Lead BB Shot for Limited Defensive Applications?

[Snowdog]

I'm considering bringing along a shotgun (pistol grip, 18.5" barrel) on vacation instead of just my CCW pistol. I like the idea of a shotgun as it's likely more effective than my M&P40c and a miss doesn't mean an errant bullet plowing through 4 walls (hopefully).

Though I use Fiocchi #4 nickel-plated buckshot at home, I'm wanting something a less penetrating for use in a hotel. I've settled on Hornady Heavy Magnum Coyote, a 3" shell that pushes 1 1/2oz of nickel-plated lead BB at 1300 fps.
I would think this would be effective at the close ranges associated with inside a hotel room, but penetrate less building material than #4 buck.

Any thoughts?

Here's a link to lead bb fired into gel. In this test, it appears most of the shot was found between 9" and 15".

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

 

[tryshoot]

If you are close it will work. I know a lot of fed law enforcement that use #6 shot all the time. " you cannot plug all those holes"

 

[LeonCarr]

I would take the Fiocchi #4 Buckshot, and do a little "What If" gaming in the hotel room to determine the safest field of fire. #4 Buckshot is the absolute minimum I would use, and the nickel plated pellets in the Fiocchi ammo penetrate better to insure the FBI Minimum 12 inches penetration in gel.

The Hornady 3 Inch Heavy Magnum Coyote BB is powerful stuff, and I would also worry that follow up shots would be slower due to longer recovery from the heavier recoil in addition to possible lack of penetration to the vitals.

I would also recommend a buttstock on your shotgun, a pistol grip folding stock at the very least. Much better control than the Pistol Grip Only (PGO) setup.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[rcmodel]

Mmmmm?

Pistol grip shotgun + 3" Mag shells doesn't add up for fast repeat shots if necessary.

Every year in the mid-west, we have a few hunters killed with 2 3/4' 1 1 1/4 oz #4 or #6 pheasant loads.

I think even that would suffice at rotted green meth-teeth, bad breath range in a motel room!!

You are talking a rat-hole wound at 5'-10' with any shotgun load.
And a 3" Mag is certainly not necessary to blow a DRT hole in someone at bad-breath distance..

rc

 

[Snowdog]

Thanks for the replies, lots of good points.

I'm not a fan of just a pistol grip either. It's something that I put together that I never really enjoyed shooting. There's muzzle flip and it seems I can't hit worth crap with it.

I have looked at this stock below and am seriously considering it. The only concern (besides adding bulk) is if my side saddle shell holder would interfere with it closing properly. I'll have to google-fu that.

 

[rcmodel]

A top-folding stock like that will bust your chops every time you fire it.
You might even bleed from a cut cheek with 3" Mags!!

Put a normal stock on it and get a gun case to carry it in the motel room.

rc

 

[Reefinmike]

Ive always liked the butler creek folders. slim and out of the way, no interference with your sights(or lack thereof) and they are very solid.

 

[Snowdog]

I already have 590 and another 500 that are full size. I don't want something that long to travel with.
What is it about a top-folding stock that would cause injury? I'm certainly not into spending money on something that draws blood. I'm not recoil shy and don't mind punishing recoil. do, however, mind bleeding.

 

[oneounceload]

I'm not recoil shy and don't mind punishing recoil.

Your local ortho surgeon is already picking out his new Mercedes that your new shoulder will buy him.......

Those metal skeletal folding stock fit no one well, will recoil up into your cheek and do the damage as described above
Just bring your pistol - easier to conceal going in and out of the room, it sounds like you are very familiar with it; in either case your ear drums are toast so that doesn't matter for comparison

 

[jmr40]

I still think your handgun is a better choice. You're overthinking this. Inside a hotel room or in your car while traveling you will likely have 1 hand tied up doing something else. A handgun that can be used 1 handed is the better choice in these situations. No one wants a bullet to overpenetrate and hit an innocent person, but I think concerns are overstated.

A long gun in addition to your handgun might be an option. I was almost 900 miles and 4 states from home visiting relatives when the Zimmerman verdict came in. I carried my Ruger 10-22 takedown under the seat in the case along with four 25 round mags just in case there were any Rodney King style riots anywhere en-route home. In addition to my G-19 and my wifes G-26 with several mags.

 

[Snowdog]

After a trip to the range, I've decided against the Heavy Magnum Coyote. I used my 590 to get an idea as to the patterns I should expect and where the Fiocchi 27-pellet #4 buck offered a nice 8-10" spread at 21', Hornady's Coyote load punched a ragged 2" hole.

Putting the target back to 25', it was still a 2" ragged hole with a couple stray pellets surrounding the hole. I do understand the wounding would be greater when those smaller pellets strike as a lead fist, but I also see how it would be easier to miss (especially with a shotgun that isn't shouldered).

I'd decided that I'll stick with the #4 Buck and I'll leave the shotgun at home.
Thanks for the advice folks.

I do plan on looking into a folding stock.

 

[Virginian]

Look up the mortality statistics for the various shotgun loads. Oops - there ain't none. A vastly over-thought subject. However, based on Mr. Cheney's experiment I think I would avoid #8 shot at anything over a few yards.

 

[JShirley]

I'm not sure why you don't just take your M4-stocked shotgun. The adjustable carbine-style stocks are much better than almost any of the old metal folders.

While I prefer a carbine to a shotgun for defensive use, and also prefer slugs to shot, inside a hotel room I'm pretty sure a deadly human threat won't be able to tell the difference between #4 Buck and BB. Your wrist, however, will probably complain about it later, if you insist on firing a 3" magnum shell from a PGO shotgun.

tryshoot, that's interesting, I've never heard that. Which Fed law enforcement uses #6?

John

 

[Al Thompson]

Snowdog, I went with a Knoxx stock and a bag for a folding chair. Looks like I'm taking a folding chair into the room.

As for ammo, the Sportsmans Warehouse here in Columbia gets the Remington 2 3/4 BB home defense rounds in every now and again. Impressive stuff.

John, I to have never heard of FLE using birdshot. Prison guards perhaps...

 

[Cosmoline]

Some years back I was doing a lot of hotel hopping and the coolest shotgun I found for that was a 20 ga Italian number called the Kimel Kamper. I'm not a big fan of PGO's, but this one was designed for firing that way and was just 20 ga. It also broke down easily for storage. With standard 00 buckshot it was actually OK at the range. Personally I'd rather have heavy buckshot in 20 ga. than No. 4 in 12. Or better yet a 20 ga. soft lead slug! The smaller pellets are lethal but not necessarily as good at *stopping* the threat. In the gel, you can see about 6 inches of solid stopping damage, with small holes bored out from there. A small hole in a major vessel or heart is probably lethal, but maybe not for 5-10 minutes.

 

[oneounceload]

I carried my Ruger 10-22 takedown under the seat in the case along with four 25 round mags just in case there were any Rodney King style riots anywhere en-route home

And so you make a wrong turn into the wrong street - how are you going to get that .22lr rifle out, put together and loaded compared to having your pistol ready?

I would rather have a decent-sized handgun cartridge at the ready over the .22

 

[goon]

Actually, just based on the anecdote about the Coyote load, I might consider that as an HD load.
I want to have to aim the load. If your load spreads so much that you don't have to aim it, that is a recipe for sending stray pellets with the downrange energy of a .22LR, .22 WMR, or .32 ACP through a wall and at something you didn't intend to shoot. I want all my pellets hitting my attacker, expending energy on stopping the attack, and not expending energy harming innocent bystanders.
I don't like the proverbial "movie" shotgun type of pattern. Tighter is better.

 

[MattShlock]

Within the ranges you indicate lead BB is probably the best compromise of trauma and penetration available. That said, I would probably not use a fast 3" Magnum shell. Too much. But unfortunately they don't make the standard 2-3/4" anymore except...

...in an HD round. I think one couples them with #2 shot also and frankly I'd recommend those.

Go practice with Remington #2 shot shells (useful at apartment/hotel room range too IMO) and load the others for actual defense use...

 

[303tom]

I use BB`s, #2`s or #4`s for HD................

 

[C0untZer0]

For that block shown in the OP, the results aren't calibrated, and the test BB had some significant over-penetration IIRC.

 

[BrobeeBiter]

For that block shown in the OP, the results aren't calibrated, and the test BB had some significant over-penetration IIRC.

Hey there,

I'm the guy that did the ballistics gel testing and took the photograph referenced in the original post. From my notes, the calibration bb penetrated 12.9cm, and had a velocity of 629 fps. Also from my notes, the average penetration of the shotgun bb's was 11 inches. Those with Duncan M's book "bullet penetration" can make whatever calibration corrections they feel are necessary.

As an aside, I've recently got it in my mind that I'm going to re-do the big bad shotgun ballistics gel testing extravaganza...this time in a series of youtube videos! I've spent the past few weeks building a special refrigerator and casting gelatin blocks - am hoping this weekend to get out and get started, and I've got a big box full of different bb and #4 buck loads to start with! High on the list of stuff I'm interested in seeing are those nickel plated lead bb's in that 3 inch hornady coyote load referenced by the OP.

Rather than hijack this thread though, I'll post a new one with some details and teaser photos...

Cheers,

Brobee

 

[MattShlock]

Hey there,

I'm the guy that did the ballistics gel testing and took the photograph referenced in the original post. From my notes, the calibration bb penetrated 12.9cm, and had a velocity of 629 fps. Also from my notes, the average penetration of the shotgun bb's was 11 inches. Those with Duncan M's book "bullet penetration" can make whatever calibration corrections they feel are necessary.

As an aside, I've recently got it in my mind that I'm going to re-do the big bad shotgun ballistics gel testing extravaganza...this time in a series of youtube videos! I've spent the past few weeks building a special refrigerator and casting gelatin blocks - am hoping this weekend to get out and get started, and I've got a big box full of different bb and #4 buck loads to start with! High on the list of stuff I'm interested in seeing are those nickel plated lead bb's in that 3 inch hornady coyote load referenced by the OP.

Rather than hijack this thread though, I'll post a new one with some details and teaser photos...

Cheers,

Brobee

You only need to test 00 Buckshot ya know! LOL

What can the methodical, truth-seeking, intellectualy honest do to help?

PS: use Purolator!

 

[Snowdog]

Snowdog, I went with a Knoxx stock and a bag for a folding chair. Looks like I'm taking a folding chair into the room.

Clever indeed.
I was originally planning on haunting a couple pawn shops for a violin case or something along those lines, but a fabric case typical of a folding chair, something quite native in the beach envirionment sounds like a far better idea. I'll have to remember that one for next time.

Thanks for the advice and recommendations, folks. I did in fact over-think this one. The Sig 238HD (.380acp) and Springfield XDm 4.5 (.40S&W) I'm depending on now will be plenty. There may have been some situation were my Keltec P32 would have been well welcomed for pocket carry, but no big deal.

Thanks again folks.

 

[gamestalker]

For my SD loads, which I load my own of, is usually 1 -1/2 oz. or 1-3/8 oz. #4 copper plated buck or plain lead. It's not much of a load as it seems, but it has patterned well for me at 15', and velocities have been very good. I like 00 buck too, and also a slug some where in the magazine often. Where I now live is a very rural area, so I never know if I might be needing 00 or a slug to reach out a bit further, which is why I make sure I have a few of those deeper penetrating options.

GS

 

[PabloJ]

I would take BK shot. Juries like to cater to cripples. A guy dressed in suit sitting in wheelchair is going to cost you. I guess that is ok if you don't mid living in "cardboard box".