactly did you mean by this:
All the best,
Glenn B
I agree, it was also bad practice to allow someone to leave a firearm containing a loaded mag on the bench when others went downrange. Now I have a question to ask, what exactly did you mean by this:
Please especially explain the last sentence. Are you saying you handled that firearm while others were downrange?
All the best,
Glenn B
Psssniper,
What is it you think they are doing? Are they doing something that is not safe? Maybe you should look again. I took a close look at that pic. I blew it up to 200% and 400% its normal size and, I cannot see them doing anything of concern. Is there something to be concerened about? Maybe I missed something.
By the way why are the other 4 guys stooges? While I sort of wondered what they were doing, I cannot see them as stooges at this point. I see them as posing for a picture - does that make them stooges? I note that from left to right, 1, 3, and 4 have the slide back on their guns and I cannot tell on 2. Not one of them seems to be effected by recoil, no shell casings flying through the air that I can see, no muzzle flash, no smoke. So maybe they opened the slides to make it a safer photo shoot or, maybe the three of them fired at precisely the same time and their pistols' slides went back at the exact same rate and recoil has not yet effected the men although it did make the slides go back (is that possible). As for the #2 man, I think he has a 22 semi-auto where you cannot as easily see if the slide is back (note the seemingly smaller muzzle opening than the other guns and the different style of pistol or is it a revolver).
All the best,
Glenn B
What is it you think they are doing? Are they doing something that is not safe? Maybe you should look again. I took a close look at that pic. I blew it up to 200% and 400% its normal size and, I cannot see them doing anything of concern. Is there something to be concerened about? Maybe I missed something.
By the way why are the other 4 guys stooges? While I sort of wondered what they were doing, I cannot see them as stooges at this point. I see them as posing for a picture - does that make them stooges? I note that from left to right, 1, 3, and 4 have the slide back on their guns and I cannot tell on 2. Not one of them seems to be effected by recoil, no shell casings flying through the air that I can see, no muzzle flash, no smoke. So maybe they opened the slides to make it a safer photo shoot or, maybe the three of them fired at precisely the same time and their pistols' slides went back at the exact same rate and recoil has not yet effected the men although it did make the slides go back (is that possible). As for the #2 man, I think he has a 22 semi-auto where you cannot as easily see if the slide is back (note the seemingly smaller muzzle opening than the other guns and the different style of pistol or is it a revolver).
All the best,
Glenn B
I DID NOT touch his pistol until used my forefinger only to carefully depress the exposed magazine release. A magazine with at least one round of .45ACP hardball slid out.
Here is the likely scenario had I not ejected the magazine: negligent shooter picks up pistol while pinsetters are downrange, closes slide, pulls trigger prior to holstering. Bang! Several surprised pinsetters, maybe one wounded or dead pinsetter.
The bottom line is that the range safety officer did not personally examine the two handguns just used on the firing line to MAKE SURE that they were unloaded prior to calling the line "safe."
In four decades of competition shooting I had never seen such negligent gun safety procedures.
I have had other very scary situations at the Chester Rod & Gun Club. Once a shooter swept the spectators with a Condition Zero M1911A1 .45 ACP pistol. Many other times shooters broke 180 while unloading their pistols. One very memorable time a shooter came up to the firing line with a .44 Magnum revolver with its cylinder closed. I was the RSO, so I asked him to open the cylinder. He did, and it was loaded with the shiniest, nastiest JHP rounds. In all of the above CF&GC examples, it was just shooter negligence.
In the case of the Lawrence Rod & Gun Club on 16April2005, it was CLUB negligence. No eye protection required? No double-checking of firearms? At a pin match? Outrageous.
I'll echo the comment about Chester Rod & Gun.
I've had a couple of scary incidents there and didn't renew my membership, though mostly it was because the club was really run for the benifit of the bowhunters and sporting clays crowd who had no issue regularly shutting the whole place down to run their competitions.
I've had a couple of scary incidents there and didn't renew my membership, though mostly it was because the club was really run for the benifit of the bowhunters and sporting clays crowd who had no issue regularly shutting the whole place down to run their competitions.
I believe you had good intent to by hitting the mag release on said pistol but, that certainly was far from the best/safest choice of action. Other choices could have done better while at the same time not resulted in what you call the probable scenario as quoted above.
Don't get me wrong, I believe their range safety as you described seems extremely negligent but, I cannot condone anyone handling a firearm (especially one with bullets anywhere in it) while shooters are further downrange either. I understand why you did it, but it could have been done much more safely than handling that pistol while others were downrange. It would have been much better to stand by watching the pistol and ask someone to call the rangemaster over to you, or in a loud voice to call for the rangemaster yourself. No people would not like that, but tough cookies if they got embarassed. Or it would have been fairly good to wait until everyone was behind the line and then inform the shooter he had forgotten a round in the gun - and yes of course if he had returned to the line first you could have told him about it and then strongly suggested he wait until everyone else was behind the line before he handled it. Yeah they sound outrageous at that gun club but, them being outrageous does not make your handling of a gun behind other shooters a good or safe thing to have done even when your intent was correct. I have seen too many accidents at the range over the years to ever touch a gun like that with folks downrange.
All the best,
Glenn B
Did You Fully Understand My Last Post? Apparently NOT
I DID NOT PICK UP AND HANDLE THE PISTOL. IT WAS LAYING THERE ON ITS LEFT SIDE, BUTT END UP, WITH THE OVERSIZED MAG RELEASE HANGING WAY OUT THERE. THE ONLY PART OF MY BODY THAT TOUCHED THE PISTOL WAS THE TIP OF MY FOREFINGER. THE ONLY PART OF THE SAID PISTOL TOUCHED WAS THE OVERSIZE MAGAZINE RELEASE BUTTON. I DID NOT pick the pistol up and "handle it." I only noticed that the magazine was in there, and I was surprised as anyone to see live cartridges (NOT "bullets") in the magazine as it slid out.
If I had not intervened, the negligent gun owner would have definitely picked the pistol up and handled it after he retrieved his brass. There was an excellent chance that he would have closed the slide and pulled the trigger.
This likely scenario was avoided with one tiny little touch, rather than a calling attention to an inserted magazine that could have been (and should have been) empty. I was a guest there, and I was ruffling enough of their feathers by whipping each and every one of them at the firing line. The lack of eye protection alone was unbelievable. :banghead:
I DID NOT PICK UP AND HANDLE THE PISTOL. IT WAS LAYING THERE ON ITS LEFT SIDE, BUTT END UP, WITH THE OVERSIZED MAG RELEASE HANGING WAY OUT THERE. THE ONLY PART OF MY BODY THAT TOUCHED THE PISTOL WAS THE TIP OF MY FOREFINGER. THE ONLY PART OF THE SAID PISTOL TOUCHED WAS THE OVERSIZE MAGAZINE RELEASE BUTTON. I DID NOT pick the pistol up and "handle it." I only noticed that the magazine was in there, and I was surprised as anyone to see live cartridges (NOT "bullets") in the magazine as it slid out.
If I had not intervened, the negligent gun owner would have definitely picked the pistol up and handled it after he retrieved his brass. There was an excellent chance that he would have closed the slide and pulled the trigger.
This likely scenario was avoided with one tiny little touch, rather than a calling attention to an inserted magazine that could have been (and should have been) empty. I was a guest there, and I was ruffling enough of their feathers by whipping each and every one of them at the firing line. The lack of eye protection alone was unbelievable. :banghead:
Would it have pleased you better had I said you fingered it? Would it have pleased you better had I said live cartridges instead of bullets, even though a live cartridge could be a blank? Yet, somehow I suppose you meant that cartridge had a bullet making up part of it, and chances are you saw the bullet more than any other part of the cartridge. You seem to be playing words games here while discussing what I ahd thought was a pretty serious subject! I was and am not playing word games here.
I was writing about range safety plain and simple. You touched it and operated it with a finger (part of your hand) - that is perfectly clear. That such an act was unsafe, while others were downrange, is also perfectly clear as I see it. I tried to say it nicely once, now I will say it as bluntly as I can - you were, in my opinion based upon 13 - 14 years of having been a frearms instructor, unsafe behind other shooters when you operated that firearm in any manner whatsoever. That is regardless of your intent. If you don't like it then, learn really safe range safety. You do not handle or operate firearms, you do not even finger them, while behind other shooters who are downrange!
Your assumptions about the predicted likely doom and gloom scenario what would have happened, had you not touched the firearm, are just that assumptions. Had you not touched it, and had you actually done what would have been safer, it still would have been intervention on your part - just much safer intervention. I could make up some assumptions about what could have happened had that firearm been in unsafe mechanical condition because the owner had done some home gunsmithing really screwing it up badly. Maybe he worked the slide release to make it extra sensitive, maybe he did a real bang up trigger job, or a job on the sear. Maybe it was a real hair trigger. Maybe if someone had pushed the mag release with the gun on the table the slide could have gone forward, and the gun could have fired pointing in whatever direction it was pointed. Maybe a lot of things but; I am not gong to guess about maybes right now. Rather I prefer to discuss what actually happened. What took place was not, in my opinion, safe on the gun owner's part nor on your part.
This is not something to get bent out of shape over, this is something to learn by. The lesson, just that there was a much safer way to have done it.
Sorry this seems to have offended you, but I call it as I see it because maybe someday it may save a life.
All the best,
Glenn B
I was writing about range safety plain and simple. You touched it and operated it with a finger (part of your hand) - that is perfectly clear. That such an act was unsafe, while others were downrange, is also perfectly clear as I see it. I tried to say it nicely once, now I will say it as bluntly as I can - you were, in my opinion based upon 13 - 14 years of having been a frearms instructor, unsafe behind other shooters when you operated that firearm in any manner whatsoever. That is regardless of your intent. If you don't like it then, learn really safe range safety. You do not handle or operate firearms, you do not even finger them, while behind other shooters who are downrange!
Your assumptions about the predicted likely doom and gloom scenario what would have happened, had you not touched the firearm, are just that assumptions. Had you not touched it, and had you actually done what would have been safer, it still would have been intervention on your part - just much safer intervention. I could make up some assumptions about what could have happened had that firearm been in unsafe mechanical condition because the owner had done some home gunsmithing really screwing it up badly. Maybe he worked the slide release to make it extra sensitive, maybe he did a real bang up trigger job, or a job on the sear. Maybe it was a real hair trigger. Maybe if someone had pushed the mag release with the gun on the table the slide could have gone forward, and the gun could have fired pointing in whatever direction it was pointed. Maybe a lot of things but; I am not gong to guess about maybes right now. Rather I prefer to discuss what actually happened. What took place was not, in my opinion, safe on the gun owner's part nor on your part.
This is not something to get bent out of shape over, this is something to learn by. The lesson, just that there was a much safer way to have done it.
Sorry this seems to have offended you, but I call it as I see it because maybe someday it may save a life.
All the best,
Glenn B
:banghead: Better for the shooter to actually pick up the loaded pistol, which he would have done after retrieving his brass. Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Like I said before, I thought that the magazine was unloaded. It was darned lucky that I came along and did what I did. I did not pick up the pistol, close the slide and pull the trigger. This is what the shooter would have VERY LIKELY done. I WAS THERE. :banghead:
otasan,
Would this have been better than what you did:
You keep watch on the pistol, and notify the rangemaster or shooter of its condition. They in turn have everyone downrange return to behind the weapon with the ammunition in the magazine. Now that all are behind the firearm the rangemaster checks to see everyone is safe. The rangemaster either takes the firearm and safely unloads it himself or; he gives the commands for the shooter to pick up the firearm pointing it downrange, then to safely unload it, then to holster it or place it on the bench. Yes, in my opinion, this would have been safer than what you had done as I see it. I did not think I had to spell it out as completely as this for an expereinced firearms enthusiast such as you. This by the way is likely how it would have been done too.
I am begining to see a light here. Things pissed you off at the shoot. You for whatever reason, fair or unfair, did not win the money. You fingered a gun with people downrange (and I almost bet someone there said something to you about that). You got pissed and bad mouthed them. They could be as terrible with gun safety as you claim. Maybe they have the most terrible gun safety habits of all time at that gun club BUT: Someone else posted a pic in this thread from that club's site. I think it was posted to make them look bad because it appeared at first glance as if there were 4 shooters downrange with another guy holding a firearm behind them. Yet upon closer examination the pic seems to show that the guys from the club, at least the four men referred to in this thread as the '4 stooges' are probably a safety minded bunch of men who had the slides locked back when the picture was taken. That other guy behind them, his hands look pretty empty when you look closer.
Now you also try to turn around the point I am making by making seemingly ludicrous statements. You did not handle it you say, you only operated the magazine release with a finger! It was not a bullet you saw but a cartridge! You are trying to defelct my point with rhetoric. Furthermore, from your last post, if you think I meant the shooter should have picked up his gun with others downrange, or without supervision from the rangemaster, then I suspect you know or practice less about gun safety than you let on. That weapon should never have been handled with people downrange, not by you or anyone! Nor should it have been handled without the supervision of the rangemaster or an instructor. Need someone explain every facet of how that gun should have been unloaded to make it seem as if there was actually a better thing to have done than what you actually did?
You said you were made to feel unwelcome at their event, yet you also said you did nothing to deserve such. I make no excuses for anything they really did wrong. Yet, I wonder, regardless of their own guy being unsafe, was your being unsafe with that firearm, and then your attitude, what really set them off on you and then what set you off on them? I am beginning to wonder.
Best regards,
Glenn B
Would this have been better than what you did:
You keep watch on the pistol, and notify the rangemaster or shooter of its condition. They in turn have everyone downrange return to behind the weapon with the ammunition in the magazine. Now that all are behind the firearm the rangemaster checks to see everyone is safe. The rangemaster either takes the firearm and safely unloads it himself or; he gives the commands for the shooter to pick up the firearm pointing it downrange, then to safely unload it, then to holster it or place it on the bench. Yes, in my opinion, this would have been safer than what you had done as I see it. I did not think I had to spell it out as completely as this for an expereinced firearms enthusiast such as you. This by the way is likely how it would have been done too.
I am begining to see a light here. Things pissed you off at the shoot. You for whatever reason, fair or unfair, did not win the money. You fingered a gun with people downrange (and I almost bet someone there said something to you about that). You got pissed and bad mouthed them. They could be as terrible with gun safety as you claim. Maybe they have the most terrible gun safety habits of all time at that gun club BUT: Someone else posted a pic in this thread from that club's site. I think it was posted to make them look bad because it appeared at first glance as if there were 4 shooters downrange with another guy holding a firearm behind them. Yet upon closer examination the pic seems to show that the guys from the club, at least the four men referred to in this thread as the '4 stooges' are probably a safety minded bunch of men who had the slides locked back when the picture was taken. That other guy behind them, his hands look pretty empty when you look closer.
Now you also try to turn around the point I am making by making seemingly ludicrous statements. You did not handle it you say, you only operated the magazine release with a finger! It was not a bullet you saw but a cartridge! You are trying to defelct my point with rhetoric. Furthermore, from your last post, if you think I meant the shooter should have picked up his gun with others downrange, or without supervision from the rangemaster, then I suspect you know or practice less about gun safety than you let on. That weapon should never have been handled with people downrange, not by you or anyone! Nor should it have been handled without the supervision of the rangemaster or an instructor. Need someone explain every facet of how that gun should have been unloaded to make it seem as if there was actually a better thing to have done than what you actually did?
You said you were made to feel unwelcome at their event, yet you also said you did nothing to deserve such. I make no excuses for anything they really did wrong. Yet, I wonder, regardless of their own guy being unsafe, was your being unsafe with that firearm, and then your attitude, what really set them off on you and then what set you off on them? I am beginning to wonder.
Best regards,
Glenn B
Wow
:banghead:
You don't get it at all. I was there.
I did not say anything to anyone about the loaded pistol. No one saw me touch the magazine release. Shooters (except me) all morning were handling their handguns on the firing line while pinsetters were down range, and the RSO had no problem with it.
In my mind, a pistol with a magazine in it is loaded, so I was just removing the "empty" magazine. I didn't know that it was loaded until it slid out. I am absolutely certain that I prevented a near tragedy by doing what I did.
I was friendly, courteous, and safe. I wasn't angry at anyone at all. I don't drive 100 miles to an unknown pin match to cause trouble. So calling for an safety emergency because I saw a fully-inserted (empty?) magazine left in a pistol was uncalled for.
I WON every time I shot, except when they limited me to three cartridges during the two-man team event. My partner fired his six shots and hit only the backstop.
So, no, I wasn't angry about anything. It was a pure case of xenophobia and extremely poor gun safety practices.
It is worth forgetting!
I won't go back there, and I can't recommend it to anyone.
:banghead:
You don't get it at all. I was there.
I did not say anything to anyone about the loaded pistol. No one saw me touch the magazine release. Shooters (except me) all morning were handling their handguns on the firing line while pinsetters were down range, and the RSO had no problem with it.
In my mind, a pistol with a magazine in it is loaded, so I was just removing the "empty" magazine. I didn't know that it was loaded until it slid out. I am absolutely certain that I prevented a near tragedy by doing what I did.
I was friendly, courteous, and safe. I wasn't angry at anyone at all. I don't drive 100 miles to an unknown pin match to cause trouble. So calling for an safety emergency because I saw a fully-inserted (empty?) magazine left in a pistol was uncalled for.
I WON every time I shot, except when they limited me to three cartridges during the two-man team event. My partner fired his six shots and hit only the backstop.
So, no, I wasn't angry about anything. It was a pure case of xenophobia and extremely poor gun safety practices.
It is worth forgetting!
I won't go back there, and I can't recommend it to anyone.
Igloodude
Member
Well, you've got me curious enough about it to at least go watch sometime soon. I've never shot in a pinshoot (in fact I've yet to get to my first IDPA or IPSC match) but I have been in Bullseye for a couple years and know a safe vs an unsafe range when I see it. Should I get to one of their matches you can be sure I'll report back here with my observations.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Otasan and Glenn Bartley, to your courners. I don't mind you disagreeing and even arguing range safety for the better good, but before anything gets nasty, I just want to warn everyone that they are still to adhere to the Forum Rules and persomal attacks and suck ilk will not be allowed. Keep your argument gentlemanly. 
Are You Accusing Me of Being Ungentlemanly?
Have you read my posts here? I am the one being attacked here for no good reason by a person who was not even at the event in question. If anyone should be muzzled, it is not me.
This match was one where the RSO allowed shooters to handle their handguns on the firing line while pinsetters were downrange, relying on a "good faith" declaration by the shooters that their guns were "clear".
I had already secured my pistol in a case, and I was walking by my opponent's table on the firing line when I noticed that his .45 ACP S&W Performance Center 1911 was laying there with its slide locked back and with a magazine fully inserted.
In my book, a pistol is "clear" when the magazine is removed, so I used my forefinger only touch the exposed magazine release button. This ejected the loaded(!) magazine out of the pistol.
I can guarantee that the shooter would have returned to the table (after picking up his brass) and picked up his loaded pistol. At that instant, he would have had a loaded pistol IN HIS HAND with folks downrange.
By simply pressing the mag button, I prevented a dangerous situation from happening. And now Bartley insists on picking my actions apart based on his hypotheses of what was going on in the hearts and minds of me and the RSO and the other shooters there at the Lawrence Rod & Gun Club on Saturday, 16April2005. This spectualtion is needeless, counterproductive, and borderline rude. On HIS part, NOT mine.
I was there. I saw and recognised the extremely dangerous safety practices there (no eye protection on the firing line, gun handling on the firing line with people downrange, no independent checking of handguns to make sure that they are clear and safe).
So, no, I am not "going to my corner."
I am right, Bartley is wrong. Period. I was there; I did what was right for the circumstances.
The point of this important thread was to warn safety-minded and fairness-minded shooters from attending a dangerous and xenophobic shooting match. The outrageous fact is that a loaded handgun was left on the firing line by a negligent shooter after the firing line was declared by the RSO to be "safe".
Enough, already! Lock the thread with this last post. :banghead:
Have you read my posts here? I am the one being attacked here for no good reason by a person who was not even at the event in question. If anyone should be muzzled, it is not me.
This match was one where the RSO allowed shooters to handle their handguns on the firing line while pinsetters were downrange, relying on a "good faith" declaration by the shooters that their guns were "clear".
I had already secured my pistol in a case, and I was walking by my opponent's table on the firing line when I noticed that his .45 ACP S&W Performance Center 1911 was laying there with its slide locked back and with a magazine fully inserted.
In my book, a pistol is "clear" when the magazine is removed, so I used my forefinger only touch the exposed magazine release button. This ejected the loaded(!) magazine out of the pistol.
I can guarantee that the shooter would have returned to the table (after picking up his brass) and picked up his loaded pistol. At that instant, he would have had a loaded pistol IN HIS HAND with folks downrange.
By simply pressing the mag button, I prevented a dangerous situation from happening. And now Bartley insists on picking my actions apart based on his hypotheses of what was going on in the hearts and minds of me and the RSO and the other shooters there at the Lawrence Rod & Gun Club on Saturday, 16April2005. This spectualtion is needeless, counterproductive, and borderline rude. On HIS part, NOT mine.
I was there. I saw and recognised the extremely dangerous safety practices there (no eye protection on the firing line, gun handling on the firing line with people downrange, no independent checking of handguns to make sure that they are clear and safe).
So, no, I am not "going to my corner."
I am right, Bartley is wrong. Period. I was there; I did what was right for the circumstances.
The point of this important thread was to warn safety-minded and fairness-minded shooters from attending a dangerous and xenophobic shooting match. The outrageous fact is that a loaded handgun was left on the firing line by a negligent shooter after the firing line was declared by the RSO to be "safe".
Enough, already! Lock the thread with this last post. :banghead:
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
otasan - indeed I think this thread has had its mileage and a good mileage at that! A salutary message - however folks choose to read it!!
Time to close and put to bed eh!
Time to close and put to bed eh!
- Status
