Lead bullet loads for 9mm? Which guns shoot naked 9mm?

[MutinousDoug]

I tried to hijack the P-938 reload thread but got nowhere so I'm asking here about lead bullet practice reloads for the 9mm in general.
Some years ago I reloaded for my Dad's old Model 39 with 115-124gr lead truncated cone bullets with good results. (That gun is a jewel, however.) I tumbled those like I do all purchased (gun show 9mm, 38 spl, .45ACP) lead bullets in Lee liquid alox at reasonable velocities for minimal leading and adequate accuracy for Bullseye club league.
First, are lead bullets safe in the Sig p-938? 2nd, Can they be made to shoot well?
I have a Bersa Thunder 380 whose throat is so long that lead bullets leave a mess of lead behind that my Colt Mustang digests without a burp; I think the Bersa chamber or leade allows gas cutting at ignition before the bullet reaches the rifling.
Missouri Bullet Co polymer coated bullets shoot with much less leading in the Bersa than naked lead but not without some attention to the barrel throat after each session.
Does anybody other than me bother loading lead 9mmPB or Kurtz?
Thanks

 

[Slamfire]

From a little research that I have done, polygon barrels in Glocks and HK's are positively dangerous with lead bullets. These barrels lead foul heavily, apparently, and then subsequent lead bullet loads have blown the barrels.

Leading is a problem that I did not appreciate until recently. From Glock threads I found that leading does raise pressures. Others have claimed blown or ringed barrels. This has not been a problem for me, for I am shooting rather low pressure loads most of the time, and I have been shooting out the leading with my low pressure jacketed loads. The cartridges I am thinking of are 38 Special, 44 Special, 45 LC, 45 ACP. Even my 357 Mag and 44 Mag loads tend to 75% of maximum loads and so I have not been having pressure issues with leading or clearing the lead out with jacketed. I also have the habit of clearing the lead with jacketed bullets when the point of aim starts changing enough to be noticeable. So I am most likely getting rid of the leading before it can accumulate to cause high pressure problems.

Nine millimeter auto pistols don't provide the case head support that revolvers have and the pressure of a 9mm round is around 35,000 to 40,000 psia. If, as in the Glock, leading in the throat causes the 40 Kpsia round to go to 60 kpsia, the case sidewall could rupture and cause all sorts of issues, from ruptured chambers.

I don't know why your particular pistol is leading, possible the lead is very hard. I have been shooting cast lead bullets around 13-15 BHM and having low level of leading with the powders I use. I shoot a lot of Bullseye which is a fast powder. I think it because the relatively soft lead (hard cast is around 18 BHM) upsets and seals the bore. I did have severe lead fouling with Blue Dot and my 357 Magnums. For the exact same velocity, cases, bullets, Blue Dot really fouled the barrel compared with AA#9 and 2400. I believe it was due to Blue Dot not upsetting the bullet.

You need to clear the lead out and you need to figure out a way to stop leading. I greased the heck out of some cast rifle bullets, in 45-70. I dipped them in Lubriplate 130 and I was very surprised to find no evidence of leading in the M1873 Trapdoor in which they were fired. I have been oiling my 45 ACP rounds in 2700 Bullseye. This is messy but it helps cycle the M1911 with low pressure cartridges. I am noticing, at the end of the day, that my cast bullets loads have zero lead fouling after 180 rounds with oiled ammunition. I do notice the barrel has a shiny interior so some of the oil I am dribbling on the rounds is being blown up the barrel and lubricating the barrel.

 

[walnut1704]

I load lead for the all three of the 9x's.

In 9x19 I've found the heavier the better, I didn't have much luck with 115's. 124gr was better but the 147gr was the best in my Springfield 1911 9mm.

Pretty much the same with my other 9x19's although the performance difference was not as pronounced. In addition 115's tend to shoot low for me in fixed sight guns while 124's were dead on and the 147's gave a bit of a six o'clock hold. The Springfield has adjustable sights so it doesn't care. As I am used to a bit of a six o'clock anyway the 147's are my choice.

I also load lead for the .380 and the Makarov and have found lead gives equal or better performance, especially in the .380 where accuracy was vastly improved over factory bulk ammo. The Makarov is kind of a wash but I have not put as much time in that one.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

From a little research that I have done, polygon barrels in Glocks and HK's are positively dangerous with lead bullets. These barrels lead foul heavily, apparently, and then subsequent lead bullet loads have blown the barrels.

I thought I'd start off by correcting this, Polygon barrel are completely safe to shoot lead in all day long as long as it's done right, the problem lies in when things are done wrong the problems compound faster.

No matter what you are shooting lead bullets in Fit is King so make sure you know your bore size and find the right diameter lead bullet to push down it.

 

[BSA1]

From a little research that I have done, polygon barrels in Glocks and HK's are positively dangerous with lead bullets. These barrels lead foul heavily, apparently, and then subsequent lead bullet loads have blown the barrels.

This myth needs to die.

Glock barrels do not lead any worse than rifled barrels. What leads to problems is not cleaning the lead from the barrel before shooting jacketed bullets. Not cleaning the lead out before shooting creates higher pressure.

What we (myself and other Glock shooters that shoot lead bullets) have discovered is the lead actually cleans out of the barrel easier than conventional barrels with rifling.

I shoot a lot of 115 gr. lead bullets sized .356" in all of my 9mm pistols using the same load. The amount of leading varies according to the roughness of the barrel with a P-89 being the worse.

I actually shoot cast lead bullets in all of my handguns about 98% of the time.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I picked up the following somewhere and saved it. One pro I've talked with uses lead in his Glocks, both for practice and in competition. I am not the source for the following, nor an expert -- I'm just sharing.

HARD CAST BULLETS IN POLYGONAL BARRELS

True hard cast bullets (as opposed to lead swaged bullets) that are properly lubed will not lead foul polygonal barrels any more than any other type of rifled barrel. Ever since Glock Corporation warned to not use lead bullets in their pistols with polygonal barrels, a myth that hard cast bullets will lead foul polygonal barrels has become wide spread in some parts of the firearms world. However, the myth is untrue. Hard cast bullets are not "lead" bullets. (See my article on "Dangerous Pure Lead Cowboy Bullets")

Pure lead or nearly pure lead bullets have a tendency to foul any barrel, not just polygonal barrels. Years ago, when several Glock pistols experienced cracked barrels because of fouling build up from shooting pure lead bullets, Glock issued a warning not to shoot lead bullets in their polygonal barrels. From that warning, the myth that you should not shoot hard cast bullets in polygonal barrels was born.

Provided you use real hard cast bullets with good lube, you can shoot them all you like in polygonal barrels without causing lead fouling deposits at the front of your chamber or anywhere else in the barrel. If you are concerned about lead fouling from hard cast bullets, all you have to do is to clean your barrel after firing hard cast bullets and before firing any jacketed bullets. However, in my experience, quality hard cast bullets won't foul a Glock polygonal barrel or any other type of barrel but lead bullets normally will.​

__________________________

If you reload and feel you must shoot lead, but remain wary of using lead in a Glock barrel, aftermarket barrels with lands and grooves are available and most of the prices are low enough ($125-$175 +/-) that you''d save enough shooting lead pretty quickly to offset the purchase price.

If you're concerned, but don't want to buy an aftermarket barrel -- and the information above doesn't help put your mind at ease, just don't do it.

Do a Google search on "USING LEAD IN POLYGONAL BARRELS" and see what you find -- and note that most of the folks warning against using lead aren't talking from personal experience, while many tell you how it can be done safely are speaking from -- in some cases -- years of experience.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

In 9x19 I've found the heavier the better, I didn't have much luck with 115's. 124gr was better but the 147gr was the best in my Springfield 1911 9mm.

I need to try some 147s.
I got so frustrated with the 124s I sold my mold and have been buying plated bullets.
I did get it to improve somewhat, playing with different lubes BHN.

I may eventually try and pick up a 147 gr mold. I'd like to. Currently 9mm is the only handgun bullet I do not cast.

 

[RecoilRob]

I agree with the sentiment that the heavy 9mm's work better when cast...and the Lyman 147 is the best one I've found. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/24...m-356-diameter-147-grain-flat-nose-bevel-base

These shoot very well in all my guns, and never lead a bit. Nice thing is you can run them at full power without breaking much over 1000fps where the lighter bullets needed downloading for me or they were just terrible. This boat-tail flies nicely too, so in the carbine they'll reach out past 100yds with no problem and excellent accuracy.

 

[Jim NE]

I've bought LRN 9mm rounds only by accident, and they always seem to have worked without issue in the guns I've owned. This includes Sigma, P-95 Ruger, Taurus, CZ 75 compact, SR9c Ruger, etc.

But, since I don't reload, I don't seek out LRN 9mm ammo, so I don't have tons of experience with it. But all the ammo of this type I've purchased has been factory reloaded.

 

[JohnKSa]

The Glock In Competition, a book by Robin Taylor, contains a chapter addressing the Glock/lead bullet issue in detail. That chapter was written by a licensed Forensic Engineer (investigated accidents/mechanical failures for a living) who began investigating the problem after he blew up a Glock pistol using lead bullets.

In the course of the investigation, the chapter's author fired approximately 5,000 rounds through Glock pistols while taking pressure/velocity measurements to characterize the problem.

The information presented is pretty thorough and explains why some people seem to get away with shooting lead in Glock barrels and why some don't. It's worth pointing out that the author fired around 23,000 rounds of lead bullet reloads through his Glock pistol before he unknowingly pushed just a little too far in one shooting session and ended up with pistol pieces instead of a pistol.

The book is worth the read for people who are interested in this issue.

 

[highlander 5]

I have 7 9mm pistols and all shoot reasonably well. 3 of them out shoot the others a Baretta with a Bar Sto barrel,RIA Tactical and Springfield Armory RO 1911. These 3 have barrels with a 1in16 twist rather than the 1 in 10 that most other pistols have.

 

[Thompsoncustom]

Just get the right sized coated bullet and you'll be good to go. You cant push a powdercoated bullet fast enough from a 9mm to cause issues tho most commerical coating arent powdercoat they still work pretty good.