hammerklavier
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Go to ballistics by the inch and compare the 380 rb vs 9mm rb, both have 2.9 inch barrels. The 9mm is better, but not by much - a mathematician knows the difference, but I doubt an assailant would.
Lcp sized 9mm?
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hammerklavier
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I also wonder about other factors, controlability, and HP expansion. 380 should have the edge in both of these areas for tiny barrel lengths.
Controlability yes, HP expansion - No, at least not according to the test results I've seen from ShootingTheBull410.
The 9mm rounds typically penetrate more and expand to a larger diameter.
The are also relatively few rounds in 380 which both penetrate past 12 inches and expand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts&index=2&list=PLgNSGOEQko_MjOCGyqlMTiM2njdQQRbdg
JohnBiltz
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What everyone wants is a 15 shot .45 the size of a LCP that recoils like a .22. The reality is everything on a hand gun is a trade off. If you want more caliber and capacity you have to have size. If you want caliber and small size you are going to get a lack of capacity and recoil. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
We also seem stuck with the existing calibers.
380 is not ideal - only recently are bullet designs able to produce adequate penetration from the 3" barrels. It used to be that FMJs zipped right through and JHPs stopped in the 9" to 10" range in gel and didn't perform well against heavy clothing.
The story of the .327 seems to indicate that the market won't support new optimized cartridges.
380 is not ideal - only recently are bullet designs able to produce adequate penetration from the 3" barrels. It used to be that FMJs zipped right through and JHPs stopped in the 9" to 10" range in gel and didn't perform well against heavy clothing.
The story of the .327 seems to indicate that the market won't support new optimized cartridges.
The Lone Haranguer
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A 9mm Luger needs, at a minimum, a slightly larger grip than a .380 because the longer cartridge needs a deeper magazine. It will also need a heavier - which means larger - slide because of the increased pressure and recoil. So I don't think you're going to be seeing any 9mms that small. The closest thing to this "ideal" appears to be the Rohrbaugh. I've never shot one, but no report I've ever read says this thing is fun to shoot at the range. I believe a gun should be, if not necessarily fun, at least not painful, injurious or even debilitating to shoot, or you won't practice with it. Perhaps because of this, Rohrbaugh has introduced a .380 in the same size gun.
SEDurbin
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I had a DB9 for a short while, called it my Bob Marley gun 'cause it be jammin'. It also made my trigger finger numb after the second or third shot due to the muzzle flip and the trigger guard slapping the bottom of my finger.
Now I've resolved myself to carrying a .380 TCP or a Glock 42 in the summer and a 9mm FNX or Keltec PF9 in the winter.
I would've liked for the DB9 to work because it was just slightly larger than the Taurus TCP and the commonality of the ammunition was nice, but it just didn't work out for me. YMMV
Now I've resolved myself to carrying a .380 TCP or a Glock 42 in the summer and a 9mm FNX or Keltec PF9 in the winter.
I would've liked for the DB9 to work because it was just slightly larger than the Taurus TCP and the commonality of the ammunition was nice, but it just didn't work out for me. YMMV
If it must be a 9mm, P290 is the best in pocketable 9mm as far as I am concerned.
Pocket pistol size without the "I'm a pocket pistol, gimme special treatment, give me more TLC" whine.
No need for a wrench for cleaning. No need for 200 round recoil spring replacement. No bullet weight restiction. No stinkin special handling caution like some others require.
Pocket pistol size without the "I'm a pocket pistol, gimme special treatment, give me more TLC" whine.
No need for a wrench for cleaning. No need for 200 round recoil spring replacement. No bullet weight restiction. No stinkin special handling caution like some others require.
I don't think Rohrbaugh produced many of the R380s
It is a very expensive gun and for the price it doesn't really do much more than the polymer 380s, you might make an argument that it has a more snag-free design and a better DA trigger than other 380s, but for most people that didn't justify the price difference between an R380 and a Kahr P380 or Ruger LCP.
If I had won the lottery I probably would have picked up a Rohrbaugh R380 just to practice with - it is the same trigger, same MOA as the R9, just minus the recoil.
But considering that you can get a polymer 380 ACP that has smaller overall dimensions, weighs 2 to 3 ounces less and costs $600 less - the R380 is a hard sell.
It is a very expensive gun and for the price it doesn't really do much more than the polymer 380s, you might make an argument that it has a more snag-free design and a better DA trigger than other 380s, but for most people that didn't justify the price difference between an R380 and a Kahr P380 or Ruger LCP.
If I had won the lottery I probably would have picked up a Rohrbaugh R380 just to practice with - it is the same trigger, same MOA as the R9, just minus the recoil.
But considering that you can get a polymer 380 ACP that has smaller overall dimensions, weighs 2 to 3 ounces less and costs $600 less - the R380 is a hard sell.
snooperman
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The vast majority of Rapes, muggings etc , occur at contact distances. For me and most people it is difficult to shoot a LCP size 9mm, like the Rohrbaugh R9 with one hand repeatedly. Firing this gun with one hand close to the side of the body is where they should be practiced from what I have read because using 2 hands that close is difficult and dangerous, as the gun can be taken away by the attacker. Most people practice with these guns with 2 hands at distances greater than this and still have trouble controlling the pistol. For me , the pocket pistol has to be a 380 LCP size gun.
snooperman
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That said, we can not predict the situation we may find ourselves in, but if we read the statistics that are available from actual confrontations, it points the way for us. Like the Loneharanger said, we need to be able to practice frequently without pain and discomfort
It "feels" easier to shoot the Rohrbaugh R9 with one hand than with two because my wrist and forearm recoil with the gun. It just takes a lot more time to get back on target shooting one handed.
When I'm shooting it two handed, I'm feeling more of the recoil.
As far as comparing the BBTI numbers for the Rohrbaugh, these are 90 and 95 grain bullets being compared to 115 and 124gr bullets and there is a substantial difference in energy.
Probably the closest comparison would be the 90gr 380 ACP Speer Gold Dot to the 102gr 9mm Federal EFMJ - 930 fps vs 985 fps that is a difference of 173 ft-lbs of energy versus 226 ft-lbs.
And it you look at the performance of the 105gr EFMJ, if does about what your average 380 ACP JHP does - about 10" of penetration through 4 layer denim in ordnance gelatin, which is very similar to what the 90gr Speer Gold Dots do.
But if you look at the best performing 9mm bullets out of a 3" barrel versus the best performing 380 ACP bullets out of a 3" barrel, the difference in penetration and expansion is significant. The best performing 380 ACP rounds penetrated to an average of 13.7 inches and expanded to an average of .413 inches, you compare that to a std pressure 147gr Federal HST out of a 3" barrel, the HSTs penetrated to an average of 13.35 inches and expanded to an average of .601 inches.
When I'm shooting it two handed, I'm feeling more of the recoil.
As far as comparing the BBTI numbers for the Rohrbaugh, these are 90 and 95 grain bullets being compared to 115 and 124gr bullets and there is a substantial difference in energy.
Probably the closest comparison would be the 90gr 380 ACP Speer Gold Dot to the 102gr 9mm Federal EFMJ - 930 fps vs 985 fps that is a difference of 173 ft-lbs of energy versus 226 ft-lbs.
And it you look at the performance of the 105gr EFMJ, if does about what your average 380 ACP JHP does - about 10" of penetration through 4 layer denim in ordnance gelatin, which is very similar to what the 90gr Speer Gold Dots do.
But if you look at the best performing 9mm bullets out of a 3" barrel versus the best performing 380 ACP bullets out of a 3" barrel, the difference in penetration and expansion is significant. The best performing 380 ACP rounds penetrated to an average of 13.7 inches and expanded to an average of .413 inches, you compare that to a std pressure 147gr Federal HST out of a 3" barrel, the HSTs penetrated to an average of 13.35 inches and expanded to an average of .601 inches.
snooperman
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Jeff Quinn shoots the Federal 105gr guard dog in the R9 with 1075 ft/sec chrono at 10 feet. Compared to the 380 gold dot out of a LCP, the Rohrbaugh seems to be better. That said, I do not believe 147 gr can be recommended in the R9.
snooperman
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We should not get bogged down in the endless debates on one caliber vs another or one bullet vs another , when shot placement is much more critical than either. The fact remains and evidence exists that the 380 and 9mm have very similar results in stopping the bad guy. Read some of the results by the research in actual shootings and confrontations done by Greg Elifritz and others. That said, I would prefer a very controllable 380 pocket pistol to a 9mm that is more difficult to shoot and is plagued with the idea that you should"shoot it little but carry it a lot".
I just got back from the range and was testing PRVI jhp in my P238 and my P3AT for reliability. I have fired this ammo in my G42 and my Bersa where it worked fine and now the same for the 3AT and P238.
The one thing I noticed is that it is a joy to shoot the P238 and could do it all day as is my experience with the G42 as well.
The P3AT works fine but 24 rounds is about all I care to shoot at one time.
A 9mm with it's significant increase in recoil in these size guns is just not practical for me.
The one thing I noticed is that it is a joy to shoot the P238 and could do it all day as is my experience with the G42 as well.
The P3AT works fine but 24 rounds is about all I care to shoot at one time.
A 9mm with it's significant increase in recoil in these size guns is just not practical for me.
WRGADog
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I own a number of small 9mm pistols including
a Nano, PM9, PPS, G26, and Solo. I prefer to pocket carry, and of these guns I find the Solo is the easiest (size and weight wise) to conceal and carry with the 6 round magazine and an 8 round mag in reserve. The Solo works flawlessly when using premium self defense ammunition recommended by Kimber.
a Nano, PM9, PPS, G26, and Solo. I prefer to pocket carry, and of these guns I find the Solo is the easiest (size and weight wise) to conceal and carry with the 6 round magazine and an 8 round mag in reserve. The Solo works flawlessly when using premium self defense ammunition recommended by Kimber.
I totally agree that the Bersa 380 and the Sig 238 are much more enjoyable to shoot than is the P3AT or the DB9 but neither of those guns is really a "pocket" gun. For ME the DB9 is about as heavy as I like to carry in my cargo pockets and the PF9 is a bit too heavy. That's sort of splitting hairs with the weight difference being just a couple of ounces but it makes a big difference in my pocket.
I consider ALL of the so called pocket guns to be the ultimate trade off. The tiny and generally light weight guns are going to, in my experience, have more felt recoil and be less pleasant to shoot. This means less time actually shooting the firearm at the range which will probably lead to accuracy issues. If there is a saving grace to the tiny guns it is that they are really just intended to be used in extremely close range encounters rather than 10-15 yard shots. I can't speak to the ballistics of the different guns or calibers but I can say what feels good in MY possession and what I would rather carry inside my pocket. I am by no means a small guy but the light weight guns slide in and out of cargo shorts with ease and don't have them sagging to my knees without the need to cinch up the belt another notch.
I consider ALL of the so called pocket guns to be the ultimate trade off. The tiny and generally light weight guns are going to, in my experience, have more felt recoil and be less pleasant to shoot. This means less time actually shooting the firearm at the range which will probably lead to accuracy issues. If there is a saving grace to the tiny guns it is that they are really just intended to be used in extremely close range encounters rather than 10-15 yard shots. I can't speak to the ballistics of the different guns or calibers but I can say what feels good in MY possession and what I would rather carry inside my pocket. I am by no means a small guy but the light weight guns slide in and out of cargo shorts with ease and don't have them sagging to my knees without the need to cinch up the belt another notch.
147gr works fine in the R9, there are plenty of people on the Rohrbaugh forum who have used 147gr round for years.
There's no doubt though that the 380 is easier to shoot, and I think ammo in the 380 ACP can be made to penetrate 13 to 14 inches, as is evidenced by Precision One's loading of Hornady's XTP.
I kind of think that the major ammo makers like Speer and Winchester just slapped their premium name on some of their 380 rounds, didn't really exert a whole lot of effort to optimize them for a 3" barrel, and didn't do nearly the amount of testing and engineering that they did with their 9mm round, as is evidenced by rounds like the PDX1 in 380 ACP performing so poorly out of a 3" barrel.
There's no doubt though that the 380 is easier to shoot, and I think ammo in the 380 ACP can be made to penetrate 13 to 14 inches, as is evidenced by Precision One's loading of Hornady's XTP.
I kind of think that the major ammo makers like Speer and Winchester just slapped their premium name on some of their 380 rounds, didn't really exert a whole lot of effort to optimize them for a 3" barrel, and didn't do nearly the amount of testing and engineering that they did with their 9mm round, as is evidenced by rounds like the PDX1 in 380 ACP performing so poorly out of a 3" barrel.
snooperman
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Of the 2 Rohrbaugh pistols made, the R380 is the one that interests me the most. There is no other 380 quite like it in the marketplace and it is quality extraordinaire. With the proper ammo it would do quite well thank you , and without excessive recoil.. Yes, there are other 380's that can do the job just as good, but they are not in the same league as the Rohrbaugh gun. It is like the difference in a Chevrolet and a Cadillac. My 2 cents... Snoop
Ruger Redhawk
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I second the Sig P-938. I got one about 9 months ago and that's the only gun I carry anymore. I carry it either IWB or in a pocket holster. I've put a few hundred rounds through it and never a hiccup. I can wear it all day and not even realize I have it on. The only negative thing is they are allot more expensive then your Ruger's and lower end guns.. We bought the wife a P-238 and she really likes it. It's been 100% reliable so far. I've gotten addicted to Sigs lately.
snooperman
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I think the SIG P238 is an excellent gun but for a CCW I prefer a double action trigger and no safety to be concerned about. I am not alone in that requirement though. I think SIG would sell far more than they do if it was DAO.
Just a story...
I had a Colt Mustang that I purchased for my wife. She had a purse with an inner pocket that fit the Mustang perfectly. So I thought "Wow - that's great, she can just keep it in this pocket."
She was going on a business trip, She watched me load the Mustang, and put it cocked and locked in the purse pocket.
When she came back, I opened the pocket and took the Mustang out, the safety was down. It was still cocked. My wife hadn't touched the pistol, hadn't even gone into that purse pocket at all. When I saw the safety off, a chill went down my spine.
I have no idea how long she was carrying the pistol around cocked with the safety off.
So no matter how well a purse pocket (or any pocket) fits a gun, it still needs a holster, IMO, a rigid holster that covers the trigger for sure. One that prevents the safety from being bumped is even better.
I've heard that the Sig has a much more positive detent than the Colt Mustang, but the other thing is, since 1985 the only gun I've really practiced with is the HK P7M8. Gripping a gun and pulling the trigger is basically what I do with the P7M8, I could learn to flip safeties up, down or around but I elected not to.
I had a Colt Mustang that I purchased for my wife. She had a purse with an inner pocket that fit the Mustang perfectly. So I thought "Wow - that's great, she can just keep it in this pocket."
She was going on a business trip, She watched me load the Mustang, and put it cocked and locked in the purse pocket.
When she came back, I opened the pocket and took the Mustang out, the safety was down. It was still cocked. My wife hadn't touched the pistol, hadn't even gone into that purse pocket at all. When I saw the safety off, a chill went down my spine.
I have no idea how long she was carrying the pistol around cocked with the safety off.
So no matter how well a purse pocket (or any pocket) fits a gun, it still needs a holster, IMO, a rigid holster that covers the trigger for sure. One that prevents the safety from being bumped is even better.
I've heard that the Sig has a much more positive detent than the Colt Mustang, but the other thing is, since 1985 the only gun I've really practiced with is the HK P7M8. Gripping a gun and pulling the trigger is basically what I do with the P7M8, I could learn to flip safeties up, down or around but I elected not to.
Ok this is where I have to disagree with you.
I have shot an R9 but not the R380. The Rohrbaugh is a very pretty pistol and very nicely finished, but when it comes down to performance it simply is not any better than most pistols and not as good as many other pistols.
If your wife Carries in a purse and your not comfortable with single action IMO she would be much better off with a Glock G42 than with a Rohrbaugh R9 or R380. Not as pretty but certainly more durable and more accurate than the R's at a much lower price.
If you want to look at and admire the pistol, buy the Rohrbaugh, but if you want performance at a much better price there are better choices.
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