Lawyer Up - or - Who's In YOUR Wallet

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meef

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Here's an issue I'm very curious about. And I'm not making any judgements here or offering advice. I guess I'm mostly thinking out loud and want to see if it resonates.

Many/most of the people who come to this board own firearms. Most of them state that they would use their firearms in the defense of life, maybe even property. Many of them actually carry concealed firearms for that purpose.

There is a very worthwhile read in the March issue of Combat Handguns by Massad Ayoob regarding the potential consequences of using your firearm on another person.

My question is: To what depth have you personally considered those consequences? And what, if any, plans/steps have you taken to protect yourself after the fact? Are you prepared for what can happen after a shooting? If not, should you be carrying?

I know the old saw about "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six." Sounds really impressive, maybe even macho, until that time comes.

It appears to more the rule than the exception if you are involved in a justified shooting that the very least thing that will happen is you'll get hit very, very hard financially. At worst, you may well do considerable prison time - if you're lucky. Criminal and civil problems are both parts of the equation.

I call to mind the recent instance of a man (schoolteacher) who was hiking and attacked by a man who was walking a couple of dogs (who initally threatened the teacher). The attacker was shot, died and the teacher is now doing nine years I believe. Found guilty by a jury of his peers. This was the subject of a recent THR thread and was on.... Dateline?

I read and enjoy many of the SHTF threads that happen here. Highly entertaining. Isn't it more likely that you might use your CCW in "real" life than against the zombies, black helicopter soldiers, TEOTWAWKI hordes or whatever?

Have you ever had any formal training that would prepare you for the aftermath, not just the shooting? Who would you use for a lawyer?

Do you know what to say/not say in the aftermath of such a traumatic event?

Would you get the yellow pages out and let your fingers do the walking when choosing a lawyer. You might get a good divorce attorney, but can he handle a homicide charge?

I've heard it might be prudent to find out who the police use for defense in your area and get to know him. It wouldn't be cheap, but it seems that nothing after a shooting is.

I could ramble on.... I'd rather hear your thoughts.
 
It's best to do some looking ahead of time for an attorney who's had some experience in handling self-defense cases. Do some talking with him. Get some guesstimates about what the cost might be.

Art
 
I know some people who could likely recommend a lawyer. I need to set that up. I know it will be expensive, but some things you really have little choice in.
 
You can survive being judged by 12.

You don't survive being carried by 6. Unless you believe in the hereafter.

However, if it is not a good shoot, then you may end up wishing you were being carried by 6. The idea is to know when you can shoot and when you better not shoot. I wish that I, or someone else could give you some cast-iron guidelines but I doubt that they exist. Do your best to know the laws in your location.

And have an educated plan on who to call and what to do if that day ever happens.
 
To be fair, isn't it also likely that the cases where justice misfires are the ones we hear about the most? It doesen't seem like they make a big deal about it when a guy kills someone in self-defense and doesen't have any charges brought against him.
 
Meef,

IANAL. This is something that will vary greatly from state to state. I teach CCH in Kansas, and here we have lawful use of force statutes that protect you from criminal AND civil prosecution. In fact, if you lawfully defend yourself you can't even be arrested, it's forbidden by statute.

The real sticking point in any use of firearms is that you really are mounting an affirmative defense. In just about any situation involving the use of a firearm for self-defense, even if it wasn't fired, you have done something that would ordinarily be unlawful to do were it not for the circumstances that led you to fear for your life. That means you are basicly saying "yeah, I did 'X', but I was in fear for my life so it was ok". Many states don't have the civil lawuit protection we have here. Some hate guns so much they'll put you on trial for unlawful possession of a firearm after you successfully save your life!

I tell all my students that they need to have a sit down with a reputable criminal defense attorney. This should be considered good advice for anyone carrying a firearm for self defense regardless of what state you live in. Laws vary so much that there is really no other solution. If after talking with said attorney you aren't scared ****less then you really haven't covered the subject enough. The use of firearms for self defense is serious business. Your life depends on the decisions you make before, during, and after.

I've tried every different way to get the Attorney Generals CCH staff to commit to a 'bright line' definition of exactly when deadly force is justified under our states laws. The answer? There isn't one. Every situation will be different based on that exact set of circumstances. You and you alone will have to decide, most likely when there is very little time to do so, what the appropriate course of action is. That decision will be judged after the fact by those that have unlimited time to think about the decisions you had only seconds to make.

Practice your tactics. Know the law in your area. Constantly play the "what if" game. If you have done all that then most likely you'll make the right choices to avoid the flying feces. Have an attorney in mind beforehand just in case.



I.C.
 
I'll bet Bernard Goetz of NY could write a book about protecting yourself, i think the DA made a deal with his attackers so he could jail Goetz
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=117182
A person would have to have OJs or Berrettas' stature and money to get an attorney that could defend them for shooting someone.
Just the bail money in most states would tie up the shooters house and any lawyer who can handle the case would probably get ten thou for saying hi.
then if the shooter don't go to jail, there's always the civil suit that the shooters seem to lose. it a no win situation.
Get injured, killed or lose everything you have trying to defend it.

How many time have you saw on TV where someone defended them selves and the first thing the cops say is, "you should have called us". so the attacker and the defender both go to jail. The ACLU defends the bad guy and the good guy is going to go broke hiring lawyers.

What everything boils down to in this country now is how much money you have, if you;re filthy rich, you'll get justice, if you're the average joe, you'll spend the rest of your life paying for thr day you defended your life.
 
I'm betting that I'd enjoy being on trial for murder a lot more than I'd enjoy somebody being on trial for murdering ME.

I have a friend who's an excellent criminal defense attorney. We've talked about these things a lot. The State of Ohio has thoughtfully printed up a nice little booklet (also available online) to guide me in the use of deadly force should that become necessary.

I avoid people and places where I'm likely to encounter unneccessary problems. That having been said, if you present a credible and immediate danger to my life and limb, I'm not going to risk death in order to avoid the risk of criminal or civil proceedings against me, much less harm to you. Is that macho posturing? No; like most of my decisions, it's a cold, hard, calculated analysis of the prevailing factors.

My life means more to me than the life of anyone who endangers my life. I've given that possibility a great deal of thought and am perfectly willing to take the life of another in order to preserve my own. I don't go out of my way to harm others. Others should do likewise. If they can't or won't follow that eminintly sensible policy, extremely negative consequences attach thereto.
 
"He who has the most money wins."

This is true of most legal situations nowadays. And, few of us can afford the costs involved in any type of long-term litigation (Heck, my divorce and the ensuing custody battle cost me $30K, almost 20 years ago).

And, the real problem is not only the "criminal" case, but any civil case brought about. Even if you "win" the criminal case, you can STILL be sued in civil court (which shouldn't be allowed IMHO).

Heck, I even got into a zoning dispute with the Town I live in...Lawyer says I have a "slam-dunk" (Constitutional) case, and would win it, easily. 'Course, since the town has "unlimited" resources to fight with, it'll cost me $20K to fight it.

Now, I don't CCW (next to impossible to get a permit here anymore) but I can live with that. SO, any SD shooting will be on my property, or more likely in my house.
FWIW, a lawyer I talked to (pretty informally) advised me as follows:

When cops show up, surrender the gun used (but ONLY that gun).
When asked about the "incident" reply ONLY "I was in fear for my (or my families)life". If arrested (not just detained) call the lawyer. If detained for questioning (likely), well, you are too traumatized by the "incident" to speak about it further. If detained eventually turns into arrested, then call the lawyer.

NEVER, EVER make any statements (besides the above) without advice from the lawyer.
 
I wouldn't shoot anyone over property. Bad Kharma.
However, if your life is really in danger, what choice do you have ?
 
good point. i have my attorney's phone number memorized and programmed in my cellphone. chances are i'll never need it but if i do it will be very important to know. good thing too, he answers his phone personally 24/7. :D
 
Can't say that I think about it much. For legal issues, I lean on family members for advice and representation. This includes one corporate lawyer, one tax lawyer, two state D.A.s. Granted, they're not in my state, but close enough.

Honestly, I just feel regardless of the situation, I'll be prepared for whatever comes next. So to that end, in the case of property...I just want to sleep at night. So I'm not shooting and depending on what it is, I may not even call the police. But if my or my families life is being threatned, worrying about an impending lawsuit is not going to prevent me from pulling the trigger.
 
Two numbers in cell phone/bilfold. Then again IF I shoot anyone it will be a case where if I had not I or my wife would be dead.
I have been within couple lbs of killing someone. The ONLY reason they are not dead is they did NOT make me kill them.
 
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